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Andrew Green said:
It is in some neighborhoods or around some moro... people.
Homosexuality and training
- Thread starter terryl965
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It is in some neighborhoods or around some moro... people.
This reminds me of a case law regarding a boy who is HIV positive and he wanted to study at a Japanese style martial arts school. I found it several months ago on FindLaw website and saved it to my harddrive. The recent comments made about the HIV issue and martial arts training reminded me of that case. Here it is for you to consider.
Mods: If you feel this case needs to be moved to The Study for further discussion, we can do that. It has more to do with HIV positive status and martial arts training and nothing to do with homosexuality, so it is not directly related to the original post.
- Ceicei
Mods: If you feel this case needs to be moved to The Study for further discussion, we can do that. It has more to do with HIV positive status and martial arts training and nothing to do with homosexuality, so it is not directly related to the original post.
- Ceicei
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Oh, and somthing I need to point out to the guys on here, despite teh fact it should be obvious...
Just cuz a guy is gay, doesn't mean he likes YOU.
Just cuz a guy is gay, doesn't mean he likes YOU.
DArnold
Purple Belt
Robert,
After looking at the posts it is still evedent that there are a lot of concerns, fears, and misinformation going around.
But after reading your post I have a question: Once the subject has been broached then is it prejudice to say you are "against gays", "don't believe in a gay life style", "think that a gay lifestyle is wrong"?
Try not to wander on this and stay on track - leave the blood tests and AIDs and the '...but' out.
I was raised in the "tolerance years" when you were just supposed to accept everyone for what they were.
I find it amuseing that in many conversations like these if you are against something then you are prejudice.
In my later years I realized that, not saying anything, is the same as saying something is "ok". Inaction is an action of acceptance.
There are many hot-button issues like these where many times tolerance is aproval. Honor Killings, Femal mutalation, forced child labor.... If you disagree with these ways of life are you prejudice? Should you be tolerant?
Martial Arts are a wonderful assistant to your Moral and Phylosophical compass for life. Not communicating, or ignoring issues does not help anyone.
I don't think anyone should ever apologise for what they believe is right or wrong. Now how you go about things is another story.
Can these issues be used in class. SURE. As an instructor I am responsible for my students and how they think. Kicking and punching is only 50% of the job. Just as this discussion shows you a lot about the people on this board. How many just jump in with the answer based on assumptions? How many just ask questions? How many go off on tangents. How many judge? How many have incredible logic? How many answer with just emotion?... These mental traits tell me how you will probably act outside class. (GEE your brain controlls your kicking and punching!) Also where I need to lead my students for growth (mentally).
However, issues like these must be kept on a strict leash or they soon become irrational and emotional and wander (with many ...but). Similar to Politics, Religion, Morals...
If you think that just showing up for a certian amount of time is the only measure of rank then that is why there are so many problems with higher ranks that are clueless.
Just a thought
And terryl965 it's good to read your stuff again! I've been off a while.
After looking at the posts it is still evedent that there are a lot of concerns, fears, and misinformation going around.
But after reading your post I have a question: Once the subject has been broached then is it prejudice to say you are "against gays", "don't believe in a gay life style", "think that a gay lifestyle is wrong"?
Try not to wander on this and stay on track - leave the blood tests and AIDs and the '...but' out.
I was raised in the "tolerance years" when you were just supposed to accept everyone for what they were.
I find it amuseing that in many conversations like these if you are against something then you are prejudice.
In my later years I realized that, not saying anything, is the same as saying something is "ok". Inaction is an action of acceptance.
There are many hot-button issues like these where many times tolerance is aproval. Honor Killings, Femal mutalation, forced child labor.... If you disagree with these ways of life are you prejudice? Should you be tolerant?
Martial Arts are a wonderful assistant to your Moral and Phylosophical compass for life. Not communicating, or ignoring issues does not help anyone.
I don't think anyone should ever apologise for what they believe is right or wrong. Now how you go about things is another story.
Can these issues be used in class. SURE. As an instructor I am responsible for my students and how they think. Kicking and punching is only 50% of the job. Just as this discussion shows you a lot about the people on this board. How many just jump in with the answer based on assumptions? How many just ask questions? How many go off on tangents. How many judge? How many have incredible logic? How many answer with just emotion?... These mental traits tell me how you will probably act outside class. (GEE your brain controlls your kicking and punching!) Also where I need to lead my students for growth (mentally).
However, issues like these must be kept on a strict leash or they soon become irrational and emotional and wander (with many ...but). Similar to Politics, Religion, Morals...
If you think that just showing up for a certian amount of time is the only measure of rank then that is why there are so many problems with higher ranks that are clueless.
Just a thought
And terryl965 it's good to read your stuff again! I've been off a while.
Robert Lee said:
DArnold
Purple Belt
Thanks for the lead,
I remember about a decade ago when this concern came up and I was training Referees across the US. We were working on our Policys on how we would handle someone bleading in the ring.
It was brought to our attention at the time that Texas had/or was trying to pass a law that any child in school who was bleading from an injury was to be removed from that event.
I never heard how Texas finally handled this.
The good question that came up was how would they ever play Football?
I remember about a decade ago when this concern came up and I was training Referees across the US. We were working on our Policys on how we would handle someone bleading in the ring.
It was brought to our attention at the time that Texas had/or was trying to pass a law that any child in school who was bleading from an injury was to be removed from that event.
I never heard how Texas finally handled this.
The good question that came up was how would they ever play Football?
Ceicei said:
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Again....how would you know?? If you suspect an individual and ask you could offend them and lose a student and then you'd probably feel like a fool for doing it..... probably..
Anyway, HIV does not discriminate. Heterosexuals have the disiese too and it's not necessarily caused due to a Homosexual act or illegal drug use either.
Here's something else to consider: IF the worlds greatest martial arts master just happened to be gay and everyone knew it...would you refuse to train under them? Why limit it to being gay? What if they were different than you in any other way that predjudiced your feelings toward them? Would you give up the opportunity to learn from them because they are different than you? I've seen people refuse to train or accept guidance from females or people younger than themselves as well. Their loss.
Anyway, HIV does not discriminate. Heterosexuals have the disiese too and it's not necessarily caused due to a Homosexual act or illegal drug use either.
Here's something else to consider: IF the worlds greatest martial arts master just happened to be gay and everyone knew it...would you refuse to train under them? Why limit it to being gay? What if they were different than you in any other way that predjudiced your feelings toward them? Would you give up the opportunity to learn from them because they are different than you? I've seen people refuse to train or accept guidance from females or people younger than themselves as well. Their loss.
hapki68
Orange Belt
I really didn't want to get back involved with this thread, because I plan to post another one about summer reading materials and I don't want to look like I can't shut up.
But here goes.
DArnold: Sorry I was vague on the "MA gay-related issues." I meant I'd like to ask questions like, "Have you felt comfortable coming out at your dojo? What was the reaction if you did? Do you know other gay guys who are into the MA? Do you think the MA attracts more or less gay-friendly practitioners than other sports, like baseball?" That sorta thing.
And would I want to compare notes about cute guys in class just as straight guys do about girls? -- absolutely. I never took a vow of celibacy when I signed up for hapkido.
No, I'm not HIV positive -- and that's no one's business. And why people are bleeding in a dojo and flinging the blood around is beyond me.
I disagree with the view that bigotry, ignorance (greed, malice, stealing, etc) are ok so long as people are up front about them. What kind of morality is that? If I had come home from school and told my dad that I used the "n" word but I did so honestly, he would've smacked me up one wall and down the other. He taught me that there SHOULD be a closet. The issue is knowing what to put in it.
He also taught me that we should try to better ourselves through life. That means we don't cling to views just because our grandparents had them 60 years ago. We learn as we go along, and we are obligated (at least in my family) to move the ball down the field. As my grandmother used to say to all of us, "I don't care where you're going in life, but it better be forward."
The vast majority of gay men and lesbians do not choose to be gay. (We went through the holocaust!!! Do you really think we'd endure an attempt at genocide because we're simply hot and bothered by washboard abs?) And being gay or lesbian does not impact society negatively in any proven way. We pay more than we get back through social services, we're law abiding, our children grow up to be no worse off than kids in hetero families, etc. Unlike the sins I named above which hurt individuals and society as a whole, objections to gays and lesbians are based on unproven religious beliefs and ignorance. That's why we should be out of the closet and goofy hate-filled views should be in it.
Ironically, some people think that to be tolerant, one must have no morals. Far from it. Tolerance means you know where to draw the line. Most gay men have prejudices like everyone else. We don't like everybody, nor do we agree with "anything goes" in society.
Most of us, however, understand that our prejudices have to be tempered with reason and compassion. So, we may have stereotypes about a particular group (and we do), but we try not to let them color our views about individuals or form the basis of our actions.
Hapki68
But here goes.
DArnold: Sorry I was vague on the "MA gay-related issues." I meant I'd like to ask questions like, "Have you felt comfortable coming out at your dojo? What was the reaction if you did? Do you know other gay guys who are into the MA? Do you think the MA attracts more or less gay-friendly practitioners than other sports, like baseball?" That sorta thing.
And would I want to compare notes about cute guys in class just as straight guys do about girls? -- absolutely. I never took a vow of celibacy when I signed up for hapkido.
No, I'm not HIV positive -- and that's no one's business. And why people are bleeding in a dojo and flinging the blood around is beyond me.
I disagree with the view that bigotry, ignorance (greed, malice, stealing, etc) are ok so long as people are up front about them. What kind of morality is that? If I had come home from school and told my dad that I used the "n" word but I did so honestly, he would've smacked me up one wall and down the other. He taught me that there SHOULD be a closet. The issue is knowing what to put in it.
He also taught me that we should try to better ourselves through life. That means we don't cling to views just because our grandparents had them 60 years ago. We learn as we go along, and we are obligated (at least in my family) to move the ball down the field. As my grandmother used to say to all of us, "I don't care where you're going in life, but it better be forward."
The vast majority of gay men and lesbians do not choose to be gay. (We went through the holocaust!!! Do you really think we'd endure an attempt at genocide because we're simply hot and bothered by washboard abs?) And being gay or lesbian does not impact society negatively in any proven way. We pay more than we get back through social services, we're law abiding, our children grow up to be no worse off than kids in hetero families, etc. Unlike the sins I named above which hurt individuals and society as a whole, objections to gays and lesbians are based on unproven religious beliefs and ignorance. That's why we should be out of the closet and goofy hate-filled views should be in it.
Ironically, some people think that to be tolerant, one must have no morals. Far from it. Tolerance means you know where to draw the line. Most gay men have prejudices like everyone else. We don't like everybody, nor do we agree with "anything goes" in society.
Most of us, however, understand that our prejudices have to be tempered with reason and compassion. So, we may have stereotypes about a particular group (and we do), but we try not to let them color our views about individuals or form the basis of our actions.
Hapki68
OP
- Thread Starter
- #70
Hapki68 that was one fine post
Terry
Terry
annie
Yellow Belt
Wow this is one topic I didn't expect to even come up here. I was raised by two women and would not change a single thing about it. We unfortunetly live in a society that frowns upon what they can't understand. Hell the best thing, i feel, for any gay individual would be martial arts. My mothers girlfriend could have used it, when 7 yrs ago was sitting on a bench on cape cod minding her business and 2 young guys came up said nothing and pummeled her! Seeing kids grow up tormented because of their sexuality, that they have no control over, is insane. I am suprised we don't see more homosexual people in the arts. I know what it was like growing up teased and beaten up just because who my mothers were. I vowed long ago I would not let that happen to my son when he grew up with many grandmothers. Fortunetly living on cape cod there is an acceptance in society for the gay community. I can't imagine any gay man or women flaunting thier sexuality in a class, if anything they are there to learn how to protect themselves from those who do not agree with thier lifestlye. even growing up surrounded by it, it took me many years to accept and understand, my moms for who they were. I don't hate anyone who is anti-gay, EVERYONE has their own beliefs and feelings. One of my closest friends cant even talk about my moms it bugs her out. OH Well
Live well, train hard....you only live once
Live well, train hard....you only live once
Robert Lee
Brown Belt
- Joined
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I took the time to humble my views to show I am trying to not let things get out of hand.. What I believe I am sure many many more believe. They just stay quit about it not to offend. Now as M/A goes. I spent my time learning what I know. 34 years training and instructing. Sex with a person other then man and woman Is a sin. That simple. No one can say its right. Liberal thinking is fine force that on some one its wrong. Yes out side the scool I still believ what I believe. I maintain that right same as anybody else. That is NOt hate Not agreeing or not likeing is not hate. If a person can not apploizige For hurting someones feelings Fine Its a two way street. There was no holicast for Gays. Far as I know it takes a gay person to make another gay person. Some say they were born gay, Was they It sounds better to tell that. Many states have laws on the books that say it is a crime for certion sexual acts. Making what most gays do illegal. So is that law wrong. it was made to maintain moral values.People have neighbors they know But disagree with there life style. Every body does not except or agree with a gay life style. So The gay people know this. And to try to label a person by a slandered name is to enforce there beliefs that its right. Isnt that what going here. It is not right The first people that thought it wasHid what they thought or done. Then liberal thoughts think its right to force that way on people who do not agree. Bigot, prejiduce,That refures to race not gay. But its bled over to bring attention to something wrong. Ask your preacher ,preist pastor. If the church you attend believes being gay is right in the eyes of the church and the lord. I do not teach hate I do not discuss Hate If your gay I do not want to know that. And sure do not want to use it asa topic in a class. Keep it to your self. As far as blood in the school We do do contact training There will be blood spilled at times. Even if you do not do contact. Things happen. Its M/A not danceing classes. Its about learning to Fight And learning not to have to fight. Its about learning to live in life. Not excepting what you know is not moral or right. But yet not condem And hope that people can change. People stop drug use daily. people stop stealing daily People change as they relize they should. People can stop being gay if they choose to do so. What do you think of a drug dealer or addict were they born that way. Is it something you want to be around is it something you will say its wrong But You do not care lets just except it and forget the laws and let them watch your children. People do not have to bend and except. I tried to aploizige and drop my feelings . No good on that. Push the buttons because being strainght and not believeing . well i guess that being prejiduce towards Straight non believers.DArnold said:Robert,
After looking at the posts it is still evedent that there are a lot of concerns, fears, and misinformation going around.
But after reading your post I have a question: Once the subject has been broached then is it prejudice to say you are "against gays", "don't believe in a gay life style", "think that a gay lifestyle is wrong"?
Try not to wander on this and stay on track - leave the blood tests and AIDs and the '...but' out.
I was raised in the "tolerance years" when you were just supposed to accept everyone for what they were.
I find it amuseing that in many conversations like these if you are against something then you are prejudice.
In my later years I realized that, not saying anything, is the same as saying something is "ok". Inaction is an action of acceptance.
There are many hot-button issues like these where many times tolerance is aproval. Honor Killings, Femal mutalation, forced child labor.... If you disagree with these ways of life are you prejudice? Should you be tolerant?
Martial Arts are a wonderful assistant to your Moral and Phylosophical compass for life. Not communicating, or ignoring issues does not help anyone.
I don't think anyone should ever apologise for what they believe is right or wrong. Now how you go about things is another story.
Can these issues be used in class. SURE. As an instructor I am responsible for my students and how they think. Kicking and punching is only 50% of the job. Just as this discussion shows you a lot about the people on this board. How many just jump in with the answer based on assumptions? How many just ask questions? How many go off on tangents. How many judge? How many have incredible logic? How many answer with just emotion?... These mental traits tell me how you will probably act outside class. (GEE your brain controlls your kicking and punching!) Also where I need to lead my students for growth (mentally).
However, issues like these must be kept on a strict leash or they soon become irrational and emotional and wander (with many ...but). Similar to Politics, Religion, Morals...
If you think that just showing up for a certian amount of time is the only measure of rank then that is why there are so many problems with higher ranks that are clueless.
Just a thought
And terryl965 it's good to read your stuff again! I've been off a while.
hapki68
Orange Belt
Annie,
Thanks so much for that very thoughtful and well written post. Sorry to hear about what happened to your mom on the bench. I hope she's ok.
I, too, have been surprised that more gays and lesbians don't take MA, at least out of a need for self defense. I suspect more of us are doing so... just closeted, out of respect for some straight (perceived or otherwise) sensibilities.
About 10 years ago, a friend of mine was hit in the head with a bat in DC by a few guys that drove in from rural Virginia. The attackers were held down a group of people until the cops arrived. As they were being led away by the police, the young men were shocked that they were actually being arrested, and one yelled, "But they're just fags!!!"
I'm sure these guys were raised to believe we're "child-molesting, disease-spreading, god-hating, family-destroyers." I think they thought they were simply hunting animals. Who would care?
Perhaps they should be applauded for being honest with their feelings.
My friend is fine today.
Where on Cape Cod? My partner (of 11 years) grew up in Centreville. The Cape is a terrific place.
Hapki68
Thanks so much for that very thoughtful and well written post. Sorry to hear about what happened to your mom on the bench. I hope she's ok.
I, too, have been surprised that more gays and lesbians don't take MA, at least out of a need for self defense. I suspect more of us are doing so... just closeted, out of respect for some straight (perceived or otherwise) sensibilities.
About 10 years ago, a friend of mine was hit in the head with a bat in DC by a few guys that drove in from rural Virginia. The attackers were held down a group of people until the cops arrived. As they were being led away by the police, the young men were shocked that they were actually being arrested, and one yelled, "But they're just fags!!!"
I'm sure these guys were raised to believe we're "child-molesting, disease-spreading, god-hating, family-destroyers." I think they thought they were simply hunting animals. Who would care?
Perhaps they should be applauded for being honest with their feelings.
My friend is fine today.
Where on Cape Cod? My partner (of 11 years) grew up in Centreville. The Cape is a terrific place.
Hapki68
This is a great thread but I think it has gotten off topic.
Topics of AIDS/HIV/RELIGION are off topic to what was asked.
I hope we have somewhat answered Terry's question.
Matter of fact let me go back and re-read it cause through all this I have forgotten it.
Topics of AIDS/HIV/RELIGION are off topic to what was asked.
I hope we have somewhat answered Terry's question.
Matter of fact let me go back and re-read it cause through all this I have forgotten it.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Robert Lee said:
Not gay myself but I got no problem saying homosexuality is right for whomever wants to practice it. It still suprises me to see people using religion as an excuse for facism, but hey, as long as you leave it at the Dojo doorstep I guess it ain`t a problem. Personally I think christians are misguided people and priests are potential child molesters but I leave those feelings at the door too.
bydand
Senior Master
upnorthkyosa said:
Dude, lets get real, as long as the dress and heels don't clash with the handbag it's OK. Other than that someone should take him aside and explain why Summers, shouldn't mix winter/fall colors. LOL, don't know why my mind ran down that road at all, but you are 100% correct! As long as they are there to train, train! If there to troll, there is the door. Same for anybody else regardless of orentation, pick up a date at the local watering hole, pick up MA's at the Dojo.
bydand
Senior Master
Technopunk said:
Hey, why not, I'm hot! LOL
MardiGras Bandit
Green Belt
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 100
- Reaction score
- 6
Damn, and I thought Robert was the biggest bigot on here. Then you go and compare homosexuality to murder, torture, and slavery. Congrats on raising the bar.DArnold said:
Honor killings, mutilation and child labor are all forms of coercion. They are morally reprehensible because they involve the use of violence or force on an unwilling victim. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice involving consenting individuals. No one is harmed by being gay. They are harmed by *******s who hate someone without reason and want to force their beliefs on someone else.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
MardiGras Bandit said:
I think this is one of the great misunderstandings about homosexuality. It really is not a choice. Homosexuals do not chose to be homosexual. There are homosexual, because that is who they are, plain and simple, like it or not. If you believe in God, well then, that is how God made them.
hapki68
Orange Belt
Amen, brother.
Homosexuality is a "lifestyle" and "choice" to the same degree heterosexuality is. For example, I can pleasure your wife in delicious ways she's only dreamed of but that doesn't make me straight.
Any warrior here willing to admit that he fantasizes about hot man on man love, but chooses not to act on it! Anyone?
Joking aside, this point is critical, because the "choice" bit provides an easy moral out for those that want to condemn gays and lesbians. If it's not a choice, it's harder for the bigots to explain and justify the mistreatment.
Homosexuality is a "lifestyle" and "choice" to the same degree heterosexuality is. For example, I can pleasure your wife in delicious ways she's only dreamed of but that doesn't make me straight.
Any warrior here willing to admit that he fantasizes about hot man on man love, but chooses not to act on it! Anyone?
Joking aside, this point is critical, because the "choice" bit provides an easy moral out for those that want to condemn gays and lesbians. If it's not a choice, it's harder for the bigots to explain and justify the mistreatment.
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