Homosexuality and training

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terryl965

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In another post a member mention about being gay and if the training is any difference, well I have been training a gay guy for over a year and until today I had no ideal he was. Does this change our regular workout no, he is a tremendous addition to our school and is loved by all, he puts more time in training and has earned respect from me over the last year, weather or not he is or is not he has become a fine individual and a valiant student. He helps with the under belts and give so much back to the school that I could never return. I believe Martial Arts is a way for every single person to have a common ground and I personally hope he stays for a long time.
Terry
 

Grenadier

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While I frown upon homosexuality, as long as someone doesn't let it interfere with dojo operations, then it's no concern of mine what someone does outside of the dojo. As long as the said individual is there for the training, then they're no different than any other student.

It's simple common sense; you keep controversial items about yourself to yourself, and don't go boldly announcing them to create a distraction. If the said individual tried to disrupt class by announcing such a thing, then I would simply tell him that it has absolutely no place in the dojo, since everyone is here to train, and nothing more.

If the said individual starts harassing other dojo members of the same sex, then it's the same thing as if someone tried to use the dojo as a dating scene with a member of the opposite sex: it has no place in the dojo, and they'd better keep it out. Failure to keep such things out means that they shouldn't be in there.
 

Andrew Green

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Grenadier said:
you keep controversial items about yourself to yourself,

I dunno, maybe it shouldn't be controversial? Not terribly long ago, and in some cultures still a lot of things we don't blink a eye at are controversial.

"Women Workin?!?! How dare they!"

Nothing to be ashamed of, it's just who some people are. And they shouldn't feel the need to hide it.
 

shesulsa

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Grenadier said:
While I frown upon homosexuality, as long as someone doesn't let it interfere with dojo operations, then it's no concern of mine what someone does outside of the dojo.

May I ask how just being a homosexuality interferes with dojo operations, in your opinion?

Grenadier said:
It's simple common sense; you keep controversial items about yourself to yourself, and don't go boldly announcing them to create a distraction. If the said individual tried to disrupt class by announcing such a thing, then I would simply tell him that it has absolutely no place in the dojo, since everyone is here to train, and nothing more.

What other subjects do you think are "controversial" such that they might disrupt a class?

Grenadier said:
If the said individual starts harassing other dojo members of the same sex, then it's the same thing as if someone tried to use the dojo as a dating scene with a member of the opposite sex: it has no place in the dojo, and they'd better keep it out. Failure to keep such things out means that they shouldn't be in there.

Please define what constitutes harrassment in your dojo. I know that law states it is how the offending statement and/or action is perceived by the recipient which defines harassment, however some people feel harrassed just being in the presence of an outed homosexual. This cannot be blamed on the homosexual in my opinion.
 

Brother John

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"Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should never be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.

period



Your Brother
John
 

Makalakumu

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Brother John said:
"Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should never be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.

period



Your Brother
John

:asian:

No matter what your opinion regarding the morality of this issue, this is an important point.

This sort of thing, "should" be a non-issue.
 

Grenadier

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shesulsa said:
May I ask how just being a homosexuality interferes with dojo operations, in your opinion?

If someone starts discussing about his dating life in the dojo, then it does become a problem, regardless of orientation. People are there to train, not to socialize about other issues.

shesulsa said:
What other subjects do you think are "controversial" such that they might disrupt a class?

Basically anything that does not pertain to the dojo and the martial arts. If someone tries to use the dojo to push religion, politics, unrelated sciences, etc., while they are in the dojo, they shouldn't do it. They should at least have the courtesy to leave such discussions at the door, and wait until after leaving the dojo to do such things.

I don't care if someone is a respected reverend for a good church. If he trains at a dojo, he should not try to preach there.

sheslusa said:
Please define what constitutes harrassment in your dojo. I know that law states it is how the offending statement and/or action is perceived by the recipient which defines harassment, however some people feel harrassed just being in the presence of an outed homosexual. This cannot be blamed on the homosexual in my opinion.

This has nothing to do with one's sexual preference. Discussion of such things in a dojo should not take place, and if someone has to say "no" to a suitor (regardless of gender) on a repeated basis, then that's certainly harassment. If someone says "absolutely not, and don't ever bother me again" and the individual tries to propose again, then it is harassment.

Homosexuals should not be given any more leeway than heterosexuals, and vice versa.

I don't care what their preferences are; it's a dojo, not a single's bar.

Now, if someone feels harassed merely in the presence of a suspected or known homosexual, then I'll simply say this: "Get over it." There are more important things to worry about (such as training), than who is gay and who isn't in a dojo.


Andrew Green said:
I dunno, maybe it shouldn't be controversial? Not terribly long ago, and in some cultures still a lot of things we don't blink a eye at are controversial.

Someone's dating and / or sex life will always be a controversial topic, regardless of orientation, simply because it has no place in the dojo. People are there to train, not to socialize.

I have always maintained the position, that it's none of my concern what people do outside of the dojo, as long as they keep it outside of the dojo, and don't bring their baggage into it. Even though I may not agree with what they do, they have their God-given free will to decide what to do with their lives.
 

bushi jon

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i do not care if they are gay as long as they arnt hittn on me or my students. second worse *** whooping i have ever taken has been by a gay guy at a match. third nothing should be talked about during my class time but self def or martial arts stuff. does it happen yes do i like it heck i start it some days.
 

Makalakumu

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I don't care if a guy shows up in heels and a dress. When he comes out of the locker room with a gi on, he better be ready to sweat and kick some ***!
 

matt.m

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You know the only two things that are important in class are the following:
Is the person considerate to the other trainer(s)/trainee(s)
Are they ready to / do they work hard

That is it period.
 

Andrew Green

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Brother John said:
"Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should never be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.

period

Yup, and neither should gender. Sadly a read through the womens section here shows that just because something shouldn't be an issue, that doesn't mean it never is...
 

Stan

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Grenadier said:
If someone starts discussing about his dating life in the dojo, then it does become a problem, regardless of orientation. People are there to train, not to socialize about other issues.



Basically anything that does not pertain to the dojo and the martial arts. If someone tries to use the dojo to push religion, politics, unrelated sciences, etc., while they are in the dojo, they shouldn't do it. They should at least have the courtesy to leave such discussions at the door, and wait until after leaving the dojo to do such things.

I don't care if someone is a respected reverend for a good church. If he trains at a dojo, he should not try to preach there.


Here we go again with the slanderous and oft-repeated myth of the sex-crazed gay "conversion" agenda. No, of course a person going on about the joys of homosexuality, sexually harassing or coming on to other students would be ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. The problem is assuming that a gay person is more likely to do this than a straight person. Just like with any marginalized group, there probably are a very small number of homosexuals who pursue a misguided, radical "gay agenda". However, most do not, and simply want to go about their daily business, neither imposing on anyone else, nor hiding or lying about who they are.

When it is said that discussions about personal life have NO PLACE in the dojo, does that mean that students never stand around after class and mention, "My wife and I are going on a road trip this weekend," or "I have to get home. My girlfriend hasn't been feeling well"? I assume that people who share a dojo would be friendly with each other. While of course no one should be allowed to sexually harrass or promote a political agenda, to say that a homosexual student has to OMIT large portions of his or her personal life, or worse yet, LIE, and claim to be straight, when such casual personal conversations happen, is by all means a discriminatory double standard.

How would you feel having to constantly refer to your spouse or significant other as "roomate" or "friend", and then being accused of pushing an agenda if you slipped up and mentioned the person who was so important in your life?
 

CuongNhuka

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And besides, who cares if he's gay. Who your turned on to shouldn't matter. Neither should sex, race, creed, or anything else. The only things that show the beleifs of your heart are your actions. And those are the only things people should be judged by. Everything else is irrelevant.

Good training,
John
 

MartialIntent

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Grenadier said:
Someone's dating and / or sex life will always be a controversial topic, regardless of orientation, simply because it has no place in the dojo. People are there to train, not to socialize.
Respectfully, is that really your view or are you using that point to leverage the notion of being unbiased? I mean, I understand what you're saying, honestly I do, but all I can think is that your gaff sounds rather authoritarian. Surely it's not really like this in your practice hall, is it? ... "You're here to train and not talk or laugh, or mention sports, movies, politics, religion..." etc. I don't think I could train for long under those conditions. For me training is about having a laugh, cracking a joke and communicating and that doesn't preclude a high workrate and disciplined effort, it's just the striking of a balance. Personally I get enough of the Pol Pot attitude at work.

Just my opinion.

Respects!
 

chinto01

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Race, creed, color, or sexual orientation should not be a concern when training someone, or training with someone. As long as they have a good heart, are willing to learn or teach, and are serious then what is the problem?
If we begin to discriminate against one group that will turn to another, then another, then another, and pretty soon we will all be working out with nobody but ourselves. As martial artists we claim to follow the code of bushido. That code basically states that we need to hold ourselves to higher standards than most of society. We need to set the example for people to follow. If we begin to discriminate groups of people we will never further our arts or ourselves.

In the spirit of BUSHIDO!

Rob
 

Andrew Green

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chinto01 said:
Race, creed, color, or sexual orientation should not be a concern when training someone,

So... can I keep my polict about not training short green men with lumpy heads and giant floppy ears? :D
 

MardiGras Bandit

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Back at college I trained BJJ with a gay guy. His lifestyle was never an issue, and BJJ is the most sexual martial art I have ever seen. He never hit on anyone, mentioned he was gay, dry humped me (more then the usual grinding involved) or anything akward. He was just another guy. A persons life outside of martial arts has nothing to do with training.
 

Grenadier

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The problem is assuming that a gay person is more likely to do this than a straight person. Just like with any marginalized group, there probably are a very small number of homosexuals who pursue a misguided, radical "gay agenda". However, most do not, and simply want to go about their daily business, neither imposing on anyone else, nor hiding or lying about who they are.


You missed the point where I said that if they keep things to themselves, then it's their business, and their business alone. You check your personal issues at the door, plain and simple. I don't care if someone is gay or straight; you don't bring your dating life into the dojo.

I will repeat this once more for you, since you seem to have selectively ignored my previous statements:

You are at a dojo to train. Check your (non-gear) baggage at the door.

When it is said that discussions about personal life have NO PLACE in the dojo, does that mean that students never stand around after class and mention, "My wife and I are going on a road trip this weekend," or "I have to get home. My girlfriend hasn't been feeling well"? I assume that people who share a dojo would be friendly with each other.

You statement isn't very logical. If someone has to leave the dojo or can't make it to class, then their reasons are relevant to the training, since they obviously can't be there. I'm not going to pry any deeper.

While of course no one should be allowed to sexually harrass or promote a political agenda,

Then we are in agreement.

to say that a homosexual student has to OMIT large portions of his or her personal life, or worse yet, LIE, and claim to be straight, when such casual personal conversations happen, is by all means a discriminatory double standard.

What someone does at home is their business, and their business alone. I don't care, as long as they don't try to push their non-martial arts agenda. By leaving one's personal life out of the dojo, he doesn't have to deal with such things.

martialintent said:
Respectfully, is that really your view or are you using that point to leverage the notion of being unbiased?

It is, and always will be my view. In the 1990's, I've seen two dojos get torn apart when people started letting their personal lives interfere with operations, and there aren't many things in this world that hurt more than seeing your school go through the turmoils, regardless of whether you are a student or instructor.

Does this sound like a "sterile environment?" Yes, since the survival of the school as a whole, is important enough to justify it. Does this mean that classes are always 100% rigid, hard-nosed sessions? Of course not. If you can manage to interject a piece of relevant humor, it can provide a welcome break from the action without ruining the continuity of the class.

However, there's a difference between cracking a joke / making a light hearted remark during a class, and bringing in matters that aren't conducive to the training.
 

chinto01

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Andrew Green said:
So... can I keep my polict about not training short green men with lumpy heads and giant floppy ears? :D

As long as you do not get them wet so that they multiply yes.:roflmao: :roflmao:

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob
 
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