Respecting Black Belts in other arts in your AK school

[shine]

I have always wondered what AK folks do when somebody with a black belt rating in a different striking art walks in to an American Kenpo school and wants to sign up. Does the student wear a white, black or something in between?

Does your answer vary with the art the person studied and how compatible it is with American Kenpo?

In the school where I earned my bb, when shotokan and other traditional types came in they were allowed to wear the black belt and could jump into sparring class right away. However in technique time they had to work out with the beginners and earn their American Kenpo rank.

On the other hand, I've worn the white belt at several alternative schools over the years, and it often makes sense.

What policy do you recommend for American Kenpoists?

 

[Rob_Broad]

I used to let people who had earned their Black Belt in another style wear their Balck Belt in classes. They still did whatever the beginners did. They would have to earn their way up through the ranks in the kenpo system but I would permit them to wear their Balck Belt. I would not allow them to wear an embroidered Balck Belt that had another school name on it, I found it disrectful fro them to be wearing an advertisement for another school. The same thing went for uniforms, you could wear a plain black uniform, no one wore white. It their was a crest for another school it had to be removed, silk screened logos were not allowed either.

 

[GouRonin]

Usually whenever I have started with another instructor/school I went back to white belt and wore it until I got to whatever rank I was at.

Which explains why I have crappy rank. Ah ha ha ha!!!

But I never wore rank that I never worked for and I had no problem wearing a white belt again. In fact, sometimes I think Jaybacca ranked me just to stop me from wearing my white belt.

Luckily the school I have just started going to is owned by a friend of Jaybacca's and they let me wear the rank that Jaybacca gave me.

That's right. I have found a school that will let me work out there! YAY! I'm also gonna be polite and respectful and nice and everything! Really, I just don't think my fragile mental state can handle having to move to yet another school.

 

[GouRonin]

I just realized I never answered the question.

As for other BB's walking on the floor I have no problem with whatever they wear. The belt shows nothing. You can tell by the way they move where they are at.

 

[Zujitsuka]

I agree with you GouRonin. Besides, it is better to be a white belt that moves like a black belt, rather than be a black belt that moves like a white belt.

 

[Sandor]

Originally posted by shine
I have always wondered what AK folks do when somebody with a black belt rating in a different striking art walks in to an American Kenpo school and wants to sign up. Does the student wear a white, black or something in between?

Does your answer vary with the art the person studied and how compatible it is with American Kenpo?

In the school where I earned my bb, when shotokan and other traditional types came in they were allowed to wear the black belt and could jump into sparring class right away. However in technique time they had to work out with the beginners and earn their American Kenpo rank.

On the other hand, I've worn the white belt at several alternative schools over the years, and it often makes sense.

What policy do you recommend for American Kenpoists?

hehe.. I have a few of those running around in my school. Let me put it the way I put it to them (and well those addicted to stripes);

The belt wrapped around your waste is yours. You earned it and it is you who will have to live up to it, not me. If you want to constantly have old baggage with you wherever you go then act accordingly. If you realize that it is merely a peice of cloth that holds up your pants then act accordingly as well

None of them ever show up for class wearing their dans (well ok, one used too but eventually came to his own conclusions when he earned a brown in house) and usually opt to start over. If they want to wear them its fine with me. I don't even usually wear a belt (nevermind the stripes) so I could really care less.

Kids (ie jr blacks) on the other hand start over. I won't have others schools jr black belt trajedies walk into my jr black class as they usually aren't ready for the intensity that our jr blacks are.

just my two centavos.

Peace,
Sandor

 

[shine]

Originally posted by GouRonin


That's right. I have found a school that will let me work out there! YAY! I'm also gonna be polite and respectful and nice and everything!

Dare I ask about these other schools you've trained at?!?

Really, I just don't think my fragile mental state can handle having to move to yet another school.

Never mind that now...

...what are you wearing?

=)

:wink:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by shine

Never mind that now...
...what are you wearing?

I'm wearing a nice little cotton number that makes me look a lot like Ralph Machio.

 

[Klondike93]

I have a black belt in another art, and I'm allowed to wear it in class. I was told it would just confuse the beginners if I were to wear a white belt. I just line up at the end like a white belt would. So I would say, you earned it and should be allowed to wear it, just expect to be treated more like a white belt.

 

[Kirk]

But what about the kenpo rank you'd earn? I have no problem
with someone wearing the rank they've earned, wherever
they've earned it, but where's the kenpo rank, once one is
earned? How is it displayed? Is it typically more important
for a student to display his black, and not even give respect
to his OWN kenpo rank? I'd say at least colored tabs or
something on the black he/she is wearing.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Back about ten years or so ago when I was studying A K I went in with a white belt on after my first class the instructor asked the person I came in with where I had studyed befor and what my rank was. When told that I had a black belt he approched me and insisted that I where it.
I felt out of place in that class for a long time because people would see me in that belt and ask questins i could not answer. It was a great motivator to learn quickly but I never felt right till I earned my first blak for real in that class.
In my own school if a person just wants towork out (on vacation, visiting a friend,ect) I insist they wear there rank belt no matter what color it is( they earned it they wear it) however if they want to study for real put on the white until learning enough to wear the black

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
In my own school if a person just wants towork out (on vacation, visiting a friend,ect) I insist they wear there rank belt no matter what color it is( they earned it they wear it) however if they want to study for real put on the white until learning enough to wear the black

I like this approach for exactly the reasons you mention. I might make an exception in a class I was teaching for someone who studied a FMA so simlar to Modern Arnis that they could provide help; but whenever it's me going into a new class--as I just started doing--I where white. I'm there to learn and I'm trying to empty my cup as best I can.

 

[Jay Bell]

Back when I was teaching Kenpo, this was a pretty common thing. (Why do people even ask such things?) My take...was that people would absolutely *not* wear a dan grade obi from another style.

Other styles, even within the Kenpo community do things different. Different techniques, modification of basics and whatnot. We would often have people from Shotokan come in, check out class, then storm out when I explained that they couldn't wear their black obi.

Are people so arrogant that the idea of being a beginner again is too hard to grasp?

In our Bujinkan Taijutsu Dojo, we had a former "Koga ryu-ite" (it was pretty comical) who asked our instructor if he could throw on his black belt...his response to "no" was less then favorable.

 

[Klondike93]

to most of the instructors I know prefer that the black belt be worn so as not to confuse the lower belts, white, orange etc.
As a black belt it really doesn't matter what style, your going to be much better at the basics, so if your wearing a white belt it could discourage other white belts because you would be doing them easier. But, if the instructor tells you not to wear the black belt you shouldn't take it personal. this is why no matter what rank I am at in Kenpo, I'm at the end of the line, humility. It makes me a better student as well as a better instructor.

 

[Jay Bell]

As a black belt it really doesn't matter what style, your going to be much better at the basics

I don't agree with that at all. Taking a black belt ranked person from one art doesn't mean they'll pick anything up faster in another art....unless it's another type of the same art (IE -- Kenpo)

Now I've seen people that seem to believe they'll just surpass the rest of the group within weeks because they are dan graded in another art, but they soon find out pretty quick that their ego needs to find their place in things.

 

[Klondike93]

Depends on the black belt. If your a new black belt, you might be right. If you have been one for a while you will pick things up quicker than a beginner. Notice the key word, "beginner".
If you limit yourself to just the one art, then again you might have trouble picking stuff up. If there is an ego problem, then they don't need to be there cause they know it all then and won't learn a thing. I've been a black belt since jan. 1987 and after putting it off for so long, I want to become a "certified" black belt in American Kenpo. I do not expect any special treatment cause I'm a black belt either, but I also don't expect it take as long as a "beginner" would. Again, the key word "beginner".

 

[Cthulhu]

Just tossing in my two yen, and I believe others have already expressed something similar:

If you're training just for fun, informally, etc., and don't plan on ever testing in the new system, by all means, where whatever rank you earned previously.

However, if you plan on actually learning the system and testing for rank in said system, you'd better dig in that closet for your white belt. In my mind, it shows respect to the new instructor and your fellow students that you are willing to start as a beginner and are also willing to 'empty your cup'.

Cthulhu

 

[Bob Hubbard]

shows respect to the new instructor and your fellow students that you are willing to start as a beginner and are also willing to 'empty your cup'.

I agree with this 110%. You go to the school to learn, not show off. My GF gladly wears a white belt in our Arnis class, even though she's a 2nd Brown in Kenpo. Why? She respects the system enough to start at the beginning, and will happily work her way up. She even refused to wear her Kenpo gi and got a seperate uniform for training Arnis. Said "Its not right".

She's farther ahead than me, as she sees the similarities in the techniques and can keep track of them better than me.

I think thats it though....while you may be "good" at Art 1, in Art 2 you are a beginner. There are enough differences to keep them seperate arts, so you should treat them as such....until you're a black belt in both, and have made both systems 'yours'.

Just my opinion, certified white belt that I am.

:asian:

 

[shine]

'empty your cup'.

The witty comeback is: "I'll just get a big American sized cup!"



Does somebody have the original 'empty your cup' story on file we can post here? It's somewhat relevant to the discussion.

I don't care much for the saying myself. The only instructor(s) who used it on me really were incompetant and hiding behind the wise sayings of the East. These instructors were from another martial art, btw.

There is value in the story behind the saying but the way I take it this:

"Show respect in another instructor's school or you will soon find yourself unwanted."

And I think we've all seen it happen

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by shine


Does somebody have the original 'empty your cup' story on file we can post here? It's somewhat relevant to the discussion.

Oh boy. I'll try to do it from memory, so bear with me...

One day, a professor of philosophy visited a Zen master to discuss philosophy. After talking for a bit over tea, the Zen master realized that the professor was less interested in hearing what he had to say and more interested in spouting his own beliefs. After some time, the master offered to refill the professor's tea.

He poured and poured into the professor's cup until it began overflowing. The professor watched for a moment and spoke up, "Enough! No more will go in." To which the master replied, "To share my tea, you must first empty your cup of your own preconceptions".

...or something to that extent. If I could find my copy of Zen in the Martial Arts, I could do a much better job. Hope this made some sense.

Cthulhu
breaking my brain trying to remember shtuff