Master Vs. Instructors

[terryl965]

I'm surprised to see so many people caught up in this. In Korean teminology, Sabumnim = Master. The term is given to someone whom that art recognizes is learned in the art and capable of passing that knowledge along. A Master of the art. That's all. At no time was it ever meant to be a title implying that any one person is greater than another. If you're taking it that way, you're misunderstanding it's meaning. It's no different than a Journeyman is to a plummer. Further, it doesn't mean a person knows everything. We all continue to learn. Relax.

Gemini correct me if I'm wong but the word sabunim means head instructor not Master. If I'm wrong I stand coorected.
thanks
Terry

 

[DArnold]

Gemini correct me if I'm wong but the word sabunim means head instructor not Master. If I'm wrong I stand coorected.
thanks
Terry

Korean

nim - means honorable, as an example I would say terry-nim (or honarable terry) The Japanese use san

sabum - means instructor (sa meaning 4 as in sadan - 4th degree black belt)

sahyon - means master instructor

NOW here is where it gets interesting and the translation has, in most instances, been lost by us round eyes.

Our code is: sa-je-ji-do which was translated as Student/Instructor relationship.
These are the rules followed by both student and instructor.
The whole problem with calling someone Master starts to go away when you learn that the more literal translation of sa-je-ji-do is deciple/mentor.

More of someone who is following a path and someonone who is a trusted counselor.
Not a subject and a ruler

 

[Sin]

All in all, the main point I wish to get a across is that "IF" you are "Granted" the title of "Master". I pray that you do not let it go to your head. Rememmber your roots, and rememmber you were a beginner at one time. Rememmber how hard it was for you to do a side kick the first time, or even a shuffle jab. Rememmber your instructors, because you owe all of your achivements to them. Rememmber that NO ONE is perfect, and you are no acception to that rule. Always keep an open mind to new Ideas and influences, because we are all students of the Martial Arts, for now and forever more.

Regards,
Sin

 

[IcemanSK]

Its the darned English language. The idea of Master in English conjers all kind of things that are not in the Asian culture. And resistance to it (even among some of those who hold the rank) is because of that misunderstanding. Gemini has hit it on the head.

And just because someone is a "master" at a MA doesn't mean they aren't subject to the laws of gravity & don't trip over their own feet. Its like a woman graduating from medical school & practicing medical saying, "Just call me Lisa." It would be odd @ the hospital & to her patients. But not outside the those places...like her friends & family.

Are there folks who abuse their master satus? You bet! I can give a lot of name & addresses of these folks, too. They lord it over their students because they don't get the same respect at their day job as the manger of Burger King. If Terry has his students call him "Mr. Stoker", (rather than, master) there's nothing wrong w/ that. If he were a school teacher or baseball coach, we wouldn't blink. If he had a PhD, we wouldn't say, "He's full of himself" if his students called him Dr. Stoker, either. I've seen PhD's who out of false humility say, "Just call me Jim," also.

The rank doesn't make the person. But one hopes that the person can wear the rank well.

 

[DArnold]

Its the darned English language. The idea of Master in English conjers all kind of things that are not in the Asian culture. And resistance to it (even among some of those who hold the rank) is because of that misunderstanding. Gemini has hit it on the head.

And just because someone is a "master" at a MA doesn't mean they aren't subject to the laws of gravity & don't trip over their own feet. Its like a woman graduating from medical school & practicing medical saying, "Just call me Lisa." It would be odd @ the hospital & to her patients. But not outside the those places...like her friends & family.

Are there folks who abuse their master satus? You bet! I can give a lot of name & addresses of these folks, too. They lord it over their students because they don't get the same respect at their day job as the manger of Burger King. If Terry has his students call him "Mr. Stoker", (rather than, master) there's nothing wrong w/ that. If he were a school teacher or baseball coach, we wouldn't blink. If he had a PhD, we wouldn't say, "He's full of himself" if his students called him Dr. Stoker, either. I've seen PhD's who out of false humility say, "Just call me Jim," also.

The rank doesn't make the person. But one hopes that the person can wear the rank well.

I remember the first time I found out that they still put their pants on one leg at a time. Boy did the gold melt off my idol
Great posting!
Master only relates to the knowledge in the art, not other things.

 

[terryl965]

That is funny every Master I know has somebody helping them with there pants :whip:

:uhyeah:
Terry

 

[TigerWoman]

Well, anybody who knows me, knows my master insists on calling him master. In fact got read out on that on a email so I just call him Sir. or refer to him as Master --- to others. Now I will have to choke on saying Kwan Jang Nim ke kyung ye when we bow. I have limited respect for my instructor as he lost mine and hasn't regained it. Right now we have a truce.

I read somewhere that title was only given to higher rank say 7th, I'm not sure if I remember right. But then later I read that a school owner can also take that title "Kwan Jang". So, Terry wouldn't you also be a Kwan Jang? In our school, the second dans up and whoever is teaching the class, even a recommended black belt is called a Sa Bum for bowing beginning and end of class. So theoretically, I could go to a women's class taught by a 1st dan and have to bow to her as a Sa Bum while I am one higher and also an instructor. No big deal but seems out of whack. Though since she is in control of the class this is probably why. TW

 

[terryl965]

Kwan Jang is Grand Master not me, I'm just Sabanim because I choice to be, a Susanim is a second in charge just under Sabanim.
I call people what they wish, but just because I call you Master does not mean I respect you as Master, big difference between giving some one there title and giving some one the respect for there title.

I hope when all said and done in my life time they put this on my grave stone: He was respected by his peers and understood by his students.

Thank
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Kacey]

Kwan Jang is Grand Master not me, I'm just Sabanim because I choice to be, a Susanim is a second in charge just under Sabanim.
I call people what they wish, but just because I call you Master does not mean I respect you as Master, big difference between giving some one there title and giving some one the respect for there title.

I hope when all said and done in my life time they put this on my grave stone: He was respected by his peers and understood by his students.

Thank
Terry Lee Stoker

And this is, I think, the key - the people who are most deserving of being called "master" (or any other titled intended to demonstrate respect) are those earn it through their actions, make no fuss about it, rather than those who tie their egos into it and become offended when others do not accord them that respectful title. Respect can only be earned, not ordered - the outward FORMS of respect can be ordered, but never the actual experience of respecting someone.

Because the majority of senior martial artists are male, I am constantly being called "sir" by people (even, occasionally, my own students... sigh... although they do err the other way and call my instructor "ma'am", so I guess that evens out) - but the fact remains that people who do so are giving me a title that denotes respect, and I take it in the fashion it is offered, rather than being offended by the gender error. After all, I've been called WAY worse things than "sir"!

 

[arnisador]

I study with a Kali instructor who calls all his students sir/ma'am and Mr./Ms. (even my 15 year old son). I usually address him the same way. This style works for him. It certainly communicates great respect for his students.

I study with aJKD instructor who calls his students by their first names. He has them call him by his first name. This style works for him. It certainly communicates that his students are equally valuable as he.

A lot of ways can work.

 

[FearlessFreep]

The subject of names came up on "The Dojang" mail list (Korean Martial Arts list) and some people who actually knew Korean pointed out that technically "Kwa Ja Nim" (or however you spell it) really just means "School Owner" or even "Gym Owner", without technically a regard to rank or position within a martial art.

So you can use the term and attach as much or as little respect and significance as you want to it

 

[jdinca]

No, I have no problem there. If they introduce themselves and you notice others calling them by a title, that's fine. I'm not against titles--well, they are over-emphasized, I suppose--what I'm against is titles that have gone to a person's head.

That's pretty much what I expected. I kind of threw that out there because it appears there are those that consider the titles, no matter how they were arrived at, as a negative.