Is kata and bunkai a waste of time?

[MMAfreak]

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process. Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad. So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation. Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.

 

[exile]

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process. Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad. So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation. Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.

Have you done non-compliant training of the kind that people in the applied karate/bunkai-jutusu movement note as essential to make the brilliant SD techs locked up in the kata work as designed? Have you pressure-tested the kata in two-person drills with someone coming at you not with another karate technique and minimal damage intentions, but rather with street-attack techs—which is what karate was designed to give you tools to counter—and the possibility of getting bones broken or joints dislocated if you screw up, as described in Iain Abernethy's Black Belt article in the November 2007 issue?

There are at least half a dozen threads devoted to just this topic that are readily accesssible in MartialTalk's archives, which a simple use of the Search function will reveal to you. I'd suggest you look at the conversations that have already take place on this topic before launching a new rehash of something most of us who take kata training seriously are too tired of going over yet again to have much interest in another round of. For starters, take a look at http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29821 and http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14915.

Read these carefully and you will see exactly why those of us who view kata as the technique record of the karate-based arts take them seriously. Then we'll have something to talk about, eh?

 

[jks9199]

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process. Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad. So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation. Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.

It's also possible for a great MMA fighter or non-kata sparring pro to get their *** handed to them in a real fight...

Kata and applications training are not some magic wand that automatically creates a skilled fighter. Nor is sparring. It really comes down to how you train, and what you train for. If you've never trained for a wrestling grab, you'll have problems the first time you face one. If you've only done one-step, sequenced sparring, you'll find someone used to continuous free sparring to be more than you can handle. If your "self defense" training isn't built around realistic attacks with some realism in how you face them -- you'll find that you aren't ready for a real attack.

You need to balance your training; there's a place for practicing sequences of moves alone (which is really all a kata is, after all), with a compliant partner, and with a resisting partner. There's a place for scripted exercises, and a place for free sparring with various levels of contact.

If you put too much emphasis on any one part of the equation, you won't find success. Unfortunately, many instructors are not skilled at teaching in various methods; they repeat the same approach that they were taught -- but often lose something in the translation.

 

[Steel Tiger]

As Ex and JK have pointed out we all need balance in our training. Extremism is the death of good skills.

Take a look at modern Wushu. These people are often considered masters of forms, but application has fallen completely by the wayside. What about sport martial arts? No kata/forms here but I doubt many of them would be effective in a real situation. It just extremism.

Kata by itself will work as well as learning only from a book. They are essentially the same thing. I'm very proud of my forms but, while teach me how to do many things, they do not teach me about resistance of the actual feel of hitting someone, or something. My classes include forms, forms interpretation and application, one-step, bag and mitt work, and free sparring. With only one of these things you are standing at one end of the balance rather than in the middle.

 

[terryl965]

Kata and Bunkai is what you make of it, if you believe it is a waste of time then it is. Only your instructor can show you the light for the meaning behind these application. Best of luck in your training.

 

[tellner]

MMAF, you're actually right. Most kata work is more performance art than martial training. And most styles that have kata have way, way too many of them. I don't mean things like traditional Kendo where the kata are very short and usually encapsulate one or two ideas. Others with a three or four medium length forms plus a few for each of the weapons of the style make sense. There's enough there to span most of the major principles.

When you start getting into systems that have a dozen or more forms it's getting bigger than most people's headspace. When you hit ones like Wah Lum Preying Mantis which boasts over 100 forms it's become an exercise in memorization. There is precious little time to learn anything else or to extract much useful from any particular kata.

A lot of people will say "You get out of it what you put into it" and "All the good stuff is hidden there if you just work at it long enough". Our Late Grandmaster was a gawdlike fighter who could split trees with a glance and shatter mountains with his front kick. Who are you to question him? There's some truth there sure enough. But there's also a heavy dose of blaming the victim. If it doesn't work it means that you didn't work hard enough, long enough. You are at fault, not the training method.

The system may have nothing at all to do with how The Founder(tm) (any founder) learned to fight. More often they had something and came up with other things that worked. Someone wanted to learn how they did it, so they came up with forms to capture what they developed by a completely different process. It might work. It might not. It probably had nothing to do with the way they figured out their really good stuff.

There are people who use kata as an effective training tool. But they don't tend to break things down into excruciating detail with pages and pages to memorize much of the time. And they don't have elaborate catalogs of techniques for particular situations. "If he does A do B. If he does G do H," isn't fighting. It's what my teacher calls Organized Despair.

Nope. The ones who make forms training serve martial arts training instead of making it an end in itself tend to do things more or less like this:

They don't have many forms. And none of the forms is very long. The kata or whatever you call them mostly consist of basic root movements of the system divided into fairly short sequences. Any connected sequence that goes on for seven or eight moves is divorced from reality. No single exchange in a real confrontation lasts that long.

In the beginning you learn a little more form than you understand. More is introduced from time to time. But it's always a three-legged race between understanding, knowledge and skill. And of those knowledge is the least important. You learn some form. You learn how to use it in the context of the rest of class. And by "learn to use" you become comfortable with it and learn to apply it in many different ways in response to many situations. When you can do that and make it work you learn some more. From time to time as your general ability grows you go back to earlier material and use it in light of your new understanding and skill. If the curriculum has any connection to the way you are supposed to fight it will be used as a reference for principles and technique.

The point isn't to remember that such and such a move from the fourth form at brown belt level is used for this, that and the other thing. The point is to move well and be aware in everything you do but to do it without becoming attached to any particular technique. In a real fight you can't stop to remember specific chains of techniques. All you can do is be efficient, control the action and be familiar enough with your basics so that you will come up with something that follows the core principles of your style. That's when you begin to make the system into your own style.

At the beginning the teacher pulls out lessons from the form to give you something concrete to refer to. As you progress you come up with things on your own or you see something and want to remember it or have something to relate it to. Then the form is something you put your knowledge and experience into. That way your forms practice can help you remember and have a practiced response to unexpected things that happen. It might not be a sophisticated polished response, but at least it will be based on movements that you can perform efficiently and without having to think about. When kata training is done right if nothing else you'll be reinforcing good body mechanics. If your teacher hasn't cultivated good body mechanics and efficient movement in the students I don't know what to tell you.

 

[exile]

They don't have many forms.
And none of the forms is very long. The kata or whatever you call them mostly consist of basic root movements of the system divided into fairly short sequences. Any connected sequence that goes on for seven or eight moves is divorced from reality.
You learn how to use it in the context of the rest of class. And by "learn to use" you become comfortable with it and learn to apply it in many different ways in response to many situations.

These are the key, core points. To Tellner you listen... :yoda:

 

[Sukerkin]

Beat me to it, Exile :rei:.

 

[MJS]

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process. Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad. So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation. Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.

Others have already made some great points, but I'll toss in my 2 pennies as well. There are some great tools in kata. Of course, its very important to have a teacher who can show the applications. If someone doesnt understand the kata, its going to be pretty hard to translate the moves. IMHO, kata is just one part. Will you be able to fight just using kata? Some will say yes. IMHO, I feel that you need to incorporate the other tools into training as well, ie: sparring, resistance training, etc.

The things you take from kata, just like the techniques in Kenpo, are not and should not be set in stone. Its a tool to help build a foundation. Will you pull a full tech. off? Probably not, but you should be able to use a portion of that tech.

Also keep in mind that when you're working with a grappler, its good to have some grappling knowledge under your belt. Many of the takedown/tackle techniques that are in Kenpo, I like to work against a grappler. I'll use them to help me make any adjustments to the tech. to fine tune them.

So, in closing, as I said, kata is good. Is it the end all-be all? No, but there is alot of usefull material in it. Is sparring the end all be all? No. But its something that needs to be in the mix as well.

Mike

 

[YoungMan]

Always amuses me when someone with several years of training claims forms and form application are useless.
Forms are what help make a martial art more than just sparring and drills. Forms impart ideas and principles in a way different, but no less beneficial, than sparring. My instructor was a Korean national free fighting champion, in an era when it was brutal and you often risked your life at these tournaments. He believed strongly in forms and the wisdom they imparted.
And since forms contain many techniques that are designed to inflict pain and cause damage, they most definitely are martial.

 

[tellner]

So your teacher had some success fighting in his day. This is good. But whom was he fighting? It was people doing the same style with the same training methods. That doesn't give a fair basis for comparison. And it gets back to the same government propaganda we've hashed over so many times before: The Koreans and their kwans are just miles tougher, stronger, wiser, more brutal, faster, better fighters, ROK Marines et cetera ad infinitum.

MMAF is having the trouble applying his training against people who fight differently and train differently. If he's spent a few years training diligently in a forms-based style he should be able to hold his own against other people who have spent a few years training diligently in a non forms-based style. Since he isn't we need to take a look and see why. Saying "My teacher is tough and use those training methods" doesn't help unless he can offer some useful advice on how to solve this problem. It would help if that advice were based on relevant experience.

Besides, what exactly do you mean when you say that your coach "believes in" forms? Has he tried alternatives and found them wanting? How does he use the training method to good effect? What does he consider to be the important aspects of forms work? What are the benefits, and how are they achieved?

 

[Sukerkin]

There is nothing wrong with training via forms. It's the training method of choice for all cultures through all cycles of military evolution.

I hesitate to bang this drum yet again but if you perform kata without effective visualisation and understanding then it is just movement without function and it will be very difficult to apply (either in sparring or in a real fight).

If you do properly visualise, then applying those techniques to another situation is a relatively easy transition.

Of course, it is something that will vary from individual to individual and oddly enough kids are much better at it than adults because they more easily immerse themselves in the 'fantasy landscape' of the kata.

The more effectively you visualise then the easier the transition. By visualise I don't just mean the term the way athletics coaches do, where the focus is on imagining performing a technique perfectly. It is summoning up a virtual fight where you 'see' the environment, the opponents, how they move, were they are, what they are doing, how you are moving in relation to them and so on.

It's not easy at first but it makes a world of difference and you can soon tell who is visualising and who is rote repeating.

 

[Guardian]

Nothing is ever worthless, different applications for different reasons, yes, your right that you'll feel light years ahead with your training and hardcore practices compared to Kenpo that takes far longer to accomplish the same thing, but in the end, both do accomplish the same thing. It's a matter of personal choice.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

MMAfreak,

Kata means form. Properly practiced Kata develops proper form. Footwork, body mechanics, posture, transitions, basics, targeting, centers, triangulation, and alignment must be refined. If you're just in a rush to throw hands and don't want to take the time Kata practice demands you won't reap the refinement it produces. The mindset you're embracing is very common in MMA and looking at the results, I see a majority of fighters whose posture is poor and striking is very sloppy. On the other hand GSP & Machida 2 of the best strikers in the UFC have crisp striking with great form and just so happen to have very strong TMA backgrounds in arts that practice Kata.

Bunkai means to break down and analyze. Bunkai is mental training. Too many practitioners limit Bunkai to the few interpretations they've been shown by a teacher or seen on a video. To really study the bunkai of a movement you must experiment and think for yourself. This means trying the move with different distances, at all angles, and against various attacks and defenses. It also means getting rid of preconceived notions and trying to see how that blocking movement can be used as a strike or a lock or a throw and how to reinterpret strikes, kicks, chambers, and other body positions. The greatest benefit one should derive from Kata Bunkai is creativity and spontaneity in Martial Arts. Without creativity you will be limited to what you are taught. Without spontaneity you will suffer from the paralysis of analysis or be forced to limit and simplify your repertoire to "what works."

Of course after all is said and done - facing a non-compliant opponent at as close to full speed and full power as you can safely do within reason is an essential component of Martial Arts training. One does not preclude or replace the other. If you eliminate Kata and Bunkai and replace it with sparring and grappling only, you will develop real time skills against an opponent but you will not get the benefits you would have gotten from Kata and Bunkai. If you eliminate sparring and grappling and replace it with Kata and Bunkai only, you will develop great form and spontaneity but your skills will be untested.

_Don Flatt

 

[bowser666]

I am sure this has been repeated somewhere, but the whole purpose of forms , is for conditioning and honing technique. They are a necessary part of training in any art IMO . Not to mention it also helps keep your mind sharp ( memory) and helps you learn to breathe properly, Qi Gong , etc..... Many , many , benefits from doing forms. To not practice them is to take a shortcut and sometimes the longer road is the better one.

 

[harlan]

Just an addition:

http://seinenkai.com/articles/tankosich/tankosich3.html



Quote:

Translation of Mabuni's "Practice Karate Correctly"

In karate, the most important thing is kata. Into the kata of karate are woven every manner of attack and defense technique. Therefore, kata must be practiced properly, with a good understanding of their bunkai meaning. There may be those who neglect the practice of kata, thinking that it is sufficient to just practice [pre-arranged] kumite (13) that has been created based on their understanding of the kata, but that will never lead to true advancement. The reason why is that the ways of thrusting and blocking - that is to say, the techniques of attack and defense - have innumerable variations. To create kumite containing all of the techniques in each and every one of their variations is impossible. If one sufficiently and regularly practices kata correctly, it will serve as a foundation for performing - when a crucial time comes - any of the innumerable variations.

However, even if you practice the kata of karate, if that is all that you do, if your [other] training is lacking, then you will not develop sufficient ability. If you do not [also] utilize various training methods to strengthen and quicken the functioning of your hands and feet, as well as to sufficiently study things like body-shifting and engagement distancing, you will be inadequately prepared when the need arises to call on your skills.

If practiced properly, two or three kata will suffice as "your" kata; all of the others can just be studied as sources of additional knowledge. Breadth, no matter how great, means little without depth. In other words, no matter how many kata you know, they will be useless to you if you don't practice them enough. If you sufficiently study two or three kata as your own and strive to perform them correctly, when the need arises, that training will spontaneously take over and will be shown to be surprisingly effective. If your kata training is incorrect, you will develop bad habits which, no matter how much kumite and makiwara practice you do, will lead to unexpected failure when the time comes to utilize your skills. You should be heedful of this point.

Correctly practicing kata - having sufficiently comprehended their meaning - is the most important thing for a karate trainee. However, the karate-ka must by no means neglect kumite and makiwara practice, either. Accordingly, if one seriously trains - and studies - with the intent of approximately fifty percent kata and fifty percent other things, one will get satisfactory results.

 

[kidswarrior]

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process. Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad. So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation. Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.

As exile first said, we've been down this road too many times for me to get *up* for it again. May I take a different approach than the others here--each of whom has offered nuggets of wisdom in response? I'd say this, with all due respect, to someone who has a couple of years in the MA's and decides forms are useless: Don't do them. It's your practice, your life, so do what makes you happy.

On the other hand, such a decision would disqualify someone from training with me--but I'm probably not all that good anyway.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

To not practice them is to take a shortcut and sometimes the longer road is the better one.

Quicker results are not necessarily better. While it is important to be able to defend yourself today - don't do it at the expense of tomorrow. We live in a hurried society.
Microwave meals is one thing but microwave martial arts-:soapbox:.......

I plan on studying martial arts for the rest of my life. If I can get thru all the material in only a few years - what good is that to me? If I must rely on youthful speed and strength - what happens when I'm old?

_Don Flatt

 

[tellner]

Are you implying that martial arts which do not have kata are quick to learn but low quality? If you are then with all due respect you are dead wrong. There are plenty out there which are excellent and which do not have anything you would recognize as kata or kuen.

Kata are a training method which can be useful if valid material is taught correctly. They are not the Unholy Ichor of Great Cthulhu. They are not necessary to develop skill or understanding.

 

[YoungMan]

I don't think that's what is being said at all. I believe what they are saying is that forms, as practiced in martial arts that have them, are quite useful and impart ideas beyond sparring and drills. Not all styles have them. But forms themselves are not a waste of time at all.
I do think that proper forms practice requires a great deal of patience (very difficult for an energetic 20-something I know), and leads to a much deeper understanding of martial application.