When is kata, KATA?

[Patrick Skerry]

I understand that kata is a prearranged form of practice, either by yourself or with someone else.

Yet some styles of jiu-jitsu practice their kata as waza, i.e. the actual application of that technique under an attack condition, but not during free style.

So would practicing techniques on a Wing-chun wooden dummy, or throwing 'stars' at a wooden target, or practicing blocks with another person, be considered KATA?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

kata is a pre-arranged group of movements ....and waza means trick. you can take a movement from a kata and show many different waza from that single movement.
now as far as the other things you mentioned being kata......of course they can be. brushing your teeth can be a kata. making tea can be a kata. you can take any movement you do and make a kata out of it with waza. the techniques which include two people in judo, aikido, jujutsu are called kata.

shawn

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Hello BlackCatBonz,

It is my understanding that 'waza' means technique, and that tricks are a seperate entity from a waza. For example in Aikido, shiho-nage is a technique (waza), but shaking uke on the way down to aggravate his fall would be a 'trick'.

Kata uses waza (techniques) while randori (free-practice) incorporates some tricks along with its waza.

I don't think brushing your teeth falls into the pre-arranged form definition of a kata. I think brushing one's teeth falls more into the randori category of analogies.

So I would like to ask the question again, would practicing your waza (techniques) against a wooden dummy be considered Kata?

kata is a pre-arranged group of movements ....and waza means trick. you can take a movement from a kata and show many different waza from that single movement.
now as far as the other things you mentioned being kata......of course they can be. brushing your teeth can be a kata. making tea can be a kata. you can take any movement you do and make a kata out of it with waza. the techniques which include two people in judo, aikido, jujutsu are called kata.

shawn

 

[Baytor]

In my opinion, if you are using the same sequence of movement again and again to instill a certain principal, that would be a kata. To use your wooden dummy question, if you repeat the same drill that would be kata, but if you were flowing as you went along, that would not be.

My 2 cents.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Great! Thank you. Now to further distill this question: What would you call the process of "flowing as you went along"? And why wouldn't this be kata?

In my opinion, if you are using the same sequence of movement again and again to instill a certain principal, that would be a kata. To use your wooden dummy question, if you repeat the same drill that would be kata, but if you were flowing as you went along, that would not be.

My 2 cents.

 

[Baytor]

Great! Thank you. Now to further distill this question: What would you call the process of "flowing as you went along"? And why wouldn't this be kata?

Well, because I'm not really a traditional martial artist, I just call it "flowing", while you might call it "randori". It's like shadowboxing. I guess the reason that I don't consider it kata is because while you are using the principles from kata, there is no set order to the movement.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Yes, I believe there is a very large difference between 'kata' and 'randori', almost two different forms of like so to speak.

But I think you hit on the root of the problem. Again, as a simple example, when does practicing your blocks and punches on a wooden dummy transcend from kata to randori? Or does it?

I would consider punching a heavy bag or using a speed bag simply as an exercise like practicing uchi-komi in Judo (fit-ins). Yet uchi-komi is very much considered to be not kata or randori.

I think there is a grey area between the practice of technique which is neither kata nor free practice and I was wondering if any other martial artist has identified it yet. Could it be kumite? Thanks!

Well, because I'm not really a traditional martial artist, I just call it "flowing", while you might call it "randori". It's like shadowboxing. I guess the reason that I don't consider it kata is because while you are using the principles from kata, there is no set order to the movement.

 

[Baytor]

It couldn't be kumite unless John-Claude Van Dam was there doing the splits.:boing2:
I don't see there being any grey area though. If you are not following a pre determined set of movements, you are doing some other kind of drill. That's just my opinion, mind you. I think you'll need to talk to someone who is more experienced in the traditional systems to answer any other questions about it. :idunno:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think you're misinterpreting the translation which happens often......because a lot of teachers dont know the correct translation.
when performing shiho nage or heaven and earth throw with a partner over and over, this is referred to as a kata in the traditional sense of the word.
most people when they do something in the morning or at night fall into a routine and tend to do the same thing everytime with little variation(henka). so this too could be thought of as a kata.
do you see where i am going?

shawn

 

[RRouuselot]

I understand that kata is a prearranged form of practice, either by yourself or with someone else.

Yet some styles of jiu-jitsu practice their kata as waza, i.e. the actual application of that technique under an attack condition, but not during free style.

So would practicing techniques on a Wing-chun wooden dummy, or throwing 'stars' at a wooden target, or practicing blocks with another person, be considered KATA?

Good question on a topic that is widely misunderstood.

The word Kata simply means "form".
If you are by yourself or with a person, or practicing application=waza, anytime you are trying to improve technique by practicing it in repition then you are in effect practicing "form"="kata". Therefore, anything outside of a "real" fight you are in a sense practicing "form".

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Someone tried to tell me that two wrestlers practicing their moves were doing kata. Someone else tried to tell me that someone practicing on a wooden wing chun dummy was doing kata. Not only do I disagree with that view out of my formal instruction, but something just doesn't seem right with that reasoning.

Any curriculum of instruction I make up for one of my kyu students is not automatically kata, even I know that. But so when does kata become a KATA?
Thanks!

Good question on a topic that is widely misunderstood.

The word Kata simply means "form".
If you are by yourself or with a person, or practicing application=waza, anytime you are trying to improve technique by practicing it in repition then you are in effect practicing "form"="kata". Therefore, anything outside of a "real" fight you are in a sense practicing "form".

 

[RRouuselot]

Someone tried to tell me that two wrestlers practicing their moves were doing kata. Someone else tried to tell me that someone practicing on a wooden wing chun dummy was doing kata. Not only do I disagree with that view out of my formal instruction, but something just doesn't seem right with that reasoning.

Any curriculum of instruction I make up for one of my kyu students is not automatically kata, even I know that. But so when does kata become a KATA?
Thanks!

Look up the definition of the word kata in a Japanese/English Dictionary.
Next to it you will find the word "form".
When you work on improving the delivery of a technique(s) you work on form......kata. All techniques come from kata therefore practicing techniques is practicing kata.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Do you consider the practice of waza (technique) to be kata? I understand that the word kata means form, and in the martial arts it is a prearranged form, so then any form which is not prearranged is safe to conclude it is not a kata?

Look up the definition of the word kata in a Japanese/English Dictionary.
Next to it you will find the word "form".
When you work on improving the delivery of a technique(s) you work on form......kata. All techniques come from kata therefore practicing techniques is practicing kata.

 

[RRouuselot]

Do you consider the practice of waza (technique) to be kata? I understand that the word kata means form, and in the martial arts it is a prearranged form, so then any form which is not prearranged is safe to conclude it is not a kata?

All waza comes from kata (I'm speaking in terms of karate mind you) therefore practicing waza in a prearranged "form" is kata.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Thank you. I didn't mean to come across as being stubborn or dense, but the word 'prearranged' seems to be definitive.

All waza comes from kata (I'm speaking in terms of karate mind you) therefore practicing waza in a prearranged "form" is kata.

 

[Andrew Green]

Pretty sure kata means "form"

So any time you are working on form, be it a single technique or a set, you are doing kata.

But I'm not Japanese, nor am I in Japan. So really what difference does it make?

I mean I basically we english speaking people are debating the "correct" use of a foreign word that is used in our society as well. So do we mean what is kata in the sense of what do english speaking people generally mean by it? or by what Japanese people generally mean by it? or the technically correct usage you would find in a Japanese dictionary?

All three might be rather different. And there might even be different meanings if you divide those groupings farther.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

One cannot redefine a word to suit their own purpose, that is simply called rationalization. Kata has a specific meaning to the martial arts, and it is not up for redefinition by any sensei.

 

[RRouuselot]

Pretty sure kata means "form"

So any time you are working on form, be it a single technique or a set, you are doing kata.

But I'm not Japanese, nor am I in Japan. So really what difference does it make?

I mean I basically we english speaking people are debating the "correct" use of a foreign word that is used in our society as well. So do we mean what is kata in the sense of what do english speaking people generally mean by it? or by what Japanese people generally mean by it? or the technically correct usage you would find in a Japanese dictionary?

All three might be rather different. And there might even be different meanings if you divide those groupings farther.

I have given the correct definition of a Japanese word used in the Japanese/Okinawan arts. If people are going to study a Japanese art they might be helped by studying the definitions of the terms used in the art to truly understand what is being taught.

 

[SenseiBear]

Truly, as Robert has said, anytime you are practicing a set group of techniques, whether by yourself or with a partner, you are practicing kata. However, I find that good kata is a filing cabinet of techniques, and that most of the moves are archetypes... that any set of moves can have mutliple applications depending how you are attacked, and how you choose to respond, be it striking, throwing, grappling, pp fighting, etc... So you can work your kata as a whole, and train certain types of movements into your body, so that they become what I call "brake pedal responses", and then you work applications of techniques from the forms so you know what you can do with your reactions...

SB

 

[RRouuselot]

Just out of curiosity how do most people train doing kata?
I know when I see most karateka training in kata they do a certain called like Kusanku or one of the Pinan kata a couple of times and that's it.

What I usually do is practice the whole kata from start to finish, then go back through and work certain parts of the kata I feel I need to improve upon. I do this by repeating that move over and over as if I were doing punches or kicks. After that I work on the actual technique that that particular piece of kata represents ........usually with a partner.


Basically my class goes something like this on a good day.

Stretch
Junbiundo= basic exercises like blocks, kicks punches, various strikes

Bokken training for wrist, forearm and shoulder strengthening.

Sai training for hand strengthening using different movements from sai kata.

All empty hand Kata....over and over...and over
Weapons ....over and over...and over

Two man technique/bunkai practice from one or two of the empty hand kata.
We rotate round-robin style so that everyone in class eventually goes against all members present. This is done yakusoku style and can vary from slow to ¾ full speed depending on the level of the student.

Randori (free style) type grappling.....often protective gear is worn so strikes can be added.

Jiyu Kumite (free style) Always full contact with protective gear

Attacker-defender kumite with protective gear: like the name says ....we work on certain aspects of defending against an attack using mostly full contact strikes depending on the level of the student.

Aside from the streching and the bokken training we are using some form of technique found in the 12 empty hand kata we do.