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simplicity

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(With respect, man!)

First ?) Getting off your azz and going to them... Spending your time & dime.... There is no other way!

Second ?) I'll let BL explain: Organized Despair (Tao of Jeet Kune Do page 14)

In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patterns of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a “pointer of the way” echoes.

Each man belongs to a style which claims to possess truth to the exclusion of all other styles. These styles become institutes with their explanations of the “Way,” dissecting and isolating the harmony of firmness and gentleness, establishing rhythmic forms as the particular state of their techniques.

Instead of facing combat in its suchness, then, most systems of martial art accumulate a “fancy mess” that distorts and cramps their practitioners and distracts them from the actual reality of combat, which is simple and direct. Instead of going immediately to the heart of things, flowery forms (organized despair) and artificial techniques are ritualistically practiced to simulate actual combat. Thus, instead of “being” in combat these practitioners are “doing” something “about” combat.

Worse still, super mental power and spiritual this and spiritual that are desperately incorporated until these practitioners drift further and further into mystery and abstraction. All such things are futile attempts to arrest and fix the ever-changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse.

When you get down to it, real combat is not fixed and is very much “alive.” The fancy mess (a form of paralysis) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.

When real feeling occurs, such as anger or fear, can the stylist express himself with the classical method, or is he merely listening to his own screams and yells? Is he a living, expressive human being or merely a patternized mechanical robot? Is he an entity capable of flowing with external circumstances, or is he resisting with his set of chosen patterns? Is his chosen pattern forming a screen between him and the opponent and preventing a “total” and “fresh” relationship?
 

Daniel Sullivan

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(With respect, man!)

First ?) Getting off your azz and going to them... Spending your time & dime.... There is no other way!
With respect, that isn't distance learning. That's traveling and learning in person. Distance learning, also called correspondence courses, refers to the teaching of students who are not physically present. If Bruce Lee used the term for traveling, that's fine, though that is not correct usage of the term.

Second ?) I'll let BL explain: Organized Despair (Tao of Jeet Kune Do page 14)

In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike. This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patterns of styles. Consequently, to find a refreshing, original, master teacher is a rarity. The need for a “pointer of the way” echoes.

Each man belongs to a style which claims to possess truth to the exclusion of all other styles. These styles become institutes with their explanations of the “Way,” dissecting and isolating the harmony of firmness and gentleness, establishing rhythmic forms as the particular state of their techniques.

Instead of facing combat in its suchness, then, most systems of martial art accumulate a “fancy mess” that distorts and cramps their practitioners and distracts them from the actual reality of combat, which is simple and direct. Instead of going immediately to the heart of things, flowery forms (organized despair) and artificial techniques are ritualistically practiced to simulate actual combat. Thus, instead of “being” in combat these practitioners are “doing” something “about” combat.

Worse still, super mental power and spiritual this and spiritual that are desperately incorporated until these practitioners drift further and further into mystery and abstraction. All such things are futile attempts to arrest and fix the ever-changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse.

When you get down to it, real combat is not fixed and is very much “alive.” The fancy mess (a form of paralysis) solidifies and conditions what was once fluid, and when you look at it realistically, it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.

When real feeling occurs, such as anger or fear, can the stylist express himself with the classical method, or is he merely listening to his own screams and yells? Is he a living, expressive human being or merely a patternized mechanical robot? Is he an entity capable of flowing with external circumstances, or is he resisting with his set of chosen patterns? Is his chosen pattern forming a screen between him and the opponent and preventing a “total” and “fresh” relationship?
Thank you for clarifying. :)
 

Xue Sheng

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I'm a 2nd Generation Jeet Kune Do Full Instructor, been running a school for almost two decades... I had to train with BLS in person to achieve this.... I don't believe in this "online training BS" nor "organized despair"... In person is the only way to transfer neuro response energy, as I always say... Not everyone does this today and it shows in the students... BL was very much into distance learning, but in person... Not through "organized despair" and he also said to BLS to keep the quality high & the quantity low... Something to think about! :)

Based on the current definition of distance learning, meaning video training or online training with little of no physical interaction with the teacher.... not this definion


(With respect, man!)

First ?) Getting off your azz and going to them... Spending your time & dime.... There is no other way!

I still say I doubt Bruce Lee would agree with distance learning.

The above is not distance learning by todays standards, the above is traveling a distance to train, and I've done that :D

Ironically the closest person I ever trained with was a 2nd generation JKD student but sadly my knees did not allow me to continue and he moved away before I could get back
 

simplicity

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Distance learning in MA is what I'm talking about here, which isn't the same thing... Be able to train with someone that is far away from where you live and not being able to always train with them in person all the time, but still physically being able to see them for correction once in a while.... But Ok, you win the semantics! (o_0)
 

simplicity

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Sorry guys, but BL did do this what I'm talking about... He diid it with Taky Kimura in Seattle, WA and with James Lee in Oakland, CA to name a few....
 

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I think Bruce Lee would accept it if it worked and discard it if it didn't... Seems the way he handled everything else.
 

pgsmith

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It's devil's advocate time!

First, why should I care what Bruce Lee did? He was a gifted Chinese martial artist who made movies, and I am not. What he did or did not do has no affect on my training and I really don't care what did or didn't work for him.

Second, if people wish to say that they can learn martial arts on line, I really don't care as what they do has no affect on my training. Unless they fraudulently claim rank in a specific system, they can pretend they're learning all they want. It's got to be better for them than sitting on the couch watching reality TV.

How can anything be good or bad for martial arts as a whole? Martial arts encompasses a great many different things from a large number of societies. It would be impossible to have anything that could affect "martial arts as a whole". I just do what I do as my instructor tells me, and pretty much ignore what others wish to do with themselves.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Distance learning in MA is what I'm talking about here, which isn't the same thing... Be able to train with someone that is far away from where you live and not being able to always train with them in person all the time, but still physically being able to see them for correction once in a while.... But Ok, you win the semantics! (o_0)
Distance learning is distance learning, whether it is in MA or in anything else.

This isn't a question of trying to beat you in semantics; we're communicating in a text format, so knowing what meaning we're each putting into a term is necessary in order for us to communciate. When a meaning is described with a word that has a different accepted meaning, it creates confusion. Anyway, you explained what you meant, so conversation can proceed apace. :)

Sorry guys, but BL did do this what I'm talking about... He diid it with Taky Kimura in Seattle, WA and with James Lee in Oakland, CA to name a few....
Nobody was questioning whether or not he did.
 

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I run a DLP. I am willing to have a discussion about our success rate. By success I mean that the distance student was able to demonstrate the material when they finally met an instructor in person.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I run a DLP. I am willing to have a discussion about our success rate. By success I mean that the distance student was able to demonstrate the material when they finally met an instructor in person.
You teach students in person as well as I recall. How do they compare with similar training periods at similar rank?
 

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As always it's an extremely subjective question Mr. Sullivan. Some local people are slow learners and some dlp guys are already black belts in a syle or two and learn quite fast.

However apples to apples I have two students one local with no prior training and one dlp with no prior training. Both seem like pretty bright guys and are roughly the same age. My local guy is about two belt levels ahead of the distance guy, but that being said, they ARE both learning. I will be meeting the dlp student for the first time in person November 2nd and will evaluate him then and can give you better information.

Most of the guys with prior training have little or no difficulty learning from OUR dlp, but ours is pretty comprehensive with live skype type training happening routinely. The people with no training at all are by far the most challenging to teach. I have to put in much, much, more face time with them in our digital dojang. Say four hours to one ratio.
 

simplicity

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Some people that train on location tend not to be as serious, as distance learning students... Not with all, but with some...
 

Daniel Sullivan

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As always it's an extremely subjective question Mr. Sullivan. Some local people are slow learners and some dlp guys are already black belts in a syle or two and learn quite fast.

However apples to apples I have two students one local with no prior training and one dlp with no prior training. Both seem like pretty bright guys and are roughly the same age. My local guy is about two belt levels ahead of the distance guy, but that being said, they ARE both learning. I will be meeting the dlp student for the first time in person November 2nd and will evaluate him then and can give you better information.

Most of the guys with prior training have little or no difficulty learning from OUR dlp, but ours is pretty comprehensive with live skype type training happening routinely. The people with no training at all are by far the most challenging to teach. I have to put in much, much, more face time with them in our digital dojang. Say four hours to one ratio.
I think that prior relevant training makes a huge difference. Knowing what you're looking at and knowing what is being described go a very long way if you're learning without a physical instructor.

From what you're saying, DLP yields (for you and your students) comparable results but at a slower pace. Would that be accurate?
 

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Yes I think that is extremely accurate. I also would like to stress to those out there, if you can find a good local school it is superior to distance learning in most respects. We provide this service to those that simply have no better avenue to learn. If I count my time I operate at a serious economic loss to do this. However if I count my time as donated we break even.

DLP's are not all equal. The best systems have a feedback mechanism like our digital dojang. Without a feedback mechanism it's not going to work. Even with a feedback mechanism mileage may vary depending on the student. We find though that we are effective when the student puts forth the effort.
 
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Grenadier

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We are living in a digital age, and this is starting to become seen as more of an option in recent times. Why go to a dojo if you can be certified online, or why pay to train if you can learn through videos? It seems that Bruce Lee's theories are starting to be put into effect. People can now effortlessly sift through thousands of techniques and choose the ones that work best. I'm sure Bruce Lee would be happy

Unless you are a phenomenally talented person with a lot of actual martial arts experience, distance learning isn't going to work well at all. In fact, the only real benefit of training via video is to brush up or refine a few small details on something with which you already have great familiarity.

To put it bluntly, I'm going to borrow Bob's famous line here.

You are not Bruce Lee.

Or would he? Was his advice meant only for experienced martial artists, or everyone including the average Joe?

Even experienced martial artists aren't going to be able to learn a significant amount of things from a video. A video doesn't give you feedback, nor can it make corrections on the fly when you're doing something terribly wrong.

Let's look at this example:

Someone who has never done Shotokan Karate tries to learn the kata Kanku Dai from an online video. Even the better ones, done in slow motion (such as Kanazawa's), are going to be confusing, since there are many things that do not show up very easily on those videos. While the person trying to learn from the video may be able to figure out roughly what the sequence is, he will not be able to do it correctly, since he doesn't have the experience, nor the muscle memory, etc. The kata is going to look terrible.

Now, let's take someone else, for example a black belt in Shotokan Karate who already has a good amount of experience with that same kata. He's not looking to learn a sequence from scratch, and he already has a good foundation on what the proper fundamental techniques are. He may be able to gain a few pointers from the video, such timing of specific movements he's already familiar with, or maybe some finer details, such as weight distribution of a stance, etc. In that case, he may be able to gain something by watching that video.

Do you think that online training, home made warriors, and black belts earned online will begin to rise in popularity over the years? After all, Mcdojos still flourish :barf:

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

Those who got their black belts online are going to be teaching garbage, and generally aren't going to have much of a sense of how to run a school.

Regarding the "McDojo" term, while some schools use a lot of commercial practices that go for maximum profits, does this necessarily indicate that they're a garbage school?

And have you ever met anyone that falls into these categories?

Have I met those who claim to be black belts, yet are not? Of course. There are quite a few of them out there, indeed.

And is this good, bad, or neutral for martial arts as a whole?

They're pretty much a non-factor, unless they can attract a decent sized following. Usually people who lack experience, and try to claim that they have it, and actually try to operate a school, will end up falling flat on their faces.
 

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With respect, that isn't distance learning. That's traveling and learning in person. Distance learning, also called correspondence courses, refers to the teaching of students who are not physically present. If Bruce Lee used the term for traveling, that's fine, though that is not correct usage of the term.


Thank you for clarifying. :)

I'm not sure I agree with you. Your definition would be more accurately called video training or home study course. It can be called distance learning but distance training was being done by Dan Inosanto (and others) with his seminar students long before the 1st video BB home study course came about. They did eventually start selling the VHS tapes to "fill in the gaps" between training sessions.

So video training can and is called distant learning but distant learning is "more" than just video training.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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DLP's are not all equal. The best systems have a feedback mechanism like our digital dojang. Without a feedback mechanism it's not going to work. Even with a feedback mechanism mileage may vary depending on the student. We find though that we are effective when the student puts forth the effort.
I think that the student's learning style probably has an effect on how well it works as well. In person, I can accomodate different learning styles more effectively. That cannot be done in an online or video format. Kinesthetic learners will benefit the least in a video/online format and visual learners will benefit the most.

As for the viability of online/video training, I think striking arts are probably translate the best while grappling arts are problematic. Hapkido I see as being somewhere in the middle, as it is a hybrid art, though again, a visual learner will benefit the most. I think that if the landscape of brick and mortar schools continues as it is, you will see more people willing to give an online/video format a chance, particularly if they have prior training.
 

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Unless you are a phenomenally talented person with a lot of actual martial arts experience, distance learning isn't going to work well at all. In fact, the only real benefit of training via video is to brush up or refine a few small details on something with which you already have great familiarity.

While we have a few "phenomenal people" with a lot of actual martial arts experience. We mostly have ordinary folks with limited previous experience. It takes more time and a great deal of effort but they are learning successfully. One of my students visited Master Feathers a few months ago and my teacher was amazed at how well my dlp student was able to do the movements. He was on par with the local students.
 

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I think that the student's learning style probably has an effect on how well it works as well. In person, I can accomodate different learning styles more effectively. That cannot be done in an online or video format. Kinesthetic learners will benefit the least in a video/online format and visual learners will benefit the most.

As for the viability of online/video training, I think striking arts are probably translate the best while grappling arts are problematic. Hapkido I see as being somewhere in the middle, as it is a hybrid art, though again, a visual learner will benefit the most. I think that if the landscape of brick and mortar schools continues as it is, you will see more people willing to give an online/video format a chance, particularly if they have prior training.

This could be. It's hard to know really. Some people sign up stay on for a time and then I never hear from them again. It definitely isn't for everybody. In fairness though this is true of my brick and mortar school as well.
 

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