Keumgang Poomsae

[paitingman]

I am not sure to what motions you are referring to in Taeguek 4.

The augmented spearhands in the beginning? As described, this is done With the spear hand as supplement.

The double blocks at the end? These moves are done in Sequence, not at the same time.

What are you referring to?

Perhaps the knifehand high block + chop movement?
Idk what name yal use. Korean name is too long lol
What should that move be called?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[dvcochran]

@skribs, I am going to tolerate your childish ramblings a little longer because they are good for a laugh. I hope you realize NOBODY sees your input as intellectual value and assume you spew your kneejerk reactionary blather as a form of humor. It is usually very funny.

I have said this before; You really, really need to get out or you dojang and experience MA from other perspectives. Like Way out. Like out or your state or even your country. It seems to be a very different kind of stupid you have going on there.

My apologies to the moderators. I am not elegant, or patient enough to communicate with certain people via the internet in a manner that is always 'nice'. I actually have a life taking place.

 

[dvcochran]

Perhaps the knifehand high block + chop movement?
Idk what name yal use. Korean name is too long lol
What should that move be called?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I can see that.
I think your description of the move is correct.

 

[pdg]

The augmented spearhands in the beginning? As described, this is done With the spear hand as supplement.

So that's an augmented move for you?

So you have the attacking hand doing a fingertip thrust (spearhand) - do you have a purpose for the other hand that finishes under the elbow (and do you have that palm down)?

The double blocks at the end? These moves are done in Sequence, not at the same time.

I didn't see anything that I'd classify as a double block near or at the end in the grainy video I just watched - should I look for another?

 

[skribs]

I am not sure to what motions you are referring to in Taeguek 4.

The augmented spearhands in the beginning? As described, this is done With the spear hand as supplement.

The double blocks at the end? These moves are done in Sequence, not at the same time.

What are you referring to?

Double knife-hand block.
Supported spearhand.
Simultaneous high block and chop. (Although this one I do see the practical application of, it's very similar to our first set of punch defense drills).

That's just in the first 5 moves.

@skribs, I am going to tolerate your childish ramblings a little longer because they are good for a laugh. I hope you realize NOBODY sees your input as intellectual value and assume you spew your kneejerk reactionary blather as a form of humor. It is usually very funny.

I have said this before; You really, really need to get out or you dojang and experience MA from other perspectives. Like Way out. Like out or your state or even your country. It seems to be a very different kind of stupid you have going on there.

My apologies to the moderators. I am not elegant, or patient enough to communicate with certain people via the internet in a manner that is always 'nice'. I actually have a life taking place.

Once again, you resort to belittling me in order to attack my argument. This pretty much just tells me I'm right. You don't have an answer for what I say, so you just insult me.

If you want to actually convince me that I'm wrong, do it by actually debating the points I present, instead of by huffing and puffing.

You're also showing your true colors. You never missed me for me. You missed me for your own sick entertainment.

 

[skribs]

Yes, that is a good point that there are complementary or supplemented moves like the augmented blocks you mention in lower forms. Check me, but I think Keumgang is one of the first forms where each hand/arm is doing its own thing, largely independent of each other.
Thinking about it, there are several exceptions in Pinan form set. I cannot think of any in the Palgwae or Taeguek sets but entirely possible.

That depends on how you define "largely independent of each other". The block-and-chop in Taegeuk #4 certainly qualifies. If it doesn't, then nothing in Keumgang does, because they're done at the same time.

I think the scissor blocks in Taegeuk #7, as well as the front section of Taegeuk #8 (the low block/outside block and then the slow uppercut). Arguably the spearhand in Koryo as well.

So that's an augmented move for you?

So you have the attacking hand doing a fingertip thrust (spearhand) - do you have a purpose for the other hand that finishes under the elbow (and do you have that palm down)?



I didn't see anything that I'd classify as a double block near or at the end in the grainy video I just watched - should I look for another?

I have no clue what he means, either. I've never thought of the spearhand as a supplement when doing that form (or any other form with the spear-hand). In some of our other forms, we do a palm block and then an augmented spearhand, but the spearhand is still the primary technique when executed.

There are blocks and 1-2 punches at the end of Taegeuk #4. Maybe he's thinking of #5?

 

[dvcochran]

You missed me for your own sick entertainment.

Sounds about right.


No matter how anyone replies to your queries you counter with endless blather instead to 'listening' to what people say. This is exactly why I seldom answer your posts at length. You make it pointless.

 

[dvcochran]

So that's an augmented move for you?

So you have the attacking hand doing a fingertip thrust (spearhand) - do you have a purpose for the other hand that finishes under the elbow (and do you have that palm down)?



I didn't see anything that I'd classify as a double block near or at the end in the grainy video I just watched - should I look for another?

The augmentation is for protecting the elbow. A spear hand is done palm up (mostly), with the elbow locked and facing down so it is potentially exposed to an upward strike (like a front kick). The free hand is used to protect the locked elbow. The back of your hand is nearest the elbow.
A more advanced way to use the free hand position is After the spearing hand has made contact in the event the arm is grabbed.

Let me get a count on the moves to see what number they are and I will get back to you to see if we are on the same page.

 

[skribs]

Sounds about right.


No matter how anyone replies to your queries you counter with endless blather instead to 'listening' to what people say. This is exactly why I seldom answer your posts at length. You make it pointless.

This entire thread has been proof that you don't listen.

The difference between you and me is that when I disagree with someone, I look at their points and see what is it about they said that doesn't make sense based on my research and experience. When someone disagrees with you, and you have no answer, you find a way to make their argument less potent by insulting them or explaining why you're better than them and thus they should listen to you.

You complain about my "endless blather". What I provide is explanation of why I think I'm right, and ask questions why the other person thinks they're right. When I ask these questions of you, you become defensive and resort to attacking my experience or my character, instead of addressing the points I bring up. In that sense, it is pointless, because you're not making for a very good debate.

The augmentation is for protecting the elbow. A spear hand is done palm up (mostly), with the elbow locked and facing down so it is potentially exposed to an upward strike (like a front kick). The free hand is used to protect the locked elbow. The back of your hand is nearest the elbow.
A more advanced way to use the free hand position is After the spearing hand has made contact in the event the arm is grabbed.

Let me get a count on the moves to see what number they are and I will get back to you to see if we are on the same page.

Maybe you phrased it wrong earlier, because you said the spearhand was the support (which would imply the palm is the primary focus of the technique).

I'm pretty sure that spearhand (Taegeuk #4, the source of that discussion) is done with a vertical hand and not with the palm up. The only palm-up spearhand I know in the KKW forms is in Koryo, and the other hand isn't under the elbow at that point.

Out of curiosity - how do you count the moves? Because depending on how you count you may end up on a very different page. (i.e. if you count the down block and punch in Taeguek #1 as 5a-5b or 5-6 you're going to have anywhere from 16 to 20 moves in that form).

 

[dvcochran]

There is more to the reason(s) people get short with you. I hope you figure this out.

I'm pretty sure that spearhand (Taegeuk #4, the source of that discussion) is done with a vertical hand and not with the palm up. The only palm-up spearhand I know in the KKW forms is in Koryo, and the other hand isn't under the elbow at that point.

What is your target when performing a spear hand?

Out of curiosity - how do you count the moves? Because depending on how you count you may end up on a very different page. (i.e. if you count the down block and punch in Taeguek #1 as 5a-5b or 5-6 you're going to have anywhere from 16 to 20 moves in that form).

As a general rule, we count any double moves on one count, (the second move in Pinan 2 or connecting moves in Taeguek 1 for example). Often when a person is first learning a form I will do each move on a single count at first.

 

[pdg]

The augmentation is for protecting the elbow. A spear hand is done palm up (mostly), with the elbow locked and facing down so it is potentially exposed to an upward strike (like a front kick). The free hand is used to protect the locked elbow. The back of your hand is nearest the elbow.
A more advanced way to use the free hand position is After the spearing hand has made contact in the event the arm is grabbed.

Let me get a count on the moves to see what number they are and I will get back to you to see if we are on the same page.

There's another difference.

For the type shown in the video of taegeuk4 - which we would refer to as a fingertip thrust (we don't have spearhand as a regular use term) - the attacking hand is vertical.

The orientation of the hand depends on the target (more below).

The secondary hand, the one that finishes under the elbow, palm down, lands there having travelled in an arc motion - kind of performing a high downward palm block (say to an incoming punch) - then the attack goes over the top. These aren't generally visually discernible as separate moves.

The 'advanced' bit, that could still follow - so sweepy block to a punch combined with thrust over it, grabbing the hand you've blocked to pull into another move...

At least, that's how we do it.

What is your target when performing a spear hand?

The type shown in T4 - target would be mid section, so solar plexus area or thereabouts. Always vertical, palm to the side.

A high section (eyes, septum area, throat) would generally be a "flat fingertip" which is horizontal hand, palm down.

Low section (stomach, groin) would be "upset", so horizontal again, palm up.

I'm pretty sure that spearhand (Taegeuk #4, the source of that discussion) is done with a vertical hand and not with the palm up.

That's how I take it too.

 

[pdg]

Out of curiosity - how do you count the moves? Because depending on how you count you may end up on a very different page. (i.e. if you count the down block and punch in Taeguek #1 as 5a-5b or 5-6 you're going to have anywhere from 16 to 20 moves in that form).

As a general rule, we count any double moves on one count, (the second move in Pinan 2 or connecting moves in Taeguek 1 for example). Often when a person is first learning a form I will do each move on a single count at first.

This depends on how you mean to count the moves.

If it's looking at a pattern and counting moves, then each move is a separate entity - the sole exception being stuff like a true double block or similar.

Something like a double punch with fast motion, or two blocks with connecting motion - that's two techniques so are separately counted.


Performing to count, that's different.

The majority are one count, one move.

But, anything in fast motion is generally linked to one count (double punch), same with connecting motion (low block followed by high block using the same arm with no step).

Things that aren't practical to stop on count (in one pattern, high right turning kick, high left turning kick, land into forearm guarding block) are done as a set on one count - so there are multiple sets of 2,3 and 4 moves done to one count.


The amount of moves are constant, as per written description. The number of moves is also part of it's meaning...

But, it means that to count, a pattern that has say 30 moves you may only count to 25, due to the linkages.

 

[dvcochran]

There's another difference.

For the type shown in the video of taegeuk4 - which we would refer to as a fingertip thrust (we don't have spearhand as a regular use term) - the attacking hand is vertical.

The orientation of the hand depends on the target (more below).

The secondary hand, the one that finishes under the elbow, palm down, lands there having travelled in an arc motion - kind of performing a high downward palm block (say to an incoming punch) - then the attack goes over the top. These aren't generally visually discernible as separate moves.

The 'advanced' bit, that could still follow - so sweepy block to a punch combined with thrust over it, grabbing the hand you've blocked to pull into another move...

At least, that's how we do it.



The type shown in T4 - target would be mid section, so solar plexus area or thereabouts. Always vertical, palm to the side.

A high section (eyes, septum area, throat) would generally be a "flat fingertip" which is horizontal hand, palm down.

Low section (stomach, groin) would be "upset", so horizontal again, palm up.



That's how I take it too.

I like the arcing motion idea. I don't think I have heard it put in such explicit terms relative to a 'standard' spear hand. There are two TSD forms that do exactly what you describe but more as two separate moves done on the same step. I know you said it is not discernable but is this hand slightly leading the spearing hand? I envision that it would have to so as not to get in the way. Maybe I am seeing it wrong.

I suppose saying mostly palms up is easily misunderstood. We practice a middle strike (solar plexus) or low strike (iliohypogastric nerve bundle) more palm up, at about a 45° angle for two reasons. The first is simply the natural 'lay' or rotation of the forearm/wrist/hand in an outreaching motion. The second is if the spear hand is followed with a gripping motion so that an upward & outward pull is easier.

I have heard it said that a vertical palm is weaker but know of little to prove this. I do see logic in the open part of the hand being turned upward, the same way grip strength is stronger when pushing in toward the palm and/or against the natural folding motion of the fingers.

An upper spear hand is not something we actively practice but I have seen it performed at other schools. It naturally has a reach advantage but I do not feel the fingers (mine anyway) are ideal against anything hard, like the eye socket or collar bone, in the event of a near miss. Whereas, a fist is still going to have a strong effect to these areas even in a near miss.
That said, a spear hand to the eye or windpipe would be one hell of an effective strike.

 

[pdg]

I know you said it is not discernable but is this hand slightly leading the spearing hand? I envision that it would have to so as not to get in the way. Maybe I am seeing it wrong

No, you're seeing it right - it does ever so slightly lead. Just not enough to be anything like two moves.

I have heard it said that a vertical palm is weaker but know of little to prove this

I can't see how it's weaker, it's a natural orientation for me at mid section.

We don't really do angled - it's either flat or vertical.

It naturally has a reach advantage but I do not feel the fingers (mine anyway) are ideal against anything hard, like the eye socket or collar bone, in the event of a near miss

Part of it is how you hold your fingers.

Dead straight and it'll hurt you.

Slightly bent means the risk of bending the joints the wrong way is massively reduced.

Not many at the club are prepared to do it, but I like breaking with a fingertip thrust - because it looks cool I'm 'only' up to the 3/4" rebreakable board with it...

It definitely takes practice though, and it's up to the individual whether that's justifiable or they'd rather use the time on more 'useful' stuff - personally, given I really don't think I'm likely to get called on to defend myself, I like working on stuff I find entertaining.

 

[pdg]

There are two TSD forms that do exactly what you describe but more as two separate moves done on the same step

Do you know what these are called?

Maybe I can find a video or something to see if it's similar...

 

[pdg]

I know you said it is not discernable but is this hand slightly leading the spearing hand? I envision that it would have to so as not to get in the way. Maybe I am seeing it wrong.

Some more...

It's subtle, if the performer is any good you have to be really looking for it.

Ok, in this one - move 6 at about 0:13

 

[skribs]

There is more to the reason(s) people get short with you. I hope you figure this out.

A lot of people get along with me. You seem to think that number is lower than it is.

What is your target when performing a spear hand?

In T4, at the solar plexus. In Koryo, the groin. My Master had an interesting comment about that one the other day, his advice was "grab the ball and rip it out."

As a general rule, we count any double moves on one count, (the second move in Pinan 2 or connecting moves in Taeguek 1 for example). Often when a person is first learning a form I will do each move on a single count at first.

The reason I asked (and I'm glad I did) is because that's how we might generally count it, but that doesn't appear the way @pdg counts. I'm glad I asked to make sure you're really on the same page.

Kind of like how the Bible uses chapter and verse instead of page #, because different page sizes and fonts could mean wildly different page numbers for the same content

The secondary hand, the one that finishes under the elbow, palm down, lands there having travelled in an arc motion - kind of performing a high downward palm block (say to an incoming punch) - then the attack goes over the top. These aren't generally visually discernible as separate moves.

In my school's Palgwe forms (which differ from the ones I find online) spearhand strikes are usually following a palm block, and not done simultaneously. This is the application that made the most sense to me when I started learning T4.

 

[pdg]

The reason I asked (and I'm glad I did) is because that's how we might generally count it, but that doesn't appear the way @pdg counts. I'm glad I asked to make sure you're really on the same page.

Kind of like how the Bible uses chapter and verse instead of page #, because different page sizes and fonts could mean wildly different page numbers for the same content

Well, it appears that 'I' actually count the same as you, as well as different to you.

Say there's "front snap kick, double punch".

In description, that would be 3 moves, numbered individually and described separately, i.e. (numbers for illustration only):

7. Perform a right front snap kick landing in right walking stance
8. Perform an obverse middle section punch upon landing in right walking stance
9. Perform a reverse middle section punch in right walking stance (these moves are performed with fast motion)


When doing it to instructor's count, you'd do all three on one count.


If required, I'll go through T4 to illustrate how it'd differ...

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran @pdg

My recommendation for you two at this point is to find a picture representation of the form with the techniques counted, so you can just say "Step 14 of the image."

Something like this

 

[pdg]

@dvcochran @pdg

My recommendation for you two at this point is to find a picture representation of the form with the techniques counted, so you can just say "Step 14 of the image."

Something like this

I detest those personally. But I know others like them - I just wouldn't ever choose to use them.

I also dislike the practice of adding suffixes to numbered moves.


Do you have separate terms and descriptions for different styles of motion and the transitions between moves?

For example, we have things like slow (self explanatory hopefully) but also things like fast, connecting and continuous motion to describe the transitions.