Krav Maga Kuckle Protection

ehall87

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Hi everyone,
I recently I started Krav Maga and am really enjoying it. However, I have an old boxers fracture injury on my right-hand ring finger. The knuckle is actually still noticeably smaller than the other knuckles on that hand. The injury is about 10 years old and never given me any trouble, until the other night after Krav class. It's feeling much better after 24 hours, but I don't want to push it too much.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how I can protect that hand, those knuckles better when I'm in class? Some sort of extra padded glove, or thicker wrapping?

Pretty new to the area and want to get some practical real world advice. Thanks
 

lklawson

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Pistol Grip punching, same as old style bare knuckle boxers used. Helps keep the fist safer from injury.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

MAfreak

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don't punch. use palm strikes instead. works as straights as well as as hooks.
they even should teach you to do so for self-defense.
image007.jpg
 
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ehall87

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Hey Kirk thanks for the response. Could you elaborate a bit on pistol grip punching? I'm not familiar with that and a quick google search has not shown me much on the topic.
 

MAfreak

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i think he means vertical fist. wouldn't recommend it because with that often the ring finger knuckle hits first (because of the slightly circular movement) instead of the middle finger which should be mainly hitting.
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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Fairly certain it's hitting vertically with the bottom 3 knuckles, rather then the top two. I've got the same concern as MAfreak, especially since your instructor probably doesn't know how to punch in that way (few people do punch like that now) and second the idea of using open handed strikes wherever possible.
 

jks9199

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One weakness in a lot of Krav instruction is a failure to teach some of the fundamentals before throwing people into training. Things like how to make a fist, how to punch properly and so on. Instead, there's often a quick demo of a technique, then lots of pad work. I'd also suggest a vertical fist (but that's because my style uses them extensively...) and a focus on the first or first and second knuckle, along with learning to properly form a fist. Also, palm strikes rather nicely avoid problems with the knuckles when punching, as others have noted.
 
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ehall87

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Thanks for all the advice everyone. I will definitely be asking my instructor about vertical fist punch options. And try to stick to more palm strikes to avoid the knuckles, but I would like to be able to protect my hand as well because I'm sure as I'm learning I will throw a plenty of incorrect punches.

Does anyone know or could recommend a certain type of padded glove, or knuckle protection to wear under wraps, or boxing gloves perhaps?
 

JowGaWolf

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Knuckle and hand conditioning along with proper punching technique is the only way to go. Having pads and wraps will only make you continue to punch with bad technique and will not help with the conditioning. Before you do any of that you need to stop punching harder than what your hand can handle. If your punching technique falls apart or gets worst with speed and power, then you need to punch softer until you can hold the correct punching technique regardless of how fast or how powerful you hit.

If your knuckle is damage then you need to stop hitting stuff with your knuckle and allow your knuckle to heal.
 
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Tez3

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Knuckle and hand conditioning along with proper punching technique is the only way to go. Having pads and wraps will only make you continue to punch with bad technique and will not help with the conditioning. QUOTE]

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It's not 'either or', you can wear wraps AND use proper technique. Wraps don't make you punch badly. Get taught properly and wear wraps ( learn how to put them on properly as well) if you want
 

Dirty Dog

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It's not 'either or', you can wear wraps AND use proper technique. Wraps don't make you punch badly. Get taught properly and wear wraps ( learn how to put them on properly as well) if you want

But without training specifically to condition the hands to impact without protection, you're still looking at a pretty significant risk of injury.
If a students goals are non-tournament, I encourage them to start with wraps and gloves, to work on excellent technique, and to set a goal of gradually reducing the protection and aiming for bare hand training.
 
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ehall87

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Thanks for all the fast responses I will be looking into gloves and wraps for better protection, but I'll make sure to start conditioning my hands and focus on proper technique...

Any advice as to where I can find this information online to practice outside of class?
 

JowGaWolf

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It's not 'either or', you can wear wraps AND use proper technique. Wraps don't make you punch badly. Get taught properly and wear wraps ( learn how to put them on properly as well) if you want
If you want to be able to punch without wraps and gloves, then conditioning is a must and proper technique is a must. I've punched the heavy bag and pads for more than 20 years and I don't have the advantage of wraps helping me hold my bones in correct alignment. The only wrap that I have are the tendons, ligaments, muscles, and bone to keep things tight. They only way those components are able to hold is because I conditioned them.

I've seen students and fighters who are always using gloves and wraps easily injure themselves when they punch a heavy bag bare knuckle. I often see this when I get students who are used to hitting with gloves on, and then try to hit a bag without gloves on. They get red knuckles and sometimes they punch the skin off the knuckle. When you have gloves on, swiping punches go unnoticed. When you don't have gloves on then you'll know right away when your punch doesn't go straight in and straight back. I've seen people who punch heavy bags really hard while where gloves and wraps. The punches looks like perfect punches with perfect technique, but when they take the gloves off, they almost break their wrist because they can no longer rely on the wrap to support their hand or wrist.

Here's a boxer talking about conditioning the hands( Skip to the 2:12 mark). Listen for when he says "the muscles that your hands are not used to" If you look at how a martial artist conditions their hands vs how a boxer conditions their hands, you will see that the martial artist conditioning is more involved and it's not just about making the knuckles harder.
 

JowGaWolf

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Thanks for all the fast responses I will be looking into gloves and wraps for better protection, but I'll make sure to start conditioning my hands and focus on proper technique...

Any advice as to where I can find this information online to practice outside of class?
By the way. Hand conditioning is a slow process. It's something you slowly do to improve the bone density and the ligament and tendon strength. Do go hard thinking that the more damage you do the better your are getting conditioning. Stop the conditioning the moment you start to feel your knuckle begin to bruise. This way you'll be able to heal faster from that injury then a full on bruise to the bone. Severe bruises take longer to heal than small bruises. Longer healing time means less training and less conditioning.
Pay close attention to how your fist impacts the target. Take note of which knuckles are hitting first, the structure of your wrist, and how much power is too much.

Some people hit just to hit and they never really pay attention to the body's feedback after striking. Don't worry about power at first. Good power comes from good technique.
 

Tez3

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Mmm I don't think I need a lecture thank you on wrapping hands, punching etc. especially for professional boxing and MMA. I merely pointed out that one can use correct technique whilst wearing wraps. Wearing wraps doesn't mean it automatically becomes bad technique. I am more than aware when one should wrap and when one shouldn't, I've been coaching pro fighters a long time now so please don't patronise me. :cool:
 
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ehall87

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Thanks again. JowGaWolf useful information, but with my old injury (boxers fracture on my ring finger) will I be able to condition to be able to go bare knuckle? Have you seen students with similar hand injuries be able to recondition their hand to handle the stress. The last thing I want to do is damage my hand more, due to not protecting this old injury. (Does anyone have experience with this?)

If I can't that's fine I'm getting into Krav for staying in shape, and to have some training in self-defense for an unexpected real world scenario (hopefully that never happens) not to enter competitions or not to hit the heavy bag bare knuckle necessarily.

Either way, it's good to know that if I am using extra padding and gloves constantly, that I shouldn't ever start wailing away on the heavy bag without them on. Thanks
 

JowGaWolf

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Mmm I don't think I need a lecture thank you on wrapping hands, punching etc. especially for professional boxing and MMA. I merely pointed out that one can use correct technique whilst wearing wraps. Wearing wraps doesn't mean it automatically becomes bad technique. I am more than aware when one should wrap and when one shouldn't, I've been coaching pro fighters a long time now so please don't patronise me. :cool:
just giving a different perspective on someone who does fist and wrist conditioning drills by punching into the soil while doing push ups in the grass among other things that one would probably not find in a boxing or mma gym.
 

drop bear

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Thanks again. JowGaWolf useful information, but with my old injury (boxers fracture on my ring finger) will I be able to condition to be able to go bare knuckle? Have you seen students with similar hand injuries be able to recondition their hand to handle the stress. The last thing I want to do is damage my hand more, due to not protecting this old injury. (Does anyone have experience with this?)

If I can't that's fine I'm getting into Krav for staying in shape, and to have some training in self-defense for an unexpected real world scenario (hopefully that never happens) not to enter competitions or not to hit the heavy bag bare knuckle necessarily.

Either way, it's good to know that if I am using extra padding and gloves constantly, that I shouldn't ever start wailing away on the heavy bag without them on. Thanks

Even pads. And especially thai pads can be an issue if the pad holder is giving a bit of reverberation on the things.

Otherwise all the things that help recovery after class like ice/heat. Acupuncture or those electrical things. Are worth while looking in to.
 

JowGaWolf

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but with my old injury (boxers fracture on my ring finger) will I be able to condition to be able to go bare knuckle?
Yes. Because it's a gradual and gentle conditioning where you aren't punishing your knuckle. You just want a tiny bit of discomfort like the feeling you get from hitting something and you know that if you hit harder it's going to hurt or bruise. Any bruising that occurs should happen after 10 strikes or more then you stop. If you bruise your knuckles within 5 or 6 strikes with the same hand then you are hitting too hard. Think of it like knocking on a wooden door of a house there's only so many knocks you can do before your knuckle gets tender.

As for your old injury you can avoid hitting that knuckle too often by focusing the force of your punch on the first e knuckles or just on the second knuckle. For me my first 2 knuckles get more conditioning than the ring finger. The first 2 knuckles are the common knuckles that practitioners hit with. Because of the system I train in. The other knuckles I hit with are the first 3 knuckles that you use to knock on a wooden door. My fingers still look normal and my joints aren't deformed, nor do I have joint pain.

I do these exercises as well. They are simple to do but you'll definitely feel it when you do it correctly.
Tiger Claw Grabbing
Flying wing
Grabbing Air Tiger Claw
Windless
The tension grabs are really good for strengthening the tendons, ligaments, and muscles.

Have you seen students with similar hand injuries be able to recondition their hand to handle the stress. The last thing I want to do is damage my hand more, due to not protecting this old injury.
This depends on how bad your injury is. I have seen students with hand injuries and knuckle injuries have successful recondition, but it was mainly because they learned how to target the correct knuckles which takes the 3rd knuckle (ringer finger) out of the equation as it's no longer used for striking, which in turn reduces risk of injuring it again. That 3rd knuckle will still hit but it won't hit with any significant impact in comparison to what the other 2 knuckles are getting. You should be ok as long as your injury doesn't require surgery. If you condition your hand and focus your power on those 1st two knuckles then that old injury shouldn't be getting a lot of action.
It doesn't take super punches to hurt someone once you get the technique, conditioning, and power connection with your punches

Here's a video for you.

I'm the guy taking the punishment. I'll never do this again because it causes more damage than what it looks like and feels at first. If I wanted to put someone down, then I would use the technique shown in that video but I would do it hard as if I was trying to punch his soul.
 

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