How much "pressure testing" does BJJ actually do?

We do very, very similar stuff in Danzan Ryu. We emphasize different things..... meaning I would pick apart and change a lot of the nuance in his wristlock, to make it Danzan Ryu.... But I don't doubt that the lock works as he demonstrated it, and he is probably doing it correctly for Hapkido. (one day I will find a Hapkido school... I would love to compare and contrast the two arts, especially the nuance in them)
It's not exactly how we do it either. Hapkido is one of the most unregulated martial arts out there. It's kind of like Taekwondo in that every school has their own self-defense curriculum. Except instead of at least having a consistent (or relatively consistent) set of forms and sparring rules...all Hapkido has is the self-defense curriculum.

Some schools very much resemble TKD or TSD with a slightly different approach to striking. Some schools much closer resemble Aikido, but maybe with more emphasis on self-defense than on harmony.

For example, a lot of the examples I found for HKD videos were a take-down using a wristlock, but then finish by pinning the arm and striking, which is a lot closer to the TKD way of doing things. (Instead of finishing with a break).
From a Danzan Ryu perspective, anyone telling you that that arm bar with the knee / shin (the second finish you called out), is not a pin, control or submission would be correct. It was never meant to be. It is an arm break / elbow dislocation. The trick is getting to position of his first finish, but once there...
My thought process has always been it's the same as a strike. In striking, we pull our punches when training so we don't KO our training partners and rapidly build up CTE. But in a real self-defense situation, a striker is going for the KO so they can neutralize the threat.

Same thing here. If we were to spar with these techniques, we're not going to rip the submission just to prove we had it. We're going to pull the punch (so to speak). We're going to stop before we break the arm. Just like in striking sparring folks will generally recognize what would have been a knockout blow if you followed through, here folks recognize what would have been a broken elbow if you'd followed through.
 
Can you perform these moves now that you have all the back of house development needed to make stuff work?
I already could. I already knew I could.

The difference is now I can say definitely from a BJJ perspective (which is apparently the only one you respect) that I could.
Can you perform these moves traditionally too deadly to spar. In sparring now you understand how to spar grappling?
I never said they were too deadly to spar. That's you putting words in my mouth. Go argue with your hallucinations.
 
BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing. You might be surprised by this statement....

BJJ only deals with one on one and they are encouraged to go to the ground. In Aikido, they will regularly train dealing with multiple attackers and run multiple attacker drills. Anyone can deal with one person.... but dealing with multiple attackers is dealing with a lot more pressure.

I can hear it now.... but show me an Aikido student defeat a BJJ student.... if they can handle 3 or 4 guys at once, 1 should be very easy, yet usually the Aikido guy gets taken down and submitted on the ground....

The thing is "pressure testing" is a term we use to show how the other art is not as good as our art. Each art, has a different idea of what "pressure testing" is and what the successful outcome of that test should be. For BJJ that pressure is trying to submit a fully resisting guy in a ground fight, that may have started as a standing grapple. For Aikido, that pressure is trying to remain relaxed and fluid as you blend with multiple attackers. For TKD it is kicking the other guy who is trying to kick you. For Judo, it is throwing the other guy who is trying to throw you. For a Karate Kata contest, it is performing your Kata for the judges, in front of the audience trying to execute the perfect technique, better than the other competitors. These are all different kinds of pressure, and the success for each is defined differently. These produce different results. So, it depends on your goals as a student.

When I hear people say that a certain art does not pressure test their stuff.... what I really hear is that a certain art is aiming for a different result than my art, thus they do not use the same methods as mine. What you really need to do, is to find what results you are looking for and then find the art or school that produces those results.

When I hear schools say that they pressure test their stuff... what I really hear is that they believe that the result they are looking for is the best and only result... and they have adjusted their methodology to support that specific result. In this case, its a marketing term.

I don't think there is anything wrong with different schools looking for different results. I do think that claiming that another art does not pressure test their stuff means that you do not understand what results that art is going after.

If the school you are at, is taking you towards the result that you are looking for.... who cares what others say?
How many BJJ schools have you trained in?
How many Aikido schools have you trained in?
 
It's not exactly how we do it either. Hapkido is one of the most unregulated martial arts out there. It's kind of like Taekwondo in that every school has their own self-defense curriculum. Except instead of at least having a consistent (or relatively consistent) set of forms and sparring rules...all Hapkido has is the self-defense curriculum.

Some schools very much resemble TKD or TSD with a slightly different approach to striking. Some schools much closer resemble Aikido, but maybe with more emphasis on self-defense than on harmony.

For example, a lot of the examples I found for HKD videos were a take-down using a wristlock, but then finish by pinning the arm and striking, which is a lot closer to the TKD way of doing things. (Instead of finishing with a break).

My thought process has always been it's the same as a strike. In striking, we pull our punches when training so we don't KO our training partners and rapidly build up CTE. But in a real self-defense situation, a striker is going for the KO so they can neutralize the threat.

Same thing here. If we were to spar with these techniques, we're not going to rip the submission just to prove we had it. We're going to pull the punch (so to speak). We're going to stop before we break the arm. Just like in striking sparring folks will generally recognize what would have been a knockout blow if you followed through, here folks recognize what would have been a broken elbow if you'd followed through.
Doesn't this resolve your whole argument and OP? I cannot think of a style that does Not at least think they are training this way. I really comes down to how much of the pressure you put into the technique doesn't it. Assuming you have a resistive partner.
 
Doesn't this resolve your whole argument and OP? I cannot think of a style that does Not at least think they are training this way. I really comes down to how much of the pressure you put into the technique doesn't it. Assuming you have a resistive partner.
I think you're confusing the terms "pressure" and "pressure testing".

In jiu-jitsu, pressure is a concept (and sometimes a submission) where you simply use your weight to make the other person suffer. Pressure is usually applied through knee-on-belly (exactly what it sounds like) or various pinning positions where you get into side control or mount. Kesa gatame is a prime example:

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However, pressure testing is something completely different. Pressure testing often has little to do with "pressure" as a force, but rather the philosophical pressure of "does it work live?"

An example of pressure testing is: I can nail a scissor sweep during the drilling/technique portion of class. But can I hit it when we get to live rolls? If I can, can I hit it on people that it actually means something to hit it on?
  • Maybe it only works for me in drills. My pressure testing is that it doesn't work.
  • Maybe it only works for me against white belts that are smaller than me. So I can make it work, but is that the bar?
  • Maybe I can make it work on white or blue belts up to my weight class. As a purple belt, that's still not good enough for me.
  • Maybe I can hit it on any white belt at will, most blue belts with proper setup (except for that one guy who weighs 375 pounds), I've hit it on several purple belts, and while I haven't finished the sweep on a brown or black belt, I've at least knocked them over and used the ensuing scramble to improve my position.
  • Maybe I can even hit it on brown and black belts at will.
The concept of pressure, as a method of inflicting gravity on another person, is mostly absent from the idea of pressure testing, the idea of increasing resistance to your technique until you've hit the point of failure. Maybe "resistance testing" would be a better term for it.
 
Each art, has a different idea of what "pressure testing" is and what the successful outcome of that test should be. For BJJ that pressure is trying to submit a fully resisting guy in a ground fight, that may have started as a standing grapple. For Aikido, that pressure is trying to remain relaxed and fluid as you blend with multiple attackers. For TKD it is kicking the other guy who is trying to kick you. For Judo, it is throwing the other guy who is trying to throw you. For a Karate Kata contest, it is performing your Kata for the judges, in front of the audience trying to execute the perfect technique, better than the other competitors. These are all different kinds of pressure, and the success for each is defined differently. These produce different results. So, it depends on your goals as a student.
Nah, most of what you're describing is a matter of "what" is being pressure tested, not a definition of what pressure testing is.

Pressure testing is just a matter of trying to make your technique work against someone who is trying to make your technique not work. (Whether that's ground grappling, punches to the face, or kicks to the groin.)

Aikido "randori" against multiple attackers would absolutely be pressure testing if the multiple attackers are actually trying to make the defender fail at defending. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Aikido dojos don't train that way, but a few do.
Is your question more along the lines of: If we are really pressure testing, why don't we smash immediately every time we roll, until she figures out how to handle it?

Basically, yes. It's challenging the idea that we're pressure testing as much as we think we are.

I think the argument (or at least mine) is more: People state that they know their art works and these moves work because they pressure test them.

But if the person they went against was only going at 50% (and particularly if they don't tell you that directly/you don't realize it), you as an individual have no proof that what you learn would work, even if you think it does. You can trust the process, and trust that the person teaching you has pressure tested it, but your own pressure testing does not validate the system/techniques itself.

Kinda like those videos of people trying out ridiculous grab escapes, that seem to work against the instructor, then they go home and try it out on their friend and aren't able to do it. Because it only works if the person you're going against goes easy on you.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Using the example from before, if I'm going 20% and she's going 100% and she thinks it works, does that give her the same false sense of security that people claim TMAs give?
Every technique and every practitioner will fail under sufficient pressure. The purpose of pressure testing is to find out where that failure point is (and hopefully learn enough about the circumstances of failure so that we can improve and extend the threshold before failure.

Whether I'm testing my ability to punch someone in the face, keep someone else from punching me in the face, take someone down, get up from being taken down, choke someone out or keep them from choking me out, I want to know when it will not reliably work.

Is it an opponent with skills above a certain level?
Is it an opponent with size or athletic attributes above a certain level?
Is it an opponent with a certain style of movement or fighting?
Is it a particular set of circumstances?
Is it my own condition in the moment (distracted, sick, sleep deprived, intimidated, angry, etc)?
Is it a specific technical counter that I don't know how to deal with?

None of this requires that my opponent go 100% all the time. If I sparred with Gordon Ryan, he could probably beat me easily while putting out less than 10% of his maximum effort. I'd still learn a bunch of failure points in my capabilities.

For that matter I can still learn from rolling with a 6-month white belt who I'm beating easily. There will be moments when I'm trying to make one thing happen and the white belt will defend well enough that I have to switch gears and execute a different technique. That's still a failure point that I can study.

Using the example of the white belt who manages to make something work when she's going 100% and you're going 20%: she's only going to get a false sense of security if she thinks that you're going 100%. Even if she makes that mistake, she should be getting enough feedback from rolls with other students to correct the confusion.

In general, the pressure level should be sufficient so the practitioner encounters regular failure, but light enough so they also encounter at least some success. (Success doesn't have to mean winning a round or scoring a point. It might just be escaping a bad position.)
I remember conversations back when I was mainly a TKD/HKD guy, that centered on the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about because these arts don't pressure test in the same way as combat sports. That BJJ is a far superior martial art because you can go 100% in training without much increase in risk.

What I've found is that (in addition to there being more risk in BJJ than in TKD sparring):
  • Upper belts take it easy on me. Nowadays I can give the brown and fresh black belts a run for their money, but more experienced black belts still have their kids gloves on.
  • Often when something DOES legitimately work on an upper belt, it's because you caught them sleeping or they're working on their B-game.
  • Bigger folks take it easy on me. Even white belts are sometimes holding back their strength or don't want to put their full pressure on me.
  • Most folks take it easy on women, especially at my gym where most of the women are white belts.
  • There is competition...but you're matched based on age, size, skill, and gender. So it's pressure tested in a very controlled environment.
I'd say for the vast majority of my training, I'd consider my skills "pressure formed", but not necessarily "pressure tested".
You can get closer to 100% in ground grappling than in stand up striking with less risk. There are hardcore BJJ competitors who will do high-intensity sparring 2 hours per day, 6 days per week. In contrast, a boxer who spars 100%, 2 hours per day, 6 days per week, is likely to suffer serious concussions and possible brain damage before he ever gets to a real match. (Which is why most boxers don't do that.) That's an advantage for technical development of ground grappling, but it doesn't mean BJJ is better than boxing. If you are going to deal with punches in a fight, you're going to have to deal with the safety limitations of training with hard punches, no matter what art you're coming from.
 
How many BJJ schools have you trained in?
How many Aikido schools have you trained in?
In California, I took a few classes and 3 or 4 different BJJ schools. (I was constantly training Danzan Ryu, but would try to get out and get some BJJ on the side... but timing never worked out for me to continue) Then, after moving to Florida, I was able to spend 4+ years training BJJ at one school.

For the last 15 years, I have been regularly cross training in Aikido. Our dojo brings in all of the top Aikido instructors from around the world... if they are teaching in Orlando, they are most likely teaching at our dojo. Our Aikido school is led by 3 6th dan Aikidoka under Ikeda Sensei. (who was just here two weeks ago)

Just curious where you are going with your question?
 
Aikido "randori" against multiple attackers would absolutely be pressure testing if the multiple attackers are actually trying to make the defender fail at defending. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Aikido dojos don't train that way, but a few do.
I am kind of surprised I don't have a black eye (and some explaining to do at work today) from the punch I failed to block.... in Aikido class last night.
 
Every technique and every practitioner will fail under sufficient pressure. The purpose of pressure testing is to find out where that failure point is (and hopefully learn enough about the circumstances of failure so that we can improve and extend the threshold before failure.

Whether I'm testing my ability to punch someone in the face, keep someone else from punching me in the face, take someone down, get up from being taken down, choke someone out or keep them from choking me out, I want to know when it will not reliably work.

Is it an opponent with skills above a certain level?
Is it an opponent with size or athletic attributes above a certain level?
Is it an opponent with a certain style of movement or fighting?
Is it a particular set of circumstances?
Is it my own condition in the moment (distracted, sick, sleep deprived, intimidated, angry, etc)?
Is it a specific technical counter that I don't know how to deal with?

None of this requires that my opponent go 100% all the time. If I sparred with Gordon Ryan, he could probably beat me easily while putting out less than 10% of his maximum effort. I'd still learn a bunch of failure points in my capabilities.

For that matter I can still learn from rolling with a 6-month white belt who I'm beating easily. There will be moments when I'm trying to make one thing happen and the white belt will defend well enough that I have to switch gears and execute a different technique. That's still a failure point that I can study.

Using the example of the white belt who manages to make something work when she's going 100% and you're going 20%: she's only going to get a false sense of security if she thinks that you're going 100%. Even if she makes that mistake, she should be getting enough feedback from rolls with other students to correct the confusion.

In general, the pressure level should be sufficient so the practitioner encounters regular failure, but light enough so they also encounter at least some success. (Success doesn't have to mean winning a round or scoring a point. It might just be escaping a bad position.)
So then what are your thoughts on the smaller white belt that bigger folks and upper belts let work?

In the case of the 100-pound white belt woman who taps me in a round because I was giving it 10% effort and letting her work.

But also what of the case of me, being one of the smallest guys in my gym? It's hard to know what worked because it worked, and what worked because someone wasn't giving it 100%.
 
To use your example, if any of your techniques do succeed against Gordon Ryan at 10%, how do you know it succeeded because of your technique, and not because of the 90% that was left on the table?
 
I am kind of surprised I don't have a black eye (and some explaining to do at work today) from the punch I failed to block.... in Aikido class last night.
Was your partner trying to make you fail your block or did you just mess up your execution of the technique you were practicing?

(No shade intended if it was the later. I've certainly done my share of getting punched because I was paying more attention to thinking about the mechanics of a technique than where my partners fist was headed.)

It could be argued that there is a certain amount of pressure involved when your training partner throws a punch at your face and leaves it up to you to defend correctly. But just for the purpose of having clean definitions, I draw the line of calling it "pressure testing" when your partner is deliberately trying to make your defense fail. If that's how you were training, that's excellent. I've only seen a small minority of Aikido practitioners practice that way.
 
Was your partner trying to make you fail your block or did you just mess up your execution of the technique you were practicing?

(No shade intended if it was the later. I've certainly done my share of getting punched because I was paying more attention to thinking about the mechanics of a technique than where my partners fist was headed.)

It could be argued that there is a certain amount of pressure involved when your training partner throws a punch at your face and leaves it up to you to defend correctly. But just for the purpose of having clean definitions, I draw the line of calling it "pressure testing" when your partner is deliberately trying to make your defense fail. If that's how you were training, that's excellent. I've only seen a small minority of Aikido practitioners practice that way.
We started the drill throwing the punch to hit the other guy, so that the other guy can defend or get hit. Once we get that down, we ramp up to trying to hit the other guy despite him doing the defensive technique. Ideally, we get to actively trying to make the initial attack work, so the defender has to make his technique work against a real attack.

Last night we had certainly left the "throw the punch so he can defend it" range.... But, unfortunately we did not get to full "I am going to hit you, despite your using the defensive technique" phase. (for my pride I will say we were very close to this when I got nailed.... but really, we were somewhere in the middle of that range... and we had to back down a little for me to straighten out the details of the technique)
 
To use your example, if any of your techniques do succeed against Gordon Ryan at 10%, how do you know it succeeded because of your technique, and not because of the 90% that was left on the table?
Honestly, I expect that if Gordon Ryan went 100% that he would shut down everything I did.

As far as the techniques I might possibly pull off against a 10% Gordon Ryan, they'd either be
  • the moves I was executing most correctly compared to my other techniques or
  • moments when he deliberately pulled back and allowed me to try something without resistance
I have enough experience so that I can generally tell when a superior technician is backing off the level of resistance they are offering me.

If I ever have the chance to roll with Gordon Ryan, my main takeaway will be studying the ways my techniques fail against him, not getting excited about anything that he allows me to succeed with.

So then what are your thoughts on the smaller white belt that bigger folks and upper belts let work?

In the case of the 100-pound white belt woman who taps me in a round because I was giving it 10% effort and letting her work.

But also what of the case of me, being one of the smallest guys in my gym? It's hard to know what worked because it worked, and what worked because someone wasn't giving it 100%.
For a smaller noob who doesn't have anyone going 100% with them yet, here's what I would look at:

What percentage resistance are my training partners giving me? If they're giving me 10% resistance when I start out and 6 months later they're giving me 50% resistance, that's a sign that I'm improving.

Which techniques and movements are having success? Even if my partner is only going 10%, he's probably not going to shut down my best techniques and then allow me to tap him with my worst technique.

Succeed or fail, do I even know what technique I should be trying to attempt in a given situation?

If I know what technique to try, do I start my attempt in time before the situation changes?

If I know the right technique to try and I attempt it at the right time, does my partner have to counter it or does it fail immediately based on my technical flaws? If it fails before being countered, can I recognize at least some of my technical flaws causing that to happen? If it's countered, can I recognize any of the technical flaws which allowed it to be countered? Do I know the next step I should be trying to counter the counter?

If you don't have anyone to train with that you can make any technique work on when they're going 100%, then you don't know the threshold of difficulty you could succeed at in a real competition or a real fight. But you do know some of the limits beyond which you definitely won't succeed and you do have tools to improve your threshold of success.
 
We started the drill throwing the punch to hit the other guy, so that the other guy can defend or get hit. Once we get that down, we ramp up to trying to hit the other guy despite him doing the defensive technique. Ideally, we get to actively trying to make the initial attack work, so the defender has to make his technique work against a real attack.

Last night we had certainly left the "throw the punch so he can defend it" range.... But, unfortunately we did not get to full "I am going to hit you, despite your using the defensive technique" phase. (for my pride I will say we were very close to this when I got nailed.... but really, we were somewhere in the middle of that range... and we had to back down a little for me to straighten out the details of the technique)
I'm a fan of this graduated approach. I think that (for most people) only training at full resistance isn't any more productive than never training at full resistance.
 
Honestly, I expect that if Gordon Ryan went 100% that he would shut down everything I did.

As far as the techniques I might possibly pull off against a 10% Gordon Ryan, they'd either be
  • the moves I was executing most correctly compared to my other techniques or
  • moments when he deliberately pulled back and allowed me to try something without resistance
I have enough experience so that I can generally tell when a superior technician is backing off the level of resistance they are offering me.

If I ever have the chance to roll with Gordon Ryan, my main takeaway will be studying the ways my techniques fail against him, not getting excited about anything that he allows me to succeed with.


For a smaller noob who doesn't have anyone going 100% with them yet, here's what I would look at:

What percentage resistance are my training partners giving me? If they're giving me 10% resistance when I start out and 6 months later they're giving me 50% resistance, that's a sign that I'm improving.

Which techniques and movements are having success? Even if my partner is only going 10%, he's probably not going to shut down my best techniques and then allow me to tap him with my worst technique.

Succeed or fail, do I even know what technique I should be trying to attempt in a given situation?

If I know what technique to try, do I start my attempt in time before the situation changes?

If I know the right technique to try and I attempt it at the right time, does my partner have to counter it or does it fail immediately based on my technical flaws? If it fails before being countered, can I recognize at least some of my technical flaws causing that to happen? If it's countered, can I recognize any of the technical flaws which allowed it to be countered? Do I know the next step I should be trying to counter the counter?

If you don't have anyone to train with that you can make any technique work on when they're going 100%, then you don't know the threshold of difficulty you could succeed at in a real competition or a real fight. But you do know some of the limits beyond which you definitely won't succeed and you do have tools to improve your threshold of success.
I agree, but I also think it takes a lot of experience and knowledge to be able to apply this flowchart.
 
The other day I asked Roger Gracie how he developed all the details in his technique that make it so unstoppable
He said "It's because I failed at it more than everyone else"
And on further discussion he said that he was able to beat all the best because they weren't as comfortable failing during training as he was

I think a good definition of pressure testing is failure
 
The other day I asked Roger Gracie how he developed all the details in his technique that make it so unstoppable
He said "It's because I failed at it more than everyone else"
And on further discussion he said that he was able to beat all the best because they weren't as comfortable failing during training as he was

I think a good definition of pressure testing is failure
Yes and no.

If you're performing a form and you fail to remember that Step 15 is a high block, that failure doesn't necessarily make you a better fighter.
 
i have learned that if you just prevent someone from get the arm bar on you action stops that's no fun! Ive been arm barred so much im surprised my arms are still on my body! so i started thinking do i prevent the arm bar or do i learn to get out of a arm bar? thought hit me, do both! am happy to say i am not getting arm barred so much any more, finally after three years and a lot of pain and a very thick head i am moving better received my 4th stripe on my blue belt, all thanks goes to my BJJ classmates cause it is they that helped get me to where i am today! have some very very very good wonderful rolls!
 
Yes and no.

If you're performing a form and you fail to remember that Step 15 is a high block, that failure doesn't necessarily make you a better fighter.
Hiya yeah I guess I'm referring to a technique that's being used in practice
 
i have learned that if you just prevent someone from get the arm bar on you action stops that's no fun! Ive been arm barred so much im surprised my arms are still on my body! so i started thinking do i prevent the arm bar or do i learn to get out of a arm bar? thought hit me, do both! am happy to say i am not getting arm barred so much any more, finally after three years and a lot of pain and a very thick head i am moving better received my 4th stripe on my blue belt, all thanks goes to my BJJ classmates cause it is they that helped get me to where i am today! have some very very very good wonderful rolls!
I think this is a very important point and kinda what Roger was referring to
So for example if you're training with someone you can beat easily then let them get good positions on you and practice getting out of a bad spot. If you want to work on something you're no good at then put yourself into that position when you roll. Sometimes you'll have to tap to a lower belt and, by my earlier definition, that's how you constantly pressure test yourself irrespective of who you're rolling with (& actually help them try stuff against an experienced person)

Unless they don't realise that that's what you're doing and get cocky.....
 
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