suicide
Black Belt
what was your exp. like ?
:redcaptur
:redcaptur
how many people here have been enrolled in mcdojos ?
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Ah, but how does one know that it is indeed a McDojo? That is the question.
There are a number of traits that are fairly common in a lot of schools, including McDojos, but are not limited to McDojos.
Contracts and outside billing companies are staples of the McDojo but are also used by traditional schools and non-McDojos.
Two year black belts, child black belts, and blackbelt clubs are also staples of the McDojo, but non-McDojo schools can have any one or all of the above.
Even things like after school programs and summer camps do not automatically make the school a McDojo.
Daniel
There are a number of traits that are fairly common in a lot of schools, including McDojos, but are not limited to McDojos.
Contracts and outside billing companies are staples of the McDojo but are also used by traditional schools and non-McDojos.
Two year black belts, child black belts, and blackbelt clubs are also staples of the McDojo, but non-McDojo schools can have any one or all of the above.
Even things like after school programs and summer camps do not automatically make the school a McDojo.
Daniel
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I did, for about three years. It was a mish mash of styles with a root in american karate. The instructor was a gifted martial artist, but I grew increasingly uncomfortable with the way he ran his business. We had mandatory belt testings every 3 months. I was a purple belt, but was so uncomfortable I would never tell anyone my rank. We did some sparring, which I enjoyed, but he was evasive about his past experience, where he trained and in what styles he held rank.
Ultimately, like most people, I stayed for as long as I did because it was fun and I genuinely liked the guy. I would make excuses about how no school is perfect and the good outweighs the bad. But at the same time, I knew I needed to find something better. Shortly after my kids lost interest I began looking around on the internet and stumbled onto Bullshido. I began reading about Aliveness and learning more and more about the different styles that exist and how there are alternatives.
Even then, it was a few months until I went into class and we spent the entire time trying to recreate a fight scene from the Matrix Reloaded (I kid you not). That was it for me. I was embarrassed for myself and for the entire school. After class, I wished him luck and the next week I wandered into the BJJ school for the first time. I consider myself very lucky to have done so.
Ultimately, like most people, I stayed for as long as I did because it was fun and I genuinely liked the guy. I would make excuses about how no school is perfect and the good outweighs the bad. But at the same time, I knew I needed to find something better. Shortly after my kids lost interest I began looking around on the internet and stumbled onto Bullshido. I began reading about Aliveness and learning more and more about the different styles that exist and how there are alternatives.
Even then, it was a few months until I went into class and we spent the entire time trying to recreate a fight scene from the Matrix Reloaded (I kid you not). That was it for me. I was embarrassed for myself and for the entire school. After class, I wished him luck and the next week I wandered into the BJJ school for the first time. I consider myself very lucky to have done so.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Daniel, I think that everyone KNOWS for themselves. While there are common traits and external things that can indicate that a school isn't on the up and up, you know for yourself. I did, even before I knew that there were alternatives. I simply made excuses for it until I chose to leave.
Well, I like to give credit where credit is due, so, I will say that my original school, while it may not have been 100% mcdojo, gave me a path to follow in my marital arts journey. Of course, once I started seeing other things out there, I guess the phrase, "If I knew then what I know now." comes into play. 
Jaspthecat
Orange Belt
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That is too funny....
Well I am not sure if there were any studies done but I can guess and say millions maybe.:erg:
All kidding aside, Every school can be considered a McDojo by someone.
Xinglu
Black Belt
I had one person tell me that if you're not training out of someone's backyard (or garage) it's a McDojo. He also went on to tell me that anyone who tries to make any amount of money is bullshido. So according to him - most Dojos are McDojos.
I just smiled at him and wished him luck in his training.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
It was... yeah.
Haze
Blue Belt
I spent some time at a dojo that had kata and lots of sport type sparring. We worked hard and conditioning was a major factor in our training. We did not get into too much of the bunkai of the kata.
I didn't consider it a McDojo but it really was not Traditional Karate (as advertised) either.
I do remember students being told that they need to get their requirements up to par or they will fall behind on their testing schedule. This seemed a little McDojo-ish. You know the type "We Are A Black Belt School",,, as if that is what the training is all about, getting that coveted BB.
Now that I think about it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,humm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I didn't consider it a McDojo but it really was not Traditional Karate (as advertised) either.
I do remember students being told that they need to get their requirements up to par or they will fall behind on their testing schedule. This seemed a little McDojo-ish. You know the type "We Are A Black Belt School",,, as if that is what the training is all about, getting that coveted BB.
Now that I think about it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,humm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Could also be that they were a decent sport school.I spent some time at a dojo that had kata and lots of sport type sparring. We worked hard and conditioning was a major factor in our training. We did not get into too much of the bunkai of the kata.
I didn't consider it a McDojo but it really was not Traditional Karate (as advertised) either.
I do remember students being told that they need to get their requirements up to par or they will fall behind on their testing schedule. This seemed a little McDojo-ish. You know the type "We Are A Black Belt School",,, as if that is what the training is all about, getting that coveted BB.
Now that I think about it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,humm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I do not know what art, but if it was taekwondo, lack of bunkai is not uncommon. There is not ample material on it for TKD, though Ian Abernathy's work certainly can be applied and Simon O'Niell's book, the Taegeuk Cipher, provides an excellent source for Kukkiwon practitioners. I would gather that the ITF encyclopedia contains bunkai for the Chang Hon forms, but I do not know how common it is for ITF instructors to actually own the encyclopedia set, not to mention that the set is expensive.
The 'black belt school' thing could be an indicator or it could simply be there because the guy down the street used it. It is not an uncommon slogan.
The big question would be whether or not there were fees for everything, special clubs, and a requirement to use gear purchased through the club exclusively, long contracts, and such. None of these alone marks it as a McDojo, but the more of them that appear at the same time at the same school, the more likely that it is a McDojo.
Now, it could be a McDojo with very good instruction, but that is another story.
Daniel
I will go one further, every school is a Mc Dojo in one way or another. Even though every school does not teach childern, they have certain amount of adult that just go though the motion while training. The thing is for any school to stay open one must have those individual that will pay the bills for the others to train. I mean for anybody to say everyone at so and so school is top notch is full of it, not ewen our military has 100% killer they have some fluff as well and since fluff means Mc Dojo we all have a little fast service in us.
Wo Fat
Purple Belt
I was. But it I had extensive training already, so I knew what to expect going in. It was mainly just for family activity and exercise. The "instructors" were young, but good guys and were clearly looking to build a business, rather than building martial artists.
Black belts were all but guaranteed if you purchased the "Master's Program" or whateva. The started with one store-front dojo, and within a few years had four schools. Overweight 13-year-old Black Belts were common (too many mcdojo fries).
It was fun, but it wasn't serious. And for me, it wasn't supposed to be.
Black belts were all but guaranteed if you purchased the "Master's Program" or whateva. The started with one store-front dojo, and within a few years had four schools. Overweight 13-year-old Black Belts were common (too many mcdojo fries).
It was fun, but it wasn't serious. And for me, it wasn't supposed to be.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
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Nope. Mine is not. I do not teach for profit so I can be selective with my students. More importantly, I can teach exactly what I want to teach and in the fashion I choose.
I have a rich, comprehensive curriculum precisely because there is no emphasis on gaining rank. You'll get it when you get it. It's not uncommon for someone to stay a white belt for a year in my school.
Would this fly if I wanted to run a commercial school? No. And that's precisely why I don't.
I see your perspective, Terry, but I must disagree.
Not every student of any subject will be top notch. It is impossible, but having students who mail it in week in and week out does not make the school a McDojo.
If those same students show up to test and can pass a legitimate test (not just a guaranteed promotion disguised as a test), then fine; promote them. But if they are obviously not able to pass the test and the school passes them along in order to collect the fee, well that is another story.
Daniel
TheStudent
Yellow Belt
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I think we can potentially define a McDojo with the following Criteria:
1. Emphasis on contracts
2. Frequent belt testing (monthly/bimonthly/quarterly) with fees
3. Gear must be purchased through school
4. BB Club or similar "express train" promoted heavily
5. Style changes based on current popular arts (XMA/MMA/etc.)
6. Poor quality of execution in high ranking students
7. Style was created by owner of school
8. Instructors in school lack visible skill
My thought is if any school has 4 or more of the symptoms (#8 is a requirement for McDojoness) then the school is a McDojo.
Many school are the sole or primary source of income for the instructor, so many symptoms may be driven by simple economics. Not one single symptom (except 8) automatically makes it a McDojo.
The key on flaky/business model vs. McDojo is if the instructor looks like Daniel LaRusso when he tries to execute the art he is teaching.
1. Emphasis on contracts
2. Frequent belt testing (monthly/bimonthly/quarterly) with fees
3. Gear must be purchased through school
4. BB Club or similar "express train" promoted heavily
5. Style changes based on current popular arts (XMA/MMA/etc.)
6. Poor quality of execution in high ranking students
7. Style was created by owner of school
8. Instructors in school lack visible skill
My thought is if any school has 4 or more of the symptoms (#8 is a requirement for McDojoness) then the school is a McDojo.
Many school are the sole or primary source of income for the instructor, so many symptoms may be driven by simple economics. Not one single symptom (except 8) automatically makes it a McDojo.
The key on flaky/business model vs. McDojo is if the instructor looks like Daniel LaRusso when he tries to execute the art he is teaching.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
If either of these clips seem familiar...then you probably have. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCjp3NUG2Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO6P8NmkJqc&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L6pwVRkNEU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCjp3NUG2Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO6P8NmkJqc&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L6pwVRkNEU&feature=related
Wo Fat
Purple Belt
Terry, I agree with everything you said AFTER "every school is a Mc Dojo". Yes, there are always going to be underachievers. There will always be those who want to train for the activity and the hobby. And yes, those students allow instructors to dedicate quality time to those students who want to learn and master their art.
IMO, what makes that same school a McDojo is not caring about whether there are serious martial arts students or whether their students can defend themselves in a combat situation, but being more concerned with the financial bottom line.
I understand that we school owners gotta pay the rent and utilities, and there's not a damm thing wrong with a sound marketing program. But when I know that a consumer wants to be fed, they're gonna get a nutritious martial arts meal from me at a McDonald's price.
