Kug Maky Ung Ryu Ninjitsu

[Bester]

Why is anyone (myself included) wasting their time on this? We have a mish-mash martial art with absolutely no true connection to existing arts which will probably never be seen by anyone not related to this gentleman. I'll admit the whole nonsensical concept has the appeal of a train wreck but sooner or later we need to look away. Kug Maky Tuna Roll is basically the Tinkerbell of martial arts. If we don't believe in it or pay attention to it, it sputters out and dies. Isn't it time to put Tink out of our misery? Ignore it and it goes away.

Because sometimes, it's ok to enjoy a train wreck, and sometimes its ok to help it derail further. Case in point, you have someone who thinks anything he can't do is flawed and therefore needs to be fixed. Even I aint vain enough to think that, and I'm pretty vain. Then again, I can't flip a truck tire so I guess that means it's not a good way to train.

I saw this other way once though. Looked good, just trying to remember which Rocky movie I saw it in. Running in the snow, that's good fight training right?


Look ma! I'm training in Kug Maki Unnnnng Ryu!
Iron Colon Technique!

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Well, there's been a lot of action here in the last 24 hours or so... let's see if we can sum up (and hopefully put this to rest). To begin with, I might quote myself:

"Size vs Skill - well, obviously size is the biggest determining factor in the development and ability of any martial artist; after all, Ueshiba, Funakoshi, Kano, Mifune, Sokaku Takeda et al. were all giants, with big rippling muscles, right? I mean, Ueshiba Sensei was what, almost 5 whole feet tall? Hmmm, might have to re-think that..."

"The terms "jutsu" and "jitsu" are different words, different kanji, and have different meanings. "Jutsu" has a translation in most Kanji dictionaries I have read of "practical art", whereas "jitsu" is translated as "truth", or "real" (sorry, my computer doesn't like me trying to post the kanji themselves...), and is never used to describe a Japanese artform - in fact, the only readily acceptable use of this mis-spelling is Brazilian JiuJitsu, which has been moving away from it's Japanese roots since Maeda first taught the Gracies and Machados nearly a century ago. Oh, and for the record, I am refering to the Kodansha Kanji Learners Dictionary, edited by Jack Halpern for my reference if you want to check them out yourself.

The site refered to by Tsuki Yomi seems to be more of a "well, we don't mind how you say it" kind of approach, rather than an in depth look at the language, but if you want to check it out, try to find a copy of Tanemura Sensei's old Panther Jujutsu series, number 6 (History and Traditions), where he illustrates in no uncertain terms the fact that the words are pronounced JU JUtsu, not JIU JUtsu, JU JItsu, or any other combination. He shows the different characters, and explains the different meanings pretty well there."

Emilio, the facts are: You have no training in ninjutsu (see above to see why we are so definate on the spelling...) whatsoever. None. Zilch. Nada. Accept that your imaginings do not equate with knowledge, understanding or ability.

Your only actual background is in competitive arts and a bit of military training. If you ever visited an authentic school, you may notice that there is no competitive aspect to ninjutsu training at all. So your background, limited as it is, has absolutely no relevance to ninjutsu, yet you seem to feel that it shows you understand ninjutsu better than those who train it? You even go so far as to imply that it trumps such meaningless things as historical accounts of genuine ninjutsu, scrolls of authentic ninjutsu tactics, techniques, and training, and then state that although there are schools near you, you have not the time, money, nor desire to visit and train?!

And, for what it's worth, even Hayes has stated on a number of occasions that his research into the Himalayan spiritual traditions has very little to do with ninjutsu. He describes it as "his own personal Stephen Hayes-trip" (for citation, see the interviews in the final chapters of volume 4 and 5 of his Ninja Warrior series of books...). The story goes that Hatsumi Sensei off-handedly mentioned that Takamatsu mentioned at one time that the Shugenja may have had some influence of the Ninja. Hayes asked about it, and Hatsumi basically said "If you're interested, go find out what you want to know". As an aside, there have been numerous occasions where senior Japanese instructors have been asked by young, impressionable Western students about things like Mikkyo, usually to get the illusion-shattering answer "What's Mikkyo?"

As for "our instistance that Ninjutsu has to be Japanese to be authentic, when it 'clearly' has Himalayan origins...", the musical traditions of Jazz and Blues have their roots in the African and slave music of those brought to the Americas, but it's very hard to argue that those two forms of music are anything but American. The origins may be removed, but the locale in which the arts matured and developed into their own expression is considered their homeland.

So what we end up with is a 38 year old man, with children of his own, no less, still living in a childish fantasy world, having bounced from school to school, never staying long enough to really either internalise the art, or challenge your own fantasy images of martial art training, reading old books, only really taking in anything that you can twist or shape to fit your fantasy, and ignoring or attacking (by pretending to be attacked) anything that doesn't fit. Pretty classic projection, really (as has been remarked).

Emilio, I wish you well in visiting Brians' training group... but I'm not sure about how he's going to feel about it. After all, he DOES train in authentic Ninjutsu, you are going to him to learn, and you're not taking advantage of this opportunity to get real first-hand knowledge of the art you imagine you know something about? Honestly, if you were to come to my school, you would not invited in.

So, to sum up:

No training in Ninjutsu.
No training in anything close to Ninjutsu.
No knowledge of anything authentic to do with Ninjutsu.
No willingness to learn or train in Ninjutsu.
Limited experience in sport grappling systems, sport systems being the antithesis of Ninjutsu.
No knowledge of how to spell Ninjutsu (hopefully this one is put to bed now).
No willingness to discuss your system in any detail, as you feel that you "don't need to prove anything".
No real testing of your system (just some references to "what feels right" and "what works for you" in the guise of competitive arts and randori [ps, judo term, by the way, just been adopted by a number of others] which has little if anything to do with the realities of street or battlefield violence.
A childs creation created by a child (because this is only based in your childhood fantasies... after all, that's where you got the name, pretty big clue, there).

That should pretty well sum up the authentic side of things... Care to comment?

 

[MJS]

LOL.

Based on what? A few youtube videos of KATA? Haha. Damn, all those fights I got in when I was bouncing I must have actually LOST cuz my technique was too complex. In fact, I'm probably DEAD right now, and don't realize it.

LOL, interestingly enough, I asked a similar question yesterday and I don't believe I got an answer. IMHO, it makes a big difference if you're watching youtube, or learning first hand.

An example....I've seen youtube clips....and I've also seen Greg Kowalski live, in person, doing his stuff. Huge, huge difference.

On a side note, my Arnis teacher rents space at Gregs school, so that is how I know him. Great guy and if I had more time, I'd love to train with him.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Why is anyone (myself included) wasting their time on this? We have a mish-mash martial art with absolutely no true connection to existing arts which will probably never be seen by anyone not related to this gentleman. I'll admit the whole nonsensical concept has the appeal of a train wreck but sooner or later we need to look away. Kug Maky Tuna Roll is basically the Tinkerbell of martial arts. If we don't believe in it or pay attention to it, it sputters out and dies. Isn't it time to put Tink out of our misery? Ignore it and it goes away.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I joined Martial Talk for a few different reasons.
1. I wanted to help clear up misunderstandings about the Jizaikan and aiki ninjutsu (which my first few posts were very emotional and not well thought out; i was so immature).

2. I like to discuss martial arts with all sorts of people to see where they are on their path and see if they have reached the same conclusions. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't (like emilio)

Although I don't agree with emilio, I find it interesting to try and understand why some people see things one way and others see it in a different way.

 

[emiliozapata]

Posted by Chris Parker is the below, with bolding my emphasis

Limited experience in sport grappling systems, sport systems being the antithesis of Ninjutsu.
No knowledge of how to spell Ninjutsu (hopefully this one is put to bed now).
No willingness to discuss your system in any detail, as you feel that you "don't need to prove anything".
No real testing of your system (just some references to "what feels right" and "what works for you" in the guise of competitive arts and randori [ps, judo term, by the way, just been adopted by a number of others] which has little if anything to do with the realities of street or battlefield violence.

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

 

[Kreth]

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

So rather than address the points in his (and other's) posts, you'll take a shot at the Bujinkan?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll watch the full video later, but the minutes worth I did see looked to be -traditional- sword work, which is 1 part of the Buj. system. Not the whole thing. I trained Modern Arnis for a few years...not likely I'd get jumped by someone swinging a rattan stick in icy cold NY.....but.......

 

[shesulsa]

Why is anyone (myself included) wasting their time on this? We have a mish-mash martial art with absolutely no true connection to existing arts which will probably never be seen by anyone not related to this gentleman. I'll admit the whole nonsensical concept has the appeal of a train wreck but sooner or later we need to look away. Kug Maky Tuna Roll is basically the Tinkerbell of martial arts. If we don't believe in it or pay attention to it, it sputters out and dies. Isn't it time to put Tink out of our misery? Ignore it and it goes away.

My counter-question would be this: if he intends to only train alone or teach his kids this stuff, why is he here arguing the viability of his training? Why not be HONEST about what he's doing? He said he doesn't need a certificate or "scroll" yet justifies what he's doing from a Hayes book. He says he doesn't need an organized art form yet ... organized an art form. Either he's deluded or a troll.

If the first, he needs to know what he's gotten himself into before his guts are handed to him in teh str33t. If the second, he needs to know we're on to him.

It's that simple.

 

[shesulsa]

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

There is a wise saying: "Time will either promote you or expose you."

I've seen that video before and I know where you got it. So ... if you're here to bash the Booj, go start a thread bashing the Booj and get it over with. If you think the contents of that video are the mainstay of traditional training, then you are wrong. Traditional arts will preserve older ways of fighting - the ways we are no longer accustomed to in this newer age of combat, hence training will be arduous - as well as adapting to newer ways of combat. Because somewhere, somebody will still have to fight with whatever they can get their hands on. A tractor-tire flipper would likely know this, so ... I'll expect no argument regarding this from you again.

Finally - if this is what you think of ninjutsu ... WHY (this is one of the questions you have continually avoided) ARE YOU USING THE TERM IN THE NAME OF YOUR ART????

I'm going to say it now. Are you ready?

You have no art. You have some ideas, you have some opinions and you have some troubles.

If you really care about training, find someone who will teach you and if you can't, find out why they won't teach you.

If you want to pass something of worth on to your kids, train with people who have been there, done that and know the wheel need not be reinvented, rather adjustments made for each person's physical ability and stature. A good teacher will know this and how to apply it. Teach your kids the appropriate challenge of authority, not just to blindly challenge authority as that will fall upon deaf ears.

Regardless of your true purpose on MartialTalk.com, I sincerely wish you enlightenment, good quality training and ease of path.

Good luck.

 

[MJS]

Posted by Chris Parker is the below, with bolding my emphasis

Limited experience in sport grappling systems, sport systems being the antithesis of Ninjutsu.
No knowledge of how to spell Ninjutsu (hopefully this one is put to bed now).
No willingness to discuss your system in any detail, as you feel that you "don't need to prove anything".
No real testing of your system (just some references to "what feels right" and "what works for you" in the guise of competitive arts and randori [ps, judo term, by the way, just been adopted by a number of others] which has little if anything to do with the realities of street or battlefield violence.

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

And the cuddle junky, Gracie nutriders bash ANYTHING that is not MMA. I wonder what they'd think of you, your 'art' and your video clip. Now, for the record, regarding my above comments....I train in BJJ. However, the difference between myself and the nutriders, is that I don't walk around with my head in my rear, and believe that BJJ has all the answers, like the nutriders do. It has limits, just like everything else. Difference is, I admit it, I accept it..they don't!

I highly doubt that any of those clowns on that other forum have stepped foot in a real X-Kan dojo, because their ego is too inflated to let them do otherwise.

So, I'll close with this....your attempt is a cheap shot, which in reality, serves no real purpuse, because like the nutriders, you yourself have no real knoweldge of the XKan arts. You think you know it all, from a book, dvd or youtube clip. If that is what you base your opinions on, that is sad and pathetic.

Like that old saying, you can't judge a book by its cover. You sir, are doing just that.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

Lets be fair with the video. It shows Bujinkan practicers working on drills and learning technique. The rest of the video shows randori and actual fights. I would say huge difference between the 2.

 

[MarkBarlow]

My counter-question would be this: if he intends to only train alone or teach his kids this stuff, why is he here arguing the viability of his training? Why not be HONEST about what he's doing? He said he doesn't need a certificate or "scroll" yet justifies what he's doing from a Hayes book. He says he doesn't need an organized art form yet ... organized an art form. Either he's deluded or a troll.

If the first, he needs to know what he's gotten himself into before his guts are handed to him in teh str33t. If the second, he needs to know we're on to him.

It's that simple.

All of what you say is true but has anyone's opinion changed one iota from the back and forth going on? Pseudo-Soke is still firmly convinced of his moral superiority and spelling prowess and just about everyone else is still convinced that he's misguided/misinformed/misleading/mistaken. Granted, it was initially entertaining but it's been stuck in the same groove from way too long.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Posted by Chris Parker is the below, with bolding my emphasis

Limited experience in sport grappling systems, sport systems being the antithesis of Ninjutsu.
No knowledge of how to spell Ninjutsu (hopefully this one is put to bed now).
No willingness to discuss your system in any detail, as you feel that you "don't need to prove anything".
No real testing of your system (just some references to "what feels right" and "what works for you" in the guise of competitive arts and randori [ps, judo term, by the way, just been adopted by a number of others] which has little if anything to do with the realities of street or battlefield violence.

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

Nice video. Shows how ignorant you, and those nut riders really are. Especially since you can't even manage to do the most basic of moves, seems the malfunction is with you son, not the art. Fess up and admit it. You're just here pulling our legs, and wanking to this whole mess. I can hear you *fwap* *fwap* *fwap*

Lets see, the video which was put together by a bunch of homophobes who get off on rolling around on the ground cuddling each other while calling anything they can't do or understnd crap. (Hey, sounds familiar. Why aren' you over there posting your magicalfart, err I mean "art"?). This magical "debunkment" of the Booj. I see people working drills, I see people practicing. Last I knew, working out in a safe controlled manner allows one to actually finish training, rather than take months off to heal broken bones. Not so much "keepin it real homie" but it is smarter.

Then again, maybe you do have your kids roll with each other. Do you teach them safely, or encourage them to yank and crank until you hear bones crack and sinew twang? Yell at them to "man up", and "feel no pain HooHaaa"?


You're a second rate washed up ground pounder muscle headed cuddlier, who can't hack real training, who needs to live out your delusion of adequacy through childhood fantasy and play acting. Rather a sorry state to be in. I would check into the local VA hospital mental eval ward if I were you. Sounds like you be broken.


You're a god damn joke boy. Ain't no one here gonna take you seriously, though we will keep laughing a you and pointing at you, and laughing some more. You're the funniest joke to wander through here since Soke Calkins, Rick Tew and Monkey. You're like the martial arts version of "Meet the Spartans", only lamer.


Now, run along and put on your black pjs. It's playtime kiddo.

 

[Raynac]

Posted by Chris Parker is the below, with bolding my emphasis



I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

HAHAHA XD! is that your view of ninjutsu!!! what that guy said up there, those people were in the stages of learning techiques. i sincerly hope that your sons cannot do your moves within seconds after they are first shown, if so there maybe something wrong with the techniques. and when they get into a real fight it may let them down

all of that aside though, what i ended the statement with is all that matters in the end. if your sons get into a real-fight are you sure the techniques are going to work? if so then I personally have no problem with your art.

of course its not real ninjutsu. but I have no problem with you calling it that... but you should let your sons know that its not true ninjutsu, maybe not now but when they are older. you don't want them to go off making a martial art school when there older and you have passed on. not one called ninjutsu anyways. just because you don't want to sell it doesn't mean they wont want to.

of course the other peoples points about you taking the name ninjustu is valid, I can see were you are comming from with how ninjutsu was created. but i will only say this on the topic. ninjutsu WAS created, its over done with.

when you make somthing you should make it your own. i think if you just took that word out of the name the people here would settle down, even if only a little bit. This is YOUR style take ninjutsu out of it and go on teaching it with pride that you didn't need to tack on a well known name to make it good. and trust me, your kids will enjoy it even if it isn't ninjustu. becaues in the end kids won't care they will be happy just learning to fight from the're father.

but just one thing. I know people have been attacking your new art repeatedly but please, be the bigger man and don't attack back. I was so angry when i saw that post with the link i almost decieded not to stick up for you. if you show ignorance like that again i may join there side.

 

[Flying Crane]

You're a god damn joke boy. Ain't no one here gonna take you seriously, though we will keep laughing a you and pointing at you, and laughing some more. You're the funniest joke to wander through here since Soke Calkins, Rick Tew and Monkey. You're like the martial arts version of "Meet the Spartans", only lamer.

Hey, I remember Monkey. He was a never-ending source of amusement.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Yes, Monkey was rather fun to play with. Such a charming chap, so full of vim and viger. Held in such high esteme by all those who's arts he was "Guardian" of. Actually, he was quite the jester. The JKD people seemed to think him a bit of a prat and all.

But I like this Emilio fellow. Why, I'd love to have morning tea with him. You see, well, it is said, that civilised man seeks out good and intelligent company, so that, through learned discourse, he may rise above the savage and closer to God. Personally, however, I like to start the day with a total dickhead to remind me I'm best.

Reading this thread and his arguments has certainly been an excellent reminder.

Loved the smilie, seemed so fitting here, what with that smell of troll that seems to linger here.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

This thread has been locked once and could be so again if continued personal shots continue!

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Assistant Administrator-

 

[Aiki Lee]

I think that there is too much disrespect in this thread. If you don't agree with emilio fine. If you want to argue against him, fine. But personal attacks and insults are not only rude and unnecessary, but dishonorable as well.

Emilio:

I sincerly apologize to you for the insulting coments others have so ignorantly thrown you way.

 

[Chris Parker]

Posted by Chris Parker is the below, with bolding my emphasis

Limited experience in sport grappling systems, sport systems being the antithesis of Ninjutsu.
No knowledge of how to spell Ninjutsu (hopefully this one is put to bed now).
No willingness to discuss your system in any detail, as you feel that you "don't need to prove anything".
No real testing of your system (just some references to "what feels right" and "what works for you" in the guise of competitive arts and randori [ps, judo term, by the way, just been adopted by a number of others] which has little if anything to do with the realities of street or battlefield violence.

I didn't want to ever post this video, but I think Chris should see it

It speaks to what he has stated above.

Hey, Emilio.

Seen the clip. The clip has, in fact, been thoroughly discussed (in previous threads). The entire clip is out of context, and designed to denigrate the Bujinkan training methods with no real context. That said, I'm not Bujinkan, even though that is where our school began close to 30 years ago, so I'm actually all for legitimate, open minded, constructive appraisal of ANY system.

Where you seem to fall down is in two different areas: First, you fail completely to engage an open mind and honestly look at what is being done by those attempting to help you, or even your own system. Second, and here is where you may find the majority of what you term insulting behaviour, is that you have no respect or understanding of ninjutsu, let alone any knowledge of it aside from a few childhood fantasies, yet at the same time insist on (mis)using the name many others have literally spent decades building and developing. I'm through being nice here. Stay if you want to learn, otherwise you are adding nothing. So please, either open your mind and accept that many very experienced people have tried and wanted to help you in your journey, and you have never shown even the slightest interest in the education you have been offered, nor any respect to the practitioners who offered it. Please do not take my signature to refer to you, it is there to any others who read this and to the forum in general.

 

[Chris Parker]

To everyone else (esp. Brian et al.)

That last one was a bit heavier-handed than I meant, just felt I needed to respond to Emilio's non-answer. Sorry for any offence.