Rock-paper-scissors

[skribs113 133]

I have a friend that's been doing BJJ almost as long as I have. He's a blue belt like me, a stripe behind me. He's a lot bigger than me (by about 30-40 pounds). He usually is in control of our rolls, but is working really hard to maintain it.

There's a purple belt at the gym who's been going slightly longer than I have. He always seems to have my number. But my blue belt friend has choked him out several times. There's a white belt that I rolled with yesterday who is much bigger than me and has really, really long arms and legs for his size, and I was surprised with how easy it was to roll against him. Then I overheard my friend talking to him about how much pressure he was under for the whole round.

It got me wondering - is there a rock/paper/scissors to this game? Or even something more like rock/paper/scissors/lizard/Spock? Because sometimes when my friend and I are talking about rolling with folks, I feel we must have rolled in alternate realities, because the guy's he's having success against are smoking me, and the guys he's struggling with I'm flow rolling and still in complete control.

 

[Tony Dismukes112 8]

Yep. This is part of why fight commentators frequently say that "styles make matches."

You can't just calculate that fighter A has a combat effectiveness of 7 and fighter B has a combat effectiveness of 5, therefore A wins. Practitioners do not have skills and attributes in all areas in equal proportions. It's entirely possible that your strengths match up well with one person's weaknesses and then that person's strengths line up with another person's weaknesses, and that person's strengths match up with your weaknesses.

 

[skribs113 133]

Yep. This is part of why fight commentators frequently say that "styles make matches."

You can't just calculate that fighter A has a combat effectiveness of 7 and fighter B has a combat effectiveness of 5, therefore A wins. Practitioners do not have skills and attributes in all areas in equal proportions. It's entirely possible that your strengths match up well with one person's weaknesses and then that person's strengths line up with another person's weaknesses, and that person's strengths match up with your weaknesses.

Are there some generalities that you've seen over time, as to what styles might hard- or soft-counter other styles?

 

[Tony Dismukes112 8]

Are there some generalities that you've seen over time, as to what styles might hard- or soft-counter other styles?

Not really. There are so many variables that I've never been able to break it down into specific patterns. The only thing I have seen consistently is that people get used to the styles of the people they spar with regularly. So If you're only used to a particular type of movement and someone comes in with a very different approach, there can be a learning curve before you know how to deal with them.

 

[isshinryuronin3 3]

There are so many variables

Most styles I believe contain the means to deal with most other styles' fighting methods. The main variable may be just how well one is able to choose the correct means and employ their skill and full understanding of their style.

 

[Tony Dismukes112 8]

Most styles I believe contain the means to deal with most other styles' fighting methods. The main variable may be just how well one is able to choose the correct means and employ their skill and full understanding of their style.

Just to be clear, when I wrote about dealing with different styles I wasn’t talking about different martial arts. I was talking about styles of individual people. One person might be a slow, methodical counter-fighter. Another might be faster and more aggressive. One person might be very technically precise, while another might be more unorthodox and creative. One person might take advantage of being long and lean, while another might take advantage of being short and compact.

And that’s just generalities that could apply to any martial art. In BJJ, there is a huge technical vocabulary which allows different practitioners to develop very different approaches. One person might prefer to pull half-guard, sweep, and come up to an over-under pass. Another person might prefer to take their opponent down with a single leg, then threaten a knee cut pass as a setup for a leg entanglement and a leg lock. Some prefer to fight from bottom of guard, others from the top. Some prefer pressure passes, some prefer mobility based passes. Some prefer to rack up points, others prefer to just hunt submissions. Depending on how finely you draw the lines between them, there are over 20 kinds of BJJ guards and they each have their proponents.

Focusing on fundamental concepts rather than lists of specific techniques to handle each style helps, but it can still be a challenge when a sparring partner presents you with a type of energy and a set of tactics that you don’t have experience in dealing with.

 

[isshinryuronin3 3]

Just to be clear, when I wrote about dealing with different styles I wasn’t talking about different martial arts. I was talking about styles of individual people. One person might be a slow, methodical counter-fighter. Another might be faster and more aggressive. One person might be very technically precise, while another might be more unorthodox and creative. One person might take advantage of being long and lean, while another might take advantage of being short and compact.

Ahh. Yes, that is a different problem. And more difficult. Whereas a system style may contain the means to combat other systems, an individual may not have the means, having neglected to develop his toolbox and specific skills to combat an opponent with a different individual fighting style.

If a short guy can't effectively close the gap, he will have a hard time landing a strike. If the tall guy is too slow or can't use his long limbs to wrap up and intertwine the opponent's limbs in close, he will have a rough time as well.

If a passive/counter fighter has poor footwork and body movement to evade, an aggressive fighter may have an edge. The aggressive fighter may be outclassed by a technically superior one with good timing who finds the right time and place to strike. A fighter who can't stand the heat, well, stay out of the kitchen.

Although uncomfortable, we need to seek out opponents with traits hard for us to cope with as you never know what type of opponent you may confront. I had a huge problem with really tall guys when I was young. It seemed (and was) hopeless. Now it makes little difference to me. Your ego may take a beating as well as your body, but who said MA was easy?

As you said, there are countless variables, including psychological ones. Every opponent will offer different challenges. That's what makes sparring so fun. In the street, it measures 100% of the fighter's total self.

 

[HighKick]

Are there some generalities that you've seen over time, as to what styles might hard- or soft-counter other styles?

I would say there are physical attributes that 'generally' help a person in certain styles. For example, long legs, shorter body is the go to physique for WT competitors. Sorter and stockier are good for Karateka.
Beyond that, I feel it is just like Tony Dismukes said, and it is all over the map.
The guys that impress me the most are the ones that have what I call gymnast strength. They don't 'look' all that strong but man-oh-man are they stout.

 

[drop bear114 53]

I have no idea about leg entanglements. And blown knees scare me. So If I get in to one almost every one can tap me out in them.

Conversely my top pressure game is pretty good. So If you can't escape Kesagtami you are going to stay there.

 

[HighKick]

I have no idea about leg entanglements. And blown knees scare me. So If I get in to one almost every one can tap me out in them.

Conversely my top pressure game is pretty good. So If you can't escape Kesagtami you are going to stay there.

I never thought much about knee injury until I had to but I certainly feel ya now.

I had a knee scope as a teenager due to a meniscus tear from football. About 5-6 years later I was in an upper level WTTKD tournament and a guy intentionally kicked the front of my lead knee and bent it back (pelican). Tore some more meniscus and ligaments. Early on, this was a legal kick and some guys took advantage of it. Took about three years before they finally made it an illegal kick.

 

[skribs113 133]

Yesterday I had a talk with the white belt in question. He had my blue belt friend in a position that the blue belt tried to escape, and in the escape attempt pulled a muscle. The blue belt was saying he didn't really have any options. The white belt then said that he'd tried the same position on me several times, and I just easily slipped out of it every time. That's when I brought up rock-paper-scissors.

The white belt told me the difference between me and most of the other folks in the gym is that he can feel them tense up to prepare for an explosive movement. Because he's so long and so strong, he's usually able to defeat that explosion. But with me, I'm relaxed. And sneaky. He'll be setting up well for a good position, but then all of a sudden he's swept, or I'm back in guard, or he's somehow taken 3 steps back in his sequence.

I've had another white belt say the same thing. This guy isn't as long and strong, but he does have some wrestling experience that gives him an edge in the standup. He's told me exactly the same thing I once said about a brown (now black) belt of ours: he thinks he's got me, he thinks he's got everything lined up to pass my guard or sweep me, and then suddenly I pull an uno reverse card and he's pinned on his back.

 

[drop bear114 53]

 

[Darren1]

Just to be clear, when I wrote about dealing with different styles I wasn’t talking about different martial arts. I was talking about styles of individual people. One person might be a slow, methodical counter-fighter. Another might be faster and more aggressive. One person might be very technically precise, while another might be more unorthodox and creative. One person might take advantage of being long and lean, while another might take advantage of being short and compact.

And that’s just generalities that could apply to any martial art. In BJJ, there is a huge technical vocabulary which allows different practitioners to develop very different approaches. One person might prefer to pull half-guard, sweep, and come up to an over-under pass. Another person might prefer to take their opponent down with a single leg, then threaten a knee cut pass as a setup for a leg entanglement and a leg lock. Some prefer to fight from bottom of guard, others from the top. Some prefer pressure passes, some prefer mobility based passes. Some prefer to rack up points, others prefer to just hunt submissions. Depending on how finely you draw the lines between them, there are over 20 kinds of BJJ guards and they each have their proponents.

Focusing on fundamental concepts rather than lists of specific techniques to handle each style helps, but it can still be a challenge when a sparring partner presents you with a type of energy and a set of tactics that you don’t have experience in dealing with.

everyone learns different and in there on way, there are those that can just do it good,those that can`t,etc everyone is different it seems according to there own body,mind and what they been given to work with.