Kooga ryu Ninjitsu Oral Tradition

[Kizaru]

Hi All,
I've been doing a little research on the Koga ryu Ninjitsu tradition, and found information on the Hachi Tengu that Sojobow has been talking about. It was mentioned in the book I found that along with "Dim Mak" the Tanaka family was known to be skilled at "Kancho-jutsu" ,"Nigiri Pe" and "Chanbara" techniques. My girlfriend, whose family is from Mie Ken (area that was once known as Iga/Koga) has also had these skills passed down in her family for generations. If the people claiming to be carrying on Senzo Tanaka's tradition could tell us here in a public forum (kuden not necessary)a little about these skills, it would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that what they claim is true. Maybe give an example of hand formations in Kancho-jutsu or Nigiri Pe techniques?
:asian::asian::asian:

 

[sojobow]

Hi All,

I'll play. But remember, in America, we speak English so it's not fair for you to use these Japanese terms without the English equivalents (sp.l). You aren't serious, but, what the heck. Not many are. I'm gonna take em out-a-orda for the heck of it. Lets see now.

(1)I like the way you purposefully misspell Koga as Kooga. Not bad to spell it like it sounds phonetically. I spell Koga the same way every now and then just to see who'se paying attention. Iga too with "eeeeze."

(2)Still looking into the Hachi Tengu. Does any current school (Ryu-ha) teach what the Yamabushi and Sohei taught to these Ninja? Is their teachings the same as what we learn today in our Ryu? Easier to find out than I once believed.

(3)Not sure of the hand formations you speak of in the art of espionage. There are a few. In fact, quite a few. We can make them up as we go.

(4)Dim Mak? Any modern school (in America) is familiar with the term. Some teach more exhausting techniques than others. Same as Atemi in that we all practice them in some form. Dim Mak is a very misunderstood art.

(5)Tanabe Tetsundo - Go Shin - do.

(6)I do not discuss the man whose name you mention nor do I like the fish dish you speak of.

Interesting trap! Interesting to see where it leads us.

 

[Enson]

i'm so glad we don't use much japanese in our school!:idunno:

 

[sojobow]

i'm so glad we don't use much japanese in our school!:idunno:

I'm with you on this point also. Then, you come to find out that a lot of it is really Chinese to start with. But, borrow as we must. Some terms are, today, simply "martial arts terms." Aren't you glad you don't have to go to Japan to see your founder?

 

[Kizaru]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enson
i'm so glad we don't use much japanese in our school!:idunno:

I'm with you on this point also.

Then why don't you stop using the terms "Koga", "ryu", and "Ninjutsu"?

 

[Kizaru]

Hi All,
I'll play. But remember, in America, we speak English so it's not fair for you to use these Japanese terms without the English equivalents (sp.l).

CHANBARA is a method of "sword" use.
KANCHOJUTSU is a method of organ piercing and body control.
NIGIRI PE techniques are techniques of grasping and distracting.

From what I saw, they seemed to be pretty basic to the "Hachi Tengu", so I'm trying to give you a chance to prove your authenticty once and for all. Maybe you could ask Mr. Dux about this directly.

(1)I like the way you purposefully misspell Koga as Kooga. Not bad to spell it like it sounds phonetically.

Thanks!

(2)Still looking into the Hachi Tengu. Does any current school (Ryu-ha) teach what the Yamabushi and Sohei taught to these Ninja? Is their teachings the same as what we learn today in our Ryu?

That's what I'm trying to find out too.:asian:

Easier to find out than I once believed.

What have you discovered? Do tell!

(3)Not sure of the hand formations you speak of in the art of espionage. There are a few. In fact, quite a few.

For example, in KANCHOJUTSU, often the hands are clasped together with the index fingers pointing up with thumbs supporting...would you like to fill in a little more for us?:asian:

(4)Dim Mak? Any modern school (in America) is familiar with the term. Dim Mak is a very misunderstood art.

Maybe you'd like to elaborate?

(6)I do not discuss the man whose name you mention...

Who? Senzo Tanaka? Why wouldn't you want to discuss him? Isn't he the one that brought your tradition to the United States?

 

[sojobow]

CHANBARA is a method of "sword" use.
KANCHOJUTSU is a method of organ piercing and body control.
NIGIRI PE techniques are techniques of grasping and distracting.

Chanbara: "Tanabe Tetsundo with some of the strongest martial artists in Japan called this new school of thought Goshindo, later nicknamed Chanbara" So, I've kind of started to look into Go Shin Do to find any reference to the Hachi Tengu. Just a web search.

Kancho Jutsu: An art of Espionage

Nigiri Pe: A Sushi dish?

Looked like a trap especially since Mr. Roley inferred that they (organization of the 8 Families into the Tengu school) did not ever exist. I believe they do/did, however, need only information on Kancho Jutsu for personal reasons. What was done in prior to 950 A.D., most likely wouldn't work today but the study of warfare is interesting.

From what I saw, they seemed to be pretty basic to the "Hachi Tengu", so I'm trying to give you a chance to prove your authenticty once and for all. Maybe you could ask Mr. Dux about this directly.

I definately would like to look at the information you have seen. Why would I have to prove my authenticity? And, to whom is it necessary to prove my authenticity to? Neverending story. Plus, another name I do not discuss outside of the Dojo anymore. Never met him personally.

So little time.

 

[Kizaru]

Kancho Jutsu: An art of Espionage

So you do practice Kancho Jutsu in your dojo...that is a relief to hear...slowly the story comes out! Maybe we were a little hasty in judging you...

Nigiri Pe: A Sushi dish?

Nigiri Pe and Nigiri Sushi are not the same thing at all..."Nigri" means "to grasp". When one makes "Nigiri Sushi" the rice is fully "grasped" in the palm of the hand. "Nigiri Pe" on the other hand, is/was a fundamental grasping technique utilized by the "Hachi Tengu". I'm sure if your dojo is decended from theirs, you're probably still using it.

need only information on Kancho Jutsu for personal reasons. What was done in prior to 950 A.D., most likely wouldn't work today but the study of warfare is interesting.

What in particular are you looking for?

 

[Enson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enson
i'm so glad we don't use much japanese in our school!:idunno:

I'm with you on this point also.

Then why don't you stop using the terms "Koga", "ryu", and "Ninjutsu"?

okay kizaru i'm so sorry i have seen the errors of my ways!
(question to everyone else...) is it because kizaru and heretic haven't been around to see all of the discussions on this, they keep beating a dead horse?

i will say it again for those that don't know how to use the search button. we really don't affiliate with any ryu from japan. be it togakure, koga, ninjukai, or anyone else saying the japan rules and i have their flag tatooed on my back. WE ARE A MODERN AMERICAN STYLE WITH NINJUTSU CONCEPTS! now for those that know me know i never caps anything. don't make me yell again! hee hee! :lol: we only use ryu because that is indeed what it is. if we can't use japanese words then we are in trouble. that would be like saying that we need to take out words like sushi out of our speech because it comes from japan. i know, i know we can call it "raw fish wrapped in rice and sea weed"! i think sushi sounds better don't you?
can we move on now?
peace

 

[heretic888]

I like the way you purposefully misspell Koga as Kooga. Not bad to spell it like it sounds phonetically.

*snicker snicker ralph*

 

[sojobow]

So you do practice Kancho Jutsu in your dojo...that is a relief to hear...slowly the story comes out! Maybe we were a little hasty in judging you...

Sure. We just don't call it Kancho Jutsu. Espionage would be easier for us.

Nigiri Pe and Nigiri Sushi are not the same thing at all...

Unsure, but I may have seen Nigiri Pe spelled as Nigiri Pie (Serious).

On the other hand, is/was a fundamental grasping technique utilized by the "Hachi Tengu". I'm sure if your dojo is decended from theirs, you're probably still using it.

Do you mean a direct decendent as if our school lineage STARTS with the Hachi Tengu, I'd say no. But, this is another subject I do not discuss outside of our school. But, I will say this much - IMOHO, I haven't seen or read anything regarding Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu or the Ninja, that has not been also addressed in my school.

What in particular are you looking for?

In particular I am looking for any literature or oral transmissions regarding what was taught to these families by the yamabushi and sohei. Basically, the term "subtefuge" is mentioned. If so, I'd like to compare notes. Psycological Warefare is becoming a specialty I'm most interested in. Learning the fighting techniques used in a Hachi Tengu school is not a preference at this point. Looking for the mental side of combative art.

 

[Kizaru]

Sure. We just don't call it Kancho Jutsu. Espionage would be easier for us.

Unsure, but I may have seen Nigiri Pe spelled as Nigiri Pie (Serious)..

So you have both Kancho jutsu and Nigiri Pe in your system...that's really interesting. I wonder if Don Roley is looking at this...he proabably hasn't posted here yet 'cause he can't think up a good arguement!:erg:

 

[heretic888]

So you have both Kancho jutsu and Nigiri Pe in your system...that's really interesting. I wonder if Don Roley is looking at this...he proabably hasn't posted here yet 'cause he can't think up a good arguement!

Uhhhh.... doubtful.

Set aside the notion that no one hear seem to know how to pronounce "Koga", most (if not all) of the concepts mentioned here can be found in Hayes' books. Just because Japanese terminology is tossed around, a Japanese art does not make.

It could also be "the book I found" talking about a Japanese system of "dim make" (snickers), and references to "my girlfriend learned these skills through her family" are in no way constitutive of anything resembling actual evidence. Also, as Don pointed out before, the English transliterations these individuals give for "Hachi Tengu" is just plain wrong.

But, hey, I'm sure he'll be popping in here soon enough...

Have a good one. :asian:

 

[sojobow]

So you have both Kancho jutsu and Nigiri Pe in your system...that's really interesting. I wonder if Don Roley is looking at this...he proabably hasn't posted here yet 'cause he can't think up a good arguement!:erg:

You also described a finger position in another thread with certain fingers pointing upward and the thumbs supporting. I used the position earlier this week as I was feeling exhaustion setting in and a "time to give up" attitude. It works for me (even though its the incorrect hand technique). But, it works, I think, because I point it at the correct Channel.

Getting closer to the Hachi's. Found a few of the other families but I'm concerned with the continuousness of the family links. Thanks for the hints.

 

[Kizaru]

You also described a finger position in another thread with certain fingers pointing upward and the thumbs supporting...But, it works, I think, because I point it at the correct Channel...

Always important to be pointing at the correct "Channel" when doing the ol' Kancho jutsu, eh?

 

[sojobow]

Always important to be pointing at the correct "Channel" when doing the ol' Kancho jutsu, eh?

Three completely different studies. Kuji, Energy, Espionage. Now, you're kidding.

 

[Kizaru]

Three completely different studies. Kuji, Energy, Espionage. Now, you're kidding.

Kuji and Energy work aren't related?? Espionage doesn't rely on channels? Sojobow, I think you are smart enough to know that ninja were always inter-relating their different skills, not only to support each skill, but to make them easier to remember...Now you're making me wonder if you actually train in these areas and if I should bother finishing my translation on the "Hachi Tengu"...

 

[heretic888]

Now you're making me wonder if you actually train in these areas and if I should bother finishing my translation on the "Hachi Tengu"...

Gee, yah think??

 

[sojobow]

Kuji and Energy work aren't related?? Espionage doesn't rely on channels? Sojobow, I think you are smart enough to know that ninja were always inter-relating their different skills, not only to support each skill, but to make them easier to remember...Now you're making me wonder if you actually train in these areas and if I should bother finishing my translation on the "Hachi Tengu"...

Sure they all BECOME related. Learning Kuji is a field in itself. Channels are learned separately, as well as Espionage as you even proposed to us the name given to this art (Jutsu/Jitsu). Once we study these concepts, inter-relating them will reveal that we have a deeper understanding. A Ninjitsuist also understands herbology and economics and mathmatics even to the point of their inter-relations. Lets look at an example of the inter-relationships of herbology, economic and mathmatics:

Fibonacci sequence

Fibonacci is perhaps best known for a simple series of numbers,

Note the economics of the implyed footwork (of a Ninja) and that the picture can be drawn mathmatically as well as the energy flow of the Channels. Separate - but inter-related.

Your input is always appreciated (Parental references excluded). Good to have someone here unaffraid of the search.
http://plus.maths.org/issue3/fibonacci/

Boy am I gonna get killed for this one. Outer Space

 

[Kizaru]

Your input is always appreciated ...Good to have someone here unaffraid of the search.
http://plus.maths.org/issue3/fibonacci/

Boy am I gonna get killed for this one. Outer Space

The fibonacci patterns are interesting, but what about your experience with Chanbara, Nigiri Pe and Kanchojutsu? I'd still like to hear a little more about that before we continue. PM me if you have any misgivings about posting publicly.