Male coaches can't roll with female students

[skribs113 133]

Disclaimer 1: This thread is based on new rules at my gym, which are based on situations that have happened outside of my gym. To my knowledge, there have been no incidents or allegations of this type of misconduct at my gym. This is a proactive response my gym is taking in effort to avoid:

1. This kind of situation happening at our gym, which would hurt the students.
2. Fake allegations of this kind of situation happening at our gym, which would hurt the coaches.

Disclaimer 2: This thread is specifically discussing the secondary risk of these new measures. In cybersecurity, secondary risk is the risks that are introduced through security measures. For example, a harder password is easier to forget, which may impact your ability to login. It's the same idea as side effects in medicine: ibuprofen is great, but not if it gives you nosebleeds (like it does to me). Obviously the misconduct is far worse than any of the ramifications discussed in this thread. However, because this isn't a problem at my gym, the secondary effects become more noticeable.

The situation: Recently there's been many public allegations of sexual misconduct in BJJ between male coaches and female students, sometimes underage students. This has been public enough that IBJJF has published guidance on the situation. When this happens, there's a few problems at play:

1. The biggest problem: students who are directly hurt by the coach's misconduct.
2. The creation of a hostile training environment because of the misconduct.
3. The call into question of the ranking system: were promotions at this gym legitimate or were they the result of quid-pro-quo; and/or were people held back in rank because they did not accept unwanted advances.

IBJJF specified requirements (I'm not sure if new or reiterated) to help protect students and coaches:

1. All black belts in IBJJF must be SafeSport certified. (I do know there's a requirement that all IBJJF black belts have CPR and first aid training).
2. All black belts put into a teaching role in an IBJJF-affiliated gym must have a criminal history background check performed.

While this won't completely stop misconduct from happening, it will at least:

1. Give black belts training on how to spot misconduct from other coaches.
2. Reduce the chance of people with prior misconduct from being put into positions of power.

The new rule: The new rule at my gym, as of yesterday, which is designed both to protect the students and the coaches is this: if you are an adult male and you will line up on the coach's side of the line at the end of class, you are not to roll with female students in that class. Student-student there's no restrictions, coach-coach there's no restrictions, and I don't believe there's restrictions for female coaches.

A "coach" is:

• A black belt.
• An adult in the kids classes.
• A brown belt who has been designated as a coach in the gym. (Some brown belts line up coach's side, some line up student's side).

As someone in cybersecurity governance, and someone who has volunteered to perform background checks and security controls specifically to protect youth (in this case, for a church youth group), I believe these measures do a very good job of accomplishing the desired goal. However, because this kind of misconduct was not happening at my gym (to my knowledge) it creates the following secondary problems:

1. If the kids class is uneven, boys can roll with a coach, girls have to sit out for the round. This creates an unfair advantage for boys who get extra rounds and extra personalized coaching.
2. Often at my gym, the women are significantly smaller than most of the men. Coaches are usually the best at managing the size gap and giving the smaller student reasonable room to work. As the guy who has been the smallest in the gym for most of my tenure here (to the point where 90% of my rolls are 3+ weight classes up), I recognize the value in rolling with someone who will let you get some actual work in. Especially early on.
3. I know one big method professors use to evaluate students for promotion is by rolling with them. This way you can see how they respond to specific situations and overall get a feel for how they're using their pressure and leverage. This gives female students less opportunity to show their progress to a professor.
4. Upper-rank students now may have less opportunities for upper-rank roles. Our adult female students include mostly white belts. We have one purple belt who's been out for a long time due to injury. When she comes back, under this rule, she wouldn't be able to roll with most of the brown or any of the black belt men. Brown-purple is a different dynamic than brown-white or black-purple. But it still could be blocked by this rule.

Personally, I'm a little bit frustrated by this situation. As I've iterated numerous times in this thread, if the misconduct were happening at my gym, it would be reprehensible and should be squashed. But because it isn't happening, these new restrictions I feel have unfair negative effects specifically towards the women and girls in the class. However, I'm not the one who would need to deal with a lawsuit if one were to arise.

It is something that is on my mind, because I am planning on opening my own TKD school in the near future. However, Taekwondo is not nearly as intimate a martial art as BJJ, and so I think there's a lower primary risk in drilling or sparring with a female student during regular class. (I would implement policies to make sure coaches aren't alone with minors or with female students in which there's a power imbalance; including during opening, closing, and private lessons).

 

[wab25]

I would implement policies to make sure coaches aren't alone with minors or with female students in which there's a power imbalance; including during opening, closing, and private lessons

This is probably the most important thing you can do.... always have other people there, never be alone or isolated. If you are alone, they can claim you rolled with them, told them it was okay this once and did something. It then becomes he said, she said and he should never have rolled with her to begin with.... now he has multiple things to argue, all at the same time....

Never be alone with any student, always have witnesses.... it protects both of you.

As far as what your gym is doing.... it seems it is how they want to protect themselves.... I can't fault them, as I have seen some scary things happen.

Our organization had a black belt instructor who was accused of touching a child on the mat. He was arrested and thrown in jail, where everyone knew what he was accused of. His job fired him. His fiancée left him. He lost his house and his car, because he could not make payments being in jail. Our organization immediately booted him out. When they got around to the court proceedings he was let off.... The other students on the mat testified that he did not doing anything wrong, as did the parents that were there in attendance that day, as well as his teaching assistant. It turned out that the girl and her mom thought she should be promoted and the sensei did not. Even with all the witnesses, and being innocent.... he still lost everything due to an untrue accusation. Our organization did welcome him back, once the investigation cleared him of wrong doing. But, you can't be too careful.

Maybe you gym is over reacting.... but, I have seen scary things happen to innocent people.... Could make you want to become a Zoom Sensei, where there is no way you can do anything to any one and have them all recorded to prove that..... We all have to strike a balance and live with the results.

 

[skribs113 133]

This is probably the most important thing you can do.... always have other people there, never be alone or isolated. If you are alone, they can claim you rolled with them, told them it was okay this once and did something. It then becomes he said, she said and he should never have rolled with her to begin with.... now he has multiple things to argue, all at the same time....

Never be alone with any student, always have witnesses.... it protects both of you.

As far as what your gym is doing.... it seems it is how they want to protect themselves.... I can't fault them, as I have seen some scary things happen.

Our organization had a black belt instructor who was accused of touching a child on the mat. He was arrested and thrown in jail, where everyone knew what he was accused of. His job fired him. His fiancée left him. He lost his house and his car, because he could not make payments being in jail. Our organization immediately booted him out. When they got around to the court proceedings he was let off.... The other students on the mat testified that he did not doing anything wrong, as did the parents that were there in attendance that day, as well as his teaching assistant. It turned out that the girl and her mom thought she should be promoted and the sensei did not. Even with all the witnesses, and being innocent.... he still lost everything due to an untrue accusation. Our organization did welcome him back, once the investigation cleared him of wrong doing. But, you can't be too careful.

Maybe you gym is over reacting.... but, I have seen scary things happen to innocent people.... Could make you want to become a Zoom Sensei, where there is no way you can do anything to any one and have them all recorded to prove that..... We all have to strike a balance and live with the results.

One thing to add: security cameras. While it can't catch every individual action of what happens during a roll, it can at least give a sense of what's going on. We have surveillance in our gym that both protects the gym in case something bad happens to the gym (i.e. someone breaks in and steals stuff), something bad happens to a student in the gym (we can verify what happened and take accountability), or something bad is alleged at the gym (such as the case you described).

The rule may get relaxed in the future as the publicity of what's happened with other schools in the organization fades. I also think it would be less of an issue if we had more upper-belt women, but we only have one black belt woman across our 3 schools, no brown, and I don't believe any active blue or purple either (except for the one I mentioned that's been injured for quite some time).

 

[skribs113 133]

One thing I do want to say: I don't know that there's a definitive right answer to this discussion. You want to protect your training partners. You want to protect them from:

• Assault or harassment by a coach, which is less likely the less frequent contact there is with the coach.
• Injury, which is more likely to happen the more frequently you roll with inexperienced bigger/stronger folk.
• Poor fundamentals due to lower quality training partners, which is more likely to happen the less frequently you roll with people that push you physically or technically.

 

[wab25]

Assault or harassment by a coach, which is less likely the less frequent contact there is with the coach.

I would not single out coaches.... anyone can be a victim and anyone can be the perpetrator.... even student to student.... I would set the same bar for students and coaches... this is for everyone's protection.

As a school head, if one student abuses another student.... you will be looked at.... how did you let the situation develop.... what safe guards were in place and how were they followed.

The point here is that the abusers are not always coaches.... coaches can be abused as well as students... and students can abuse each other.....

So, yes, I do disagree with the way your gym is handling things.... they are assuming that only coaches will be the perpetrators.

One solution would be to always roll in groups of 3.... 2 people roll, one watches, watching that they don't roll into another group or wall, the watcher can coach the two rolling and or learn by closely watching what is going on.

Another solution might be to always have a "life guard" watching the pool. One person, preferably a coach level person will not roll, but watch the group. The life guard can rotate when folks get new partners.

No matter what the solution you choose..... never allow one on one, private interaction of any kind. Even if you have a one on one private class.... have other people or another person in the room, where they can both see and hear what is going on.

 

[skribs113 133]

I would not single out coaches.... anyone can be a victim and anyone can be the perpetrator.... even student to student.... I would set the same bar for students and coaches... this is for everyone's protection.

The specific concern here is with the power imbalance. It's one thing to raise allegations within the gym against Joe Schmoe the white belt that rolls rough with everyone. It's another to raise allegations against Sensei Master whose wife and kids help run the school. Who is responsible for approving your belt promotions (especially if you're in the young and impressionable age of <25) and who might have a say in your competition career and/or teaching career.

The power imbalance is the big thing here.

One solution would be to always roll in groups of 3.... 2 people roll, one watches, watching that they don't roll into another group or wall, the watcher can coach the two rolling and or learn by closely watching what is going on.

Then everyone gets 33% less training.

Another solution might be to always have a "life guard" watching the pool. One person, preferably a coach level person will not roll, but watch the group. The life guard can rotate when folks get new partners.

We already do this most of the time. Kids classes always have life guards to keep them physically safe. Adults usually have one black belt watching at least most of the rounds.

 

[wab25]

The specific concern here is with the power imbalance. It's one thing to raise allegations within the gym against Joe Schmoe the white belt that rolls rough with everyone. It's another to raise allegations against Sensei Master whose wife and kids help run the school. Who is responsible for approving your belt promotions (especially if you're in the young and impressionable age of <25) and who might have a say in your competition career and/or teaching career.

The power imbalance is the big thing here.

I never said coaches would not be the issue, nor a power imbalance. I just think you should include the students.... there can be power imbalances between them as well.... and even if you don't define them as being on the same level, they might....

When Sensei Master runs a school, whose policies do not address and keep the students safe from each other.... if something happens, they can and will come after Sensei Master for negligence at least.... Just because Sensei Master did not do the deed, does not mean he is not responsible.... he is the one responsible for setting the policies.....

Then everyone gets 33% less training.

Or.... everyone rolling gets personal coaching..... I didn't say this was the best way, I said it was a way..... I see this done when new students start their first rolls... someone watches them, coaches them..... If a female needs to get the experience with rolling with a coach, having another female watch, coach, learn from.... essentially have eyes on, will go a long way towards preventing situations. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing type solution.

We already do this most of the time. Kids classes always have life guards to keep them physically safe. Adults usually have one black belt watching at least most of the rounds.

I would do this all the time... and even with the adults.... especially if you are concerned about accusations.....

 

[HighKick]

Disclaimer 1: This thread is based on new rules at my gym, which are based on situations that have happened outside of my gym. To my knowledge, there have been no incidents or allegations of this type of misconduct at my gym. This is a proactive response my gym is taking in effort to avoid:

1. This kind of situation happening at our gym, which would hurt the students.
2. Fake allegations of this kind of situation happening at our gym, which would hurt the coaches.

Disclaimer 2: This thread is specifically discussing the secondary risk of these new measures. In cybersecurity, secondary risk is the risks that are introduced through security measures. For example, a harder password is easier to forget, which may impact your ability to login. It's the same idea as side effects in medicine: ibuprofen is great, but not if it gives you nosebleeds (like it does to me). Obviously the misconduct is far worse than any of the ramifications discussed in this thread. However, because this isn't a problem at my gym, the secondary effects become more noticeable.

The situation: Recently there's been many public allegations of sexual misconduct in BJJ between male coaches and female students, sometimes underage students. This has been public enough that IBJJF has published guidance on the situation. When this happens, there's a few problems at play:

1. The biggest problem: students who are directly hurt by the coach's misconduct.
2. The creation of a hostile training environment because of the misconduct.
3. The call into question of the ranking system: were promotions at this gym legitimate or were they the result of quid-pro-quo; and/or were people held back in rank because they did not accept unwanted advances.

IBJJF specified requirements (I'm not sure if new or reiterated) to help protect students and coaches:

1. All black belts in IBJJF must be SafeSport certified. (I do know there's a requirement that all IBJJF black belts have CPR and first aid training).
2. All black belts put into a teaching role in an IBJJF-affiliated gym must have a criminal history background check performed.

While this won't completely stop misconduct from happening, it will at least:

1. Give black belts training on how to spot misconduct from other coaches.
2. Reduce the chance of people with prior misconduct from being put into positions of power.

The new rule: The new rule at my gym, as of yesterday, which is designed both to protect the students and the coaches is this: if you are an adult male and you will line up on the coach's side of the line at the end of class, you are not to roll with female students in that class. Student-student there's no restrictions, coach-coach there's no restrictions, and I don't believe there's restrictions for female coaches.

A "coach" is:

• A black belt.
• An adult in the kids classes.
• A brown belt who has been designated as a coach in the gym. (Some brown belts line up coach's side, some line up student's side).

As someone in cybersecurity governance, and someone who has volunteered to perform background checks and security controls specifically to protect youth (in this case, for a church youth group), I believe these measures do a very good job of accomplishing the desired goal. However, because this kind of misconduct was not happening at my gym (to my knowledge) it creates the following secondary problems:

1. If the kids class is uneven, boys can roll with a coach, girls have to sit out for the round. This creates an unfair advantage for boys who get extra rounds and extra personalized coaching.
2. Often at my gym, the women are significantly smaller than most of the men. Coaches are usually the best at managing the size gap and giving the smaller student reasonable room to work. As the guy who has been the smallest in the gym for most of my tenure here (to the point where 90% of my rolls are 3+ weight classes up), I recognize the value in rolling with someone who will let you get some actual work in. Especially early on.
3. I know one big method professors use to evaluate students for promotion is by rolling with them. This way you can see how they respond to specific situations and overall get a feel for how they're using their pressure and leverage. This gives female students less opportunity to show their progress to a professor.
4. Upper-rank students now may have less opportunities for upper-rank roles. Our adult female students include mostly white belts. We have one purple belt who's been out for a long time due to injury. When she comes back, under this rule, she wouldn't be able to roll with most of the brown or any of the black belt men. Brown-purple is a different dynamic than brown-white or black-purple. But it still could be blocked by this rule.

Personally, I'm a little bit frustrated by this situation. As I've iterated numerous times in this thread, if the misconduct were happening at my gym, it would be reprehensible and should be squashed. But because it isn't happening, these new restrictions I feel have unfair negative effects specifically towards the women and girls in the class. However, I'm not the one who would need to deal with a lawsuit if one were to arise.

It is something that is on my mind, because I am planning on opening my own TKD school in the near future. However, Taekwondo is not nearly as intimate a martial art as BJJ, and so I think there's a lower primary risk in drilling or sparring with a female student during regular class. (I would implement policies to make sure coaches aren't alone with minors or with female students in which there's a power imbalance; including during opening, closing, and private lessons).

Just going to say it this way to start the chatter. That is a stupid rule change that will do little to nothing to address Anything. Hard stop.

 

[skribs113 133]

I don't spend much time on social media, so I wasn't fully aware of the allegations that were going around that sparked this. I've done a little bit of digging, and from what I can tell, this is the story (as alleged):

A gym owner had been inappropriate with underage girls in the gym. One of the girls reported the harassment or assault to the owner's wife, and was basically told to act business as usual, not to raise a stink about it, not to "bite the hand that feeds you". Some time after that, the girl decided to go public, and (at least for now) a lot of the upper belts at that gym have left. More women have come forward and said there's problems at the gym. Men seemed to be unaware, but as soon as the allegations were made, they separated ties from the gym.

Other women (unrelated to the gym) have spoken on the subject, and said that this sort of thing was more prevalent in the past, but has become less common in recent years (largely thanks to increased social awareness of harassment and movements such as the MeToo movement). However, they stress that it's still important to raise awareness when things like this happen, because it still happens and it needs to be stamped out wherever it comes up.

I'm going to raise the question to those running gyms (especially BJJ gyms) or to those who have been in some sort of crisis support role (police, therapist, etc.), what rules would you have in place to help protect both the girls and coaches at the gym, and what rules would you avoid implementing?

 

[HighKick]

I don't spend much time on social media, so I wasn't fully aware of the allegations that were going around that sparked this. I've done a little bit of digging, and from what I can tell, this is the story (as alleged):

A gym owner had been inappropriate with underage girls in the gym. One of the girls reported the harassment or assault to the owner's wife, and was basically told to act business as usual, not to raise a stink about it, not to "bite the hand that feeds you". Some time after that, the girl decided to go public, and (at least for now) a lot of the upper belts at that gym have left. More women have come forward and said there's problems at the gym. Men seemed to be unaware, but as soon as the allegations were made, they separated ties from the gym.

Other women (unrelated to the gym) have spoken on the subject, and said that this sort of thing was more prevalent in the past, but has become less common in recent years (largely thanks to increased social awareness of harassment and movements such as the MeToo movement). However, they stress that it's still important to raise awareness when things like this happen, because it still happens and it needs to be stamped out wherever it comes up.

I'm going to raise the question to those running gyms (especially BJJ gyms) or to those who have been in some sort of crisis support role (police, therapist, etc.), what rules would you have in place to help protect both the girls and coaches at the gym, and what rules would you avoid implementing?

It is something that as an owner you Always stay in front of, keep in the open, and make fully apparent to anyone and everyone at all times. We do tactile training and touching is part and parcel to the point it is not thought of when training. Truly the 'it happens' quotient is never an issue as it is simply understood. That is engrained into discussions about your training at every level, especially to the public. I even go above and beyond with the verbiage in our contracts and our liability insurance indemnity. It is part of every student intake.
If you try to keep stuff like this in the dark, you are in for a world of hurt.
The incident you mentioned is well outside the environment and contract norms. And should be addressed as such and FULLY public. Again, get ahead of it and address it. Drive the narrative, don't let it drive you out of business.
In 42-years, I have had two incidents where someone cried impropriety. Both ended up being more about hurt feelings than anything else. All our instructors are background checked. I am not familiar with the other standard you mentioned but we have our own internal standards that are adhered to. The vetting process for becoming an instructor is not arduous but rigid.
Anyone or any entity who claims they can predict and prevent what a person may do is straight-up a liar. Bad and sad things happen in the real world. We do our best to prevent and mitigate, then we move on.

 

[skribs113 133]

It is something that as an owner you Always stay in front of, keep in the open, and make fully apparent to anyone and everyone at all times.

I don't 100% agree with this approach, at least the way I understand it. You don't want to make it weird or awkward. There's a lot of close contact in jiu-jitsu. If you don't think about it as an intimate thing, it's not a big deal. If you start to think about it that way, it becomes awkward.

I do agree that staying in front of these kinds of issues is important. It's just the "to anyone and everyone at all times" that seems over-the-top to me.

It's the same issue I had for example with gun safety in videos. For the longest time, it seemed like any gun video you watch, there's a 5-minute lecture on the rules of gun safety before you get to the actual content of the video. Some folks were saying it's important because gun safety is important. But if you watch 5 videos back-to-back, it gets a bit redundant and annoying.

I am not familiar with the other standard you mentioned but we have our own internal standards that are adhered to.

SafeSport is a program for Olympic sports which provides training and guidelines for sports coaches and schools, as well as requirements for programs that are directly affiliated with the Olympics. The training and guidelines include things like prevention of bullying, hazing, and other forms of misconduct, but the large majority of the training focuses on sexual harassment and assault.

For example, one guideline is that it is not sufficient to simply wait until a student is of legal age of consent (usually 18) before forming a relationship, because the groundwork for that relationship would have been built while that student was underage. Instead, if you're in a position of power and significantly older than the student (5 years), then a relationship should wait until the student is 25. If a 40-year-old instructor starts dating an 18-year-old student that they've known for 10 years, even if nothing happened before the student turned 18, it will most likely look like there was an improper relationship and they just went public when the student hit legal of consent. If a 40-year-old instructor starts dating a 25-year-old student, it's still going to raise some eyebrows, but not necessarily red flags.

I think SafeSport is mostly aimed at martial arts in which those competing in the Olympics are very young, such as in gymnastics, where from the 1970s-1990s the average age ranged between 16-18 (although now it's around 22, which is still very young). However, the training and guidelines are useful for any sport in which kids train and compete.

 

[HighKick]

I don't 100% agree with this approach, at least the way I understand it. You don't want to make it weird or awkward. There's a lot of close contact in jiu-jitsu. If you don't think about it as an intimate thing, it's not a big deal. If you start to think about it that way, it becomes awkward.

I do agree that staying in front of these kinds of issues is important. It's just the "to anyone and everyone at all times" that seems over-the-top to me.

It's the same issue I had for example with gun safety in videos. For the longest time, it seemed like any gun video you watch, there's a 5-minute lecture on the rules of gun safety before you get to the actual content of the video. Some folks were saying it's important because gun safety is important. But if you watch 5 videos back-to-back, it gets a bit redundant and annoying.

SafeSport is a program for Olympic sports which provides training and guidelines for sports coaches and schools, as well as requirements for programs that are directly affiliated with the Olympics. The training and guidelines include things like prevention of bullying, hazing, and other forms of misconduct, but the large majority of the training focuses on sexual harassment and assault.

For example, one guideline is that it is not sufficient to simply wait until a student is of legal age of consent (usually 18) before forming a relationship, because the groundwork for that relationship would have been built while that student was underage. Instead, if you're in a position of power and significantly older than the student (5 years), then a relationship should wait until the student is 25. If a 40-year-old instructor starts dating an 18-year-old student that they've known for 10 years, even if nothing happened before the student turned 18, it will most likely look like there was an improper relationship and they just went public when the student hit legal of consent. If a 40-year-old instructor starts dating a 25-year-old student, it's still going to raise some eyebrows, but not necessarily red flags.

I think SafeSport is mostly aimed at martial arts in which those competing in the Olympics are very young, such as in gymnastics, where from the 1970s-1990s the average age ranged between 16-18 (although now it's around 22, which is still very young). However, the training and guidelines are useful for any sport in which kids train and compete.

I absolutely make if overtly understood by student and especially parents that there Will be touching in all body parts. And encourage them to ask and comment on what they see. NO ONE (else) is talking about it being sexual but it is damn well going to be intimate in the subjective sense sometimes.

Ah, Safe Sport. I was referring to some other alphabet soup you mentioned at some point. I do not use it for my business but our AAU and Olympic competitors are required to go through some sessions.

 

[skribs113 133]

If the kids class is uneven, boys can roll with a coach, girls have to sit out for the round. This creates an unfair advantage for boys who get extra rounds and extra personalized coaching.

Saw something similar to this the other day. There was really bad traffic in our town, so only 5 kids made it to class. The one girl in the class was teenager-sized, where all four boys in the class were kid-sized. Yet, it was always one of the boys rolling with a coach. The girl didn't really get any chance to do much work, because she had such a size advantage. She basically just played with kids gloves the entire class.

 

[Darren1]

I don't spend much time on social media, so I wasn't fully aware of the allegations that were going around that sparked this. I've done a little bit of digging, and from what I can tell, this is the story (as alleged):

A gym owner had been inappropriate with underage girls in the gym. One of the girls reported the harassment or assault to the owner's wife, and was basically told to act business as usual, not to raise a stink about it, not to "bite the hand that feeds you". Some time after that, the girl decided to go public, and (at least for now) a lot of the upper belts at that gym have left. More women have come forward and said there's problems at the gym. Men seemed to be unaware, but as soon as the allegations were made, they separated ties from the gym.

Other women (unrelated to the gym) have spoken on the subject, and said that this sort of thing was more prevalent in the past, but has become less common in recent years (largely thanks to increased social awareness of harassment and movements such as the MeToo movement). However, they stress that it's still important to raise awareness when things like this happen, because it still happens and it needs to be stamped out wherever it comes up.

I'm going to raise the question to those running gyms (especially BJJ gyms) or to those who have been in some sort of crisis support role (police, therapist, etc.), what rules would you have in place to help protect both the girls and coaches at the gym, and what rules would you avoid implementing?

my father is a preacher or was 86 years old now, but he was never alone with a lady and if he was going to be he had other people with him that. went 30 years without ever touching a man.

 

[HighKick]

I don't spend much time on social media, so I wasn't fully aware of the allegations that were going around that sparked this. I've done a little bit of digging, and from what I can tell, this is the story (as alleged):

A gym owner had been inappropriate with underage girls in the gym. One of the girls reported the harassment or assault to the owner's wife, and was basically told to act business as usual, not to raise a stink about it, not to "bite the hand that feeds you". Some time after that, the girl decided to go public, and (at least for now) a lot of the upper belts at that gym have left. More women have come forward and said there's problems at the gym. Men seemed to be unaware, but as soon as the allegations were made, they separated ties from the gym.

Other women (unrelated to the gym) have spoken on the subject, and said that this sort of thing was more prevalent in the past, but has become less common in recent years (largely thanks to increased social awareness of harassment and movements such as the MeToo movement). However, they stress that it's still important to raise awareness when things like this happen, because it still happens and it needs to be stamped out wherever it comes up.

I'm going to raise the question to those running gyms (especially BJJ gyms) or to those who have been in some sort of crisis support role (police, therapist, etc.), what rules would you have in place to help protect both the girls and coaches at the gym, and what rules would you avoid implementing?

I am so happily impressed and amazed how much parents help parents with this, who in turn can help kids as needed. Kids should Never be left alone physically and (more importantly) mentally. It is Very much about setting and keeping the right tone. Definitely a sense of professionalism and indifference about some of the contact. There is an undefined line for the age of innocence, where kids are oblivious to touching (and rightfully should be) and when they become more aware. It can get awkward, but absolutely much be kept in the light and kept understood within the confines of training. If everything is done as it should be, simply said, kids or parents that cannot handle that do not need to be training. Hard stop and no harm, no foul. Just don't mess it up for the majority who can.

There is an ENOUMOUS difference between outright intentional grabbing an inappropriate area and making incidental contact in Conjunction with a bigger movement. If you (general 'you') don't understand this or at least cannot explain it in an acceptable manner, you are part of the problem.

 

[skribs113 133]

There is an ENOUMOUS difference between outright intentional grabbing an inappropriate area and making incidental contact in Conjunction with a bigger movement.

And it depends a little bit, too, because there are some techniques in which you're going to be intentionally grabbing an area that would in other contexts be inappropriate. For example, a high crotch take-down in wrestling, any pinning position where you go chest-to-chest, the seatbelt grab where your hands lock over your opponent's chest (usually from turtle or from the back), a significant amount of the guard attacks in BJJ such as triangle chokes, the -oplata attacks (omoplata, tarikoplata, baratoplata) in which you are squeezing the opponent between your legs, and the defense often involves framing against the glutes.

It's of course different from something like TKD where a significant amount of the training is either non-contact or contact through very thick padding, and 99+% of the remaining contact is grabbing arms or legs without nearly the closeness of the positions in BJJ.

 

[HighKick]

And it depends a little bit, too, because there are some techniques in which you're going to be intentionally grabbing an area that would in other contexts be inappropriate. For example, a high crotch take-down in wrestling, any pinning position where you go chest-to-chest, the seatbelt grab where your hands lock over your opponent's chest (usually from turtle or from the back), a significant amount of the guard attacks in BJJ such as triangle chokes, the -oplata attacks (omoplata, tarikoplata, baratoplata) in which you are squeezing the opponent between your legs, and the defense often involves framing against the glutes.

It's of course different from something like TKD where a significant amount of the training is either non-contact or contact through very thick padding, and 99+% of the remaining contact is grabbing arms or legs without nearly the closeness of the positions in BJJ.

Fully agree.
Since we are such a hybrid school, most of what you mentioned is just part and parcel with the training. We just use the English wording for chokes and locks, as is done in collegiate wrestling.
I am saying the overt or 'sleezy' grab to certain body parts when it is Fully out of bounds.
Not even a joking but intentional crotch hit between guys is explicitly wrong all the time. But you never want to be on the receiving end.