Master Vs. Instructors

[Sin]

I figured this would happen. I recived a bad repuatation point for speaking out about my views on "Master's", the person didn't even grant me the respect of giving me a comment on why they think I was wrong, or why it would deserve a bad rep point, for speaking respectfully about the subject. I challenge the person who gave me the bad rep point, respectfully, to delve into the subject of masters...Share your point of view...Martialtalk.com is for friendly discussion of the martial arts and other things, but the key is to be friendly, hence I ask the bad rep person, to come out and speak his/her mind...your opinions will not be judged we can agree to disagree...I ask those who think I was wronged to help me get my rep back...and send along the comment with the the rep point...

 

[terryl965]

Well Sin I understand about bad rep points I get the from time to time. I will only talk about me and my stituation only.

Up until December of 2004 I was a third degree Kukkiwon in TKD and a 5th in Okinawa karate, then at the request of some people I know, I went and recieved my 4th. To this day the only peopele that call me MASTER is the other Masters and Grand Masters because they have that right. At my school the call me Sabanim which means Head Instructor.

I hold the title so I can recive KUKkIWON certificates for my studens that want them. Titles are just a piece of paper, means nothing to me and hopefuly nothing to my students when they reach that point in there life.

RESPECT is all I need from the people I train I'm talking about skill respect here for most will never be able to respect someone life without knowig them outside the DOJANG.
TERRY

 

[Sin]

A tittle is very good achivement...but so is a trophy at a tourny...Rememmber it, but don't let it control you. A tittle shows your stature in the class, but dosn't make you better than the guy whos only had two classes...I am sure we both agree on that terryl...The people who aren't showing respect, are the ones who do not follow the rules of martial talk on this thread...Friendly discussion of the Martial Arts. Just because someone dosn't agree with you dosn't make them deserve a bad repuatation...This is the last you will hear me speak of this, and I apoligize for my ramblings...Its just one of those things that get under my skin....::bows::

 

[terryl965]

A tittle is very good achivement...but so is a trophy at a tourny...Rememmber it, but don't let it control you. A tittle shows your stature in the class, but dosn't make you better than the guy whos only had two classes...I am sure we both agree on that terryl...The people who aren't showing respect, are the ones who do not follow the rules of martial talk on this thread...Friendly discussion of the Martial Arts. Just because someone dosn't agree with you dosn't make them deserve a bad repuatation...This is the last you will hear me speak of this, and I apoligize for my ramblings...Its just one of those things that get under my skin....::bows::

Sin I have always tried to see both side to a story and I would agre with your statement for the most part. I'm sorry that you go dinged over your views.
I really enjoy most of your statements, keep posting and don't woory about those other people.
Terry

 

[Sin]

A great appresiation for all of you that gave me good rep points and the pat on the back for my posting. I am greatly honored that you all pulled through for me like that...We can let all those people that go aginst what MT stands for....We can tell them this...

"This is Martial Talk....and we Roll Deep."

Again thank you all for your support.

 

[arnisador]

"Any man who calls himself a "Master," probably isn't."

Yup. Anyone who introduces themselves as "Master" or insists that the title be used by those who are not his or her students, I immediately mark down in my mind.

 

[tshadowchaser]

ok 2 thoughts
1. this thread is not about rep points so stop discussing them here
2.

Anyone who introduces themselves as "Master" or insists that the title be used by those who are not his or her students, I immediately mark down in my mind.

I agree with that statement. If I meet someone and they tell me "I am master/soke/ GM Such and Such" I get the feeling they have a need to impress others. I cannot recall any of the true Masters/ GM's that i ever met that introduced themslefs that way.

 

[jdinca]

Yup. Anyone who introduces themselves as "Master" or insists that the title be used by those who are not his or her students, I immediately mark down in my mind.

I agree. But what if that person holds that title yet doesn't introduce himself/herself by that title? Do they still warrant being looked down upon just because they have earned the title Master, or Grand Master? Or because others call them by their title?

 

[Kacey]

To respond to several points in this discussion all at once:

I have a student who is active in his religion, and who has a problem with the title of "Master" for religious reasons, which I understand... but this same student refuses to call me (or my instructor, for that matter) by first name in non-MA social settings, out of respect. There are many ways of earning, and demonstrating, respect.

I also agree with the point that "Master" in an MA is, in some ways, equivalent to academically-earned titles - but I would tend to equate it more to "doctor" (as in Ph.D, not M.D.) than I would to "professor". My father is a college professor who holds 5 advanced degrees, including two master's degrees and a Ph.D., and prefers "mister" to "doctor" in deference to training and skill that medical doctors must complete and demonstrate - an opinion he has held since I was a child; I remember when I was about 8 or 9 (so 30 years ago) my father explaining why he expected my friends to call him "mister" rather than "doctor" (he earned his Ph.D. when I was 5), and that while he would allow his students to call him "doctor", he preferred "mister" or "professor" - for many of the same reasons listed about calling people "master". In my opinion, this causes him to deserve the title "doctor" more than those who insist on it because they have that piece of paper.

In addition, I am Jewish, and, while Jews consider G-d to be "Master of the Universe", the connotations are somewhat different than the Christian perspective involving Jesus Christ; also, "master" is a term used in Judaism to describe a person who has devoted his life to the study of Talmud (commentary on the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament) - and in Judaism, if you can, study Torah; if you can't, the next best thing is to study something else - in great detail.

In response to a discussion on this topic I participated in elsewhere, I looked up the definition of master, as follows (color added to emphasize parts of the definition that are, in my opinion, particularly relevant to this discussion):

from http://m-w.com/dictionary/master

Main Entry: 1mas·ter
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Old French maistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large -- more at [SIZE=-1]MUCH[/SIZE]
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) :: a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal

For myself, I differentiate between a, b, and c; when I refer to a martial artist as "master", I am interpreting it as 2c1 and 2c2, with emphasis on mastery and serving as a model or ideal. While the latter portion could also be religious, I am not intrepreting/applying the term "master" in that fashion, although I can see where others might do so.

By this same token, I have no problem using the term "master" for senior BB's who have devoted their lives to a martial art - remembering that in ITF TKD one must be a VII Dan to earn the title "master", which equates to over 30 years of experience. My instructor's instructor began TKD the same year I was born (1966), and I have absolutely NO problem demonstrating respect to him through the use of the title "master" - although I will also admit that my background gives me a different perspective than other people might have.

 

[terryl965]

Yup. Anyone who introduces themselves as "Master" or insists that the title be used by those who are not his or her students, I immediately mark down in my mind.

Well when people meet me they better not call me Master or I'll probably put them on there backside, My students do not use the terminology, they say Sabumnim which means Head Instructor. yes I'm Jewish also and my Master is GOD!!!!!
Terry

 

[DArnold]

Well when people meet me they better not call me Master or I'll probably put them on there backside, My students do not use the terminology, they say Sabanim which means Head Instructor. yes I'm Jewish also and my Master is GOD!!!!!
Terry

After you've been around long enough you will find many other quirks like these.

I will not mention who but I have had students with several other beliefs.

There is a large religous sect throughout the USA that will not wear an American patch on thier uniform because they belive their only allegance is to GOD and an allegance can not be professed to any country.

Another large religon will not bow, because in thier culture they belive you should only bow to GOD

I have been around others who think that being called Master is blasphemy.

And many of these conflict with the Asian beliefs based on Shinto.

But I must ask how putting someone on their backside would build understanding and support for your culture?

 

[terryl965]

After you've been around long enough you will find many other quirks like these.

I will not mention who but I have had students with several other beliefs.

There is a large religous sect throughout the USA that will not wear an American patch on thier uniform because they belive their only allegance is to GOD and an allegance can not be professed to any country.

Another large religon will not bow, because in thier culture they belive you should only bow to GOD

I have been around others who think that being called Master is blasphemy.

And many of these conflict with the Asian beliefs based on Shinto.

But I must ask how putting someone on their backside would build understanding and support for your culture?

I would not and the people who know me understand my comment, it was a inside joke my friend, to those that know me. Sorry if I confussed anybody or gave them the wrong ideal.
Terry

 

[DArnold]

I agree with you...now being called a master by tittle only, isn't such a big deal...but when someone is a self proclaimed master of Martial Arts because his school grossed the most money that year, then he/she defenitly isn't a master...masters are perfect in everyway...So if your hangs a foot over your belt then...you were in good shape at one time (or you should have been) or someone took pity on you...Being a master takes more than just knowing your stuff, you gotta be able to do it, and myself being harder on myself than any other person that I help instruct, I don't feel that I will ever consider myself a master, because I still make mistakes. Now when I get to my 50th anniversery of training, and someone wants to call me master, i won't mind someone giving me the tittle...But right now, i am a student, Dai Sempi to everyone at my school, which is the tittle I've been given. (means most senior student, our school still new)...i think were all students of the Martial Arts...Nothing more..tittles are another thing all together, but if you ask me, I wouldn't want to be called master even though I've earned the tittle...people then come to expect too much.

Sir,
I understand you have a bad tast in your mouth from one example but I don't belive all organizations are created equal and all masters fall under this example or your views.

I also find that many apply their student beliefs to being an instructor and set double standards within their schools. (If I am not being clear here I can go into this more)

The term Master from organization to organization means something different which is why many are confused, and I would tend to question some of your other beliefs.

You said, "Being a master takes more than just knowing your stuff, you gotta be able to do it"

Many people ascribe to the theory that rank is just about physical ablilty. I agree that at one point in your carrer you should have been able to do "it" but I know that as you get older many "its" are not possible.

Do you agree with this?

And if not, as people get older then should they be demoted in Rank?

"I don't feel that I will ever consider myself a master"

This is understandable, it is Humility and every good master says this.

"...because I still make mistakes"

I don't belive that there is a title in any profession in the world that means a person does not make mistakes. Somewhere, sometime, someone perpetuated this myth that Instructors, Masters... don't make mistakes. Isn't this just another level of humility?

"Now when I get to my 50th anniversery of training, and someone wants to call me master, i won't mind someone giving me the tittle."

With your beliefs and humility, do you really believe that?

"But right now, i am a student"

Do you feel that instructor or Master does not mean you are still a student? I never made any correlation between the two.

Most of the Masters I know/work with, understand all you have said and act thus. I have never seen one of them say anything when someone broached ettiquete. Their Humility was greater than that.

Your deep humility and high standards are exatly the qualitys I would expect from a master.

They, as you, understand the catch 22.

 

[DArnold]

I would not and the people who know me understand my comment, it was a inside joke my friend, to those that know me. Sorry if I confussed anybody or gave them the wrong ideal.
Terry

Terry,
Sorry
Slap me around, I'm too serious

 

[terryl965]

I would not and the people who know me understand my comment, it was a inside joke my friend, to those that know me. Sorry if I confussed anybody or gave them the wrong ideal.
Terry

Terry,
Sorry
Slap me around, I'm too serious

Nah it is ok we al have to get to know each other, I really enjoy all of your post so far. Maybe one day we can meet and train for a day or so. It would be my honor.
Terry

 

[arnisador]

But what if that person holds that title yet doesn't introduce himself/herself by that title? Do they still warrant being looked down upon just because they have earned the title Master, or Grand Master? Or because others call them by their title?

No, I have no problem there. If they introduce themselves and you notice others calling them by a title, that's fine. I'm not against titles--well, they are over-emphasized, I suppose--what I'm against is titles that have gone to a person's head.

 

[arnisador]

Another large religon will not bow, because in thier culture they belive you should only bow to GOD

Yup, there was a lawsuit about this; see this thread.

The word "master" is a loaded term. I don't see how anyone could reasonably take offense at someone's desire not to use it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have a big issue with the term master. In TSD, one is considered a "master" at 4th dan. Therefore, I've met "masters" in our art who were in their twenties...sometimes early twenties. This is too young and, IMO, it lacks humility. How can one be a master of anything at 24?

Further, I feel that the term master is loaded with ego. I think people use it to prop themselves up.

Good for you Terry, for going against the grain on this. My teacher did the same thing and I think it speaks volumes about character.

 

[Sin]

Sir,
I understand you have a bad tast in your mouth from one example but I don't belive all organizations are created equal and all masters fall under this example or your views.

I also find that many apply their student beliefs to being an instructor and set double standards within their schools. (If I am not being clear here I can go into this more)

The term Master from organization to organization means something different which is why many are confused, and I would tend to question some of your other beliefs.

You said, "Being a master takes more than just knowing your stuff, you gotta be able to do it"

Many people ascribe to the theory that rank is just about physical ablilty. I agree that at one point in your carrer you should have been able to do "it" but I know that as you get older many "its" are not possible.

Do you agree with this?

And if not, as people get older then should they be demoted in Rank?

"I don't feel that I will ever consider myself a master"

This is understandable, it is Humility and every good master says this.

"...because I still make mistakes"

I don't belive that there is a title in any profession in the world that means a person does not make mistakes. Somewhere, sometime, someone perpetuated this myth that Instructors, Masters... don't make mistakes. Isn't this just another level of humility?

"Now when I get to my 50th anniversery of training, and someone wants to call me master, i won't mind someone giving me the tittle."

With your beliefs and humility, do you really believe that?

"But right now, i am a student"

Do you feel that instructor or Master does not mean you are still a student? I never made any correlation between the two.

Most of the Masters I know/work with, understand all you have said and act thus. I have never seen one of them say anything when someone broached ettiquete. Their Humility was greater than that.

Your deep humility and high standards are exatly the qualitys I would expect from a master.

They, as you, understand the catch 22.

I agree with you for the most part...By physical ablity I mean to the best of ones ability...That being said, someone who is 80 and has been doing MA for many years, isn't gonna be able to do what a 19 year old can do, but this dosn't mean he lets himself go. Other Exercises are available, and dieting is there as well...Now if this "Older" Martial Artist has a beer belly that hangs out over a foot from his belt, then I do not consider this person a "master". One for there Gluttany(sp) and two for the poor example they are setting for the lower ranks. Martial Arts isn't just something to do, or something you only do for fun...It becomes a way of life...But only to the True martial artists, and if Martial Arts is not a way for life for someone with the title of master, then he/she dosn't Deserve the Title...

Thank you for your great attitude...I truely mean that...This has been a very good conversation.

 

[Gemini]

I'm surprised to see so many people caught up in this. In Korean teminology, Sabumnim = Master. The term is given to someone whom that art recognizes is learned in the art and capable of passing that knowledge along. A Master of the art. That's all. At no time was it ever meant to be a title implying that any one person is greater than another. If you're taking it that way, you're misunderstanding it's meaning. It's no different than a Journeyman is to a plummer. Further, it doesn't mean a person knows everything. We all continue to learn. Relax.