Duality in American Kenpo

[Ceicei]

Kenpo Seniors,

This is a question I had been thinking about in my mind for a long time regarding American Kenpo, but didn't have the words to frame what I was thinking and how to ask this. The concepts in my mind became clear exactly how to ask regarding American Kenpo when I recently came across similar concepts within Jujitsu (I am still a beginning Jujitsu student). Once I understood how I wanted to ask, I finally did ask my Kenpo instructor.

I also wish to get more feedback on this, so I would like to extend the same questions to the Kenpo Seniors of MartialTalk.

First, the background of the concept as I understand it before I extend this into questions at the end for you regarding American Kenpo. I am going to put into a quotation block the concepts I learned from Danzan Ryu Jujitsu that made this a little clearer for me and will provide the reasoning why I am asking regarding American Kenpo.

This is the question I asked my Danzan Ryu Instructor:

I've been reading the recent Kiai Echo magazine [a magazine devoted to Danzan Ryu and this particular issue focused upon this subject] and am left with a question concerning the duality of Kappo and Sappo (or healing and killing). Why are we taught some of the killing first, but do not learn the healing in our early training until later? If these concepts are the two sides of the same coin, why not teach them simultaneously?

I got several answers that satisfied me with how different Danzan Ryu instructors determine the timing and setting of their own curricula. I also was told there are quite a few instructors who do not have much experience with the Kappo side anyway, so they do not teach that--cannot teach what is not well known. This led me to ask further about the whys, so I learned much more from both my instructor and my instructor's instructor regarding their views and experience.

According to them, all Danzan Ryu black belts (not necessarily instructors) are encouraged to KNOW both, but not all of the DZR instructors TEACH both concepts.

Some of them prefer to teach the Sappo only because that is what the majority of the students want--the ability to learn how to fight/defend. Because of how society view martial arts, these instructors familiar with both concepts will teach Sappo and just wait with the Kappo until their students are of sufficient rank and maturity. Few instructors will teach both concepts from the very beginning. My instructor and his instructor are integrating more Kappo along with their Sappo concepts during training.

Along with the concept of Kappo and Sappo, I also learned that there is duality in other arts: The Hawaiian Lua (art of bone breaking) is paired with the Hawaiian Lomi Lomi (art of massage), as well as Seifukuijitsu (healing art of manipulation) being paired with Jujitsu (fighting art of manipulation).

Does American Kenpo have such a duality? If so, is the "other side of training" reserved for black belt levels only, which would explain why I do not see such discussion of this topic within the colored belt levels? Mr. Ed Parker seemed to hint of this duality with some of his writings in the Infinite Insights books.

Do you believe duality exists with American Kenpo? If so, when and how would this duality be learned and taught? If it exists, but is not traditionally taught, how would a Kenpo instructor become proficient with the "yin-yang" of American Kenpo? If not traditionally taught, does this mean such an instructor would have to go "outside of Kenpo" to learn?

The reason why I feel this is really important for me to know is because I would like to become a very good American Kenpo instructor some day. Unfortunately, my Jujitsu instructor doesn't know a lot about Kenpo, so he cannot give me much guidance where Kenpo itself is concerned.

- Ceicei

 

[Blindside]

Obviously I'm not a senior, but you might consider directly contacting Ted Sumner over on the San Jose Kenpo discussion board or Sigung LaBounty.

Lamont

 

[Flying Crane]

Ted Sumner is my instructor, and he does teach a healing method. I am sure he would be willing to discuss this with you if you send him an email or go onto his discussion forum. Go to his website at www.sanjosekenpo.com and you can get in touch with him.

Ted studied Danzan Ryu under Sig Kufferath, and might have brought the healing method from those studies, I don't remember exactly the origins of what he teaches.

He has never expressed to me the idea that this is reserved for senior students. He teaches the method as schedule permits, and I believe all students are welcome to learn it, regardless of level. I have been with him for close to a year now, and have not learned it, but I believe it has just been a scheduling issue because he has been talking about doing it.

 

[Ceicei]

Obviously I'm not a senior, but you might consider directly contacting Ted Sumner over on the San Jose Kenpo discussion board or Sigung LaBounty.

Lamont

Thank you. I sent Mr. LaBounty an email. I believe he has an account here on MartialTalk, so I hope he will respond.

Ted Sumner is my instructor, and he does teach a healing method. I am sure he would be willing to discuss this with you if you send him an email or go onto his discussion forum. Go to his website at www.sanjosekenpo.com and you can get in touch with him.

Ted studied Danzan Ryu under Sig Kufferath, and might have brought the healing method from those studies, I don't remember exactly the origins of what he teaches.

He has never expressed to me the idea that this is reserved for senior students. He teaches the method as schedule permits, and I believe all students are welcome to learn it, regardless of level. I have been with him for close to a year now, and have not learned it, but I believe it has just been a scheduling issue because he has been talking about doing it.

I shall also send an email to Mr. Sumner. I find it interesting you mention Mr. Sumner already knows some Danzan Ryu. That means he will be able, if willing, to provide some insights on this subject.

Thank you.

- Ceicei

 

[Blindside]

I knew I had seen an article by Mr. Sumner on the web:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/secrets_of_the_kenpo_healing_art.htm

 

[Flying Crane]

I shall also send an email to Mr. Sumner. I find it interesting you mention Mr. Sumner already knows some Danzan Ryu. That means he will be able, if willing, to provide some insights on this subject.

Thank you.

- Ceicei

Yes, I believe he studied with Mr. Kufferaith for a number of years, altho I don't think he was ever formally ranked in Danzan Ryu. His joint locking is tops, the last time he threw me into a shoulder lock I thought I was going to lose my whole arm. But at any rate, he feels it is important to have a healing aspect of the art and this is how he satisfies that need.

 

[Ceicei]

I knew I had seen an article by Mr. Sumner on the web:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/secrets_of_the_kenpo_healing_art.htm

%think%

Thank you for that link. It is gratifying to see another Kenpoist had thought about these same questions. The "self-guided instructional course" is kind of puzzling to me. The healing art is, to my understanding, something that cannot be entirely learned alone without a very competent teacher, and according to my Jujitsu instructor, if done improperly could be harmful. I am glad he complements the course with seminars.

It seems according to this article Mr. Sumner wrote, there is nothing in the Kenpo martial art that includes any aspect of the healing side.

- Ceicei

 

[Flying Crane]

%think%
It seems according to this article Mr. Sumner wrote, there is nothing in the Kenpo martial art that includes any aspect of the healing side.

- Ceicei

I think he believes that historically it was there, but has been largely set aside. It has been an issue taken up by Tracys to restore this kind of thing in some way. People like Ted have taken the initiative to learn something of these arts and make them part of our curriculum.

As to the self-guided course, I don't know anything about that. It's always been my understanding that he teaches the course directly, and it's very hands-on.

Recently, Tom Darcy from Australia came and spent a couple weeks with Ted in order to learn this method and incorporate it into his kenpo down under. Tom is from the McSweeny lineage, having learned kenpo in Ireland before life circumstances landed him in Australia.

 

[Blindside]

I met Dr. Crimi at one of Sigung LaBounty's seminars, you'll notice who is pictured being revived on the cover of the Katsu-Ho Kappo video. As a Danzan-Ryu instructor this man may be a good source of information for you.

http://www.ryuzado.com/merchandise.html

Lamont

 

[kidswarrior]

Hi Ceicei,

I know Goju-Shorei is not kenpo, but there may be enough similarities to benefit from Master Dave McNeill's teachings at the upper levels of his weapons course: http://www.gojushorei.com/weapons.htm

He's always been very open and responsive whenever I've emailed him, although we've never met.

 

[Ceicei]

Hi Ceicei,

I know Goju-Shorei is not kenpo, but there may be enough similarities to benefit from Master Dave McNeill's teachings at the upper levels of his weapons course: http://www.gojushorei.com/weapons.htm

He's always been very open and responsive whenever I've emailed him, although we've never met.

Thank you for the tip. I'll check what is there....

I shall also send an email to Mr. Sumner.

I did get a nice "welcome" response from Mr. Sumner to my "first contact" email before I sent my questions to him in a second email. I haven't received an answer to my questions yet; I think it'll be within a week though. He is busy enough as is....

- Ceicei

 

[Flying Crane]

I did get a nice "welcome" response from Mr. Sumner to my "first contact" email before I sent my questions to him in a second email. I haven't received an answer to my questions yet; I think it'll be within a week though. He is busy enough as is....

- Ceicei

He mentioned to me on Tuesday night that he got an email from you. I think you posted the link to this thread? He said he was having difficulty getting to the thread, the system kind of bounced him or something.

You might want to just ask the questions directly in your email, rather than asking him to come and read the thread. It think the direct communication will be easier.

 

[Ceicei]

He mentioned to me on Tuesday night that he got an email from you. I think you posted the link to this thread? He said he was having difficulty getting to the thread, the system kind of bounced him or something.

You might want to just ask the questions directly in your email, rather than asking him to come and read the thread. It think the direct communication will be easier.

I did send him an email directly (a second one with my questions) later that night, but hadn't heard back since that time. I wasn't sure if he just didn't have time to answer or if he never got it. Should I send the email with my questions again?

- Ceicei

 

[Flying Crane]

I did send him an email directly (a second one with my questions) later that night, but hadn't heard back since that time. I wasn't sure if he just didn't have time to answer or if he never got it. Should I send the email with my questions again?

- Ceicei

I just saw him last night and he never mentioned it. Maybe he didn't get it, you could resend and see what he says.

A couple students are getting ready to test so his head might be elsewhere right now, maybe he's just distracted. But he's easy to talk to, I wouldn't be surprised if he is willing to answer your questions.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Kenpo Seniors,
Does American Kenpo have such a duality? If so, is the "other side of training" reserved for black belt levels only, which would explain why I do not see such discussion of this topic within the colored belt levels? Mr. Ed Parker seemed to hint of this duality with some of his writings in the Infinite Insights books.

The answer is yes (however) not all Kenpo Instructors completed enough of their training to be introduced to this level of training or understanding. Many individuals sought out "Kenpo" instruction from Ed Parker, however, many were not committed to learning the complete system, only the technique sequences (which they believed to be THE system), Ed Parker had much, much more to share and was well versed on most of the various martial arts in general. If you didn't ask..... you most likely wouldn't get. So depending on your advancement in the Art and how much you dug into the material is what most received. The lower levels of instruction obviously deal with the foundational development while the upper levels deal with more philosophical issues.

The reason why I feel this is really important for me to know is because I would like to become a very good American Kenpo instructor some day.

Keep at it! "When the student is ready..... the teacher will appear".

Unfortunately, my Jujitsu instructor doesn't know a lot about Kenpo, so he cannot give me much guidance where Kenpo itself is concerned.

Not unfortunately.............. He is a JuJitsu instructor.... NOT a KENPO instructor....... LOL why should he be able to give guidence out of his realm of expertise.


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