But you're not a black belt.

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Kittan Bachika

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This weekend some friends of one of my training buddies decided join us for a training session. It was pretty cool but afterwards things got a little tense. One of the guys who was joining us was a black belt in WTF/Olympic style TKD. He claimed to be a real hot shot during his college days and after a couple of beers he began talking smack about other styles and why his style was more superior. One of my training buddies made the point that the problem with WTF/Olympic style TKD was that the fighters dropped their hands. Mr. WTF/Olmpic style TKD did not take that too kindly and began insulting my training buddy's credentials and that his opinions mean nothing and said, his words not mine, "But you're not a black belt."

My buddy is not a black belt in any style. But, he is a bouncer and has been in more than his fair share of street fights. But despite that he realized that if he wanted to stack the deck in his favor, he would have to learn some real skills which is why he trains with us when he can. We all really like this guy but we keep telling him he needs to go a school and get some expert training. Not that we are slouches, but nothing beats learning under a good teacher over time.

My buddy asked Mr. WTF/Olympic style TKD why does having a black belt matter? WTF/Olympic style TKD replied with that if he had a black belt, he would not be so ignorant because he doesn't know what he is talking about. Yes. This was all very stupid and childish. My buddy the bouncer was actually smiling and took no offense but Mr. WTF/Olympic style TKD was really pumped up and started challenging him. We nipped that in the bud real quick and some of us took that guy aside told him to chill out and the friends of my training buddy called it a night and took him home.

What annoys me is the "But you're not a black belt" line. Because I have met black belts who don't deserve it who use this line when they can't explain a technique or do it properly. A lot of professional MMA fighters are not black belts but they know a lot about fighting.

BTW, I am not bagging on WTF/Olympic style TKD. Back in the day, I used to spar with a black belt in WTF TKD. His kicks were nasty. But even he admitted that his style wasn't perfect. Then again what style is?
 
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arnisador

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These people are kidding themselves. I've been taught stuff by yellow belts and absolutely by non-martial artists. I always listen.

Someone can not have a Ph.D. in a subject and still teach me something about it!
 
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Kittan Bachika

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These people are kidding themselves. I've been taught stuff by yellow belts and absolutely by non-martial artists. I always listen.

Someone can not have a Ph.D. in a subject and still teach me something about it!

Funny you mention that. When I first started learning how to do a wheel kick, I kept losing my balance. A relative of mine who knows nothing about martial arts realized after watching me that I was moving too fast.
 

Mark Lynn

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This afternoon I just started reading a book by Dave Lowry Moving Towards Stillness: Lessons in Daily Life from the Martial Ways of Japan. In the 1st or 2nd chapter he was writing about being a master on the mat as well as off of the mat. It is a shame that more black belts don't try and live their life as a black belt off of the mat. On the mat we strive to control our bodies, while off of the mat they run their mouths. On the mat we strive to pay respect to others or to be humble, while off the mat they trash others and make themselves out to be bigger than they are.
 

Dirty Dog

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The guy is a douchebag, a condition which is made worse by the alcohol.
 

Jaeimseu

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I agree that saying something dismissive like that is a d**k move, but I also think that most people who say the problem with Olympic Taekwondo is that they don't fight with their hands up don't know what they are talking about. Maybe the guy was tired of responding to the same old line, maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe he's just a jerk. Anyway, it sucks when people take that kind of attitude, regardless of their art.
 

Dirty Dog

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I agree that saying something dismissive like that is a d**k move, but I also think that most people who say the problem with Olympic Taekwondo is that they don't fight with their hands up don't know what they are talking about. Maybe the guy was tired of responding to the same old line, maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe he's just a jerk. Anyway, it sucks when people take that kind of attitude, regardless of their art.

Actually, in anything other than the very limited world of WTF competition, that IS one of the problems with training under WTF sparring rules.

He's a douchebag because of his 'you don't understand because you're not a black belt' attitude, his insults to the other persons training and experience, and his drunken challenge.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I agree that saying something dismissive like that is a d**k move, but I also think that most people who say the problem with Olympic Taekwondo is that they don't fight with their hands up don't know what they are talking about. Maybe the guy was tired of responding to the same old line, maybe he was having a bad day, or maybe he's just a jerk. Anyway, it sucks when people take that kind of attitude, regardless of their art.
I would agree with this, but the TKD guy was the one who started insulting other systems first, so he has to learn to take as good as he gave. And to be fair, it IS a problem with TKD that they don't use their hands. Not saying they aren't formidable, but there are plenty of TKD matches where the guys leaving himself open to a punch to the face. The punch never comes, because the other guy is planning on kicking, not punching, which just reinforces the idea of not paying attention to the hands. It's sad, but true (for the most part).
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Actually, in anything other than the very limited world of WTF competition, that IS one of the problems with training under WTF sparring rules.

He's a douchebag because of his 'you don't understand because you're not a black belt' attitude, his insults to the other persons training and experience, and his drunken challenge.
Welp, looks like I was beaten to the catch lol
 

Jaeimseu

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I would agree with this, but the TKD guy was the one who started insulting other systems first, so he has to learn to take as good as he gave. And to be fair, it IS a problem with TKD that they don't use their hands. Not saying they aren't formidable, but there are plenty of TKD matches where the guys leaving himself open to a punch to the face. The punch never comes, because the other guy is planning on kicking, not punching, which just reinforces the idea of not paying attention to the hands. It's sad, but true (for the most part).

Olympic Taekwondo is a sport. The face is open to punches because it's illegal to throw a punch to the face. The other guy isn't just focusing on kicks. He's prohibited from throwing punches to the face. It's the same reason why baseball, soccer, and basketball players don't hold their hands up to prevent punches to the face. In the context of a WTF match, having the hands down is not a problem.

Having said that, I'm absolutely not advocating the putting down of other systems, and it sounds like the guy was being a jerk, so I hope I didn't come across like I was defending him.
 

Mauthos

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It is an odd thing for me, I think anyone can teach someone something, for example, I used to hate the Corporals and Sargents in the RAF who would never listen to the highly experienced SAC just because he was a lower rank, and unfortunately I have seen the same behavior within the martial arts.

Being an instructor I have seen my ability and technique improve massively since I began teaching and this is purely down to my students opening my eyes, showing me things within techniques that I had never perceived before and helping me through their understanding, to understand the art to a greater degree. Anyone can have something useful to teach.

On that note, could someone explain to me why Olympic style TKD don't keep their hands up? To me this is very unusual because for as long as I can remember I have been taught, and now teach others, to always keep your hands up to protect your head. Is there a particular reason for keeping the hands low, as to me it seems like you are inviting a punch to the face.

Thanks for any explanation you can provide.
 

Dirty Dog

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WTF sparring rules do not allow punches to the head, so there's no reason to defend against them.
 

Mauthos

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That would explain it, although it does make me worry that if you train in that way all the time, surely if you actually had to use your TKD in a self defense situation or a simple fight on the street, would it be too much ingrained in the student or too much habit that naturally they would fight with their hands down, leaving themselves open to attacks to the face?
 

Dirty Dog

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That would explain it, although it does make me worry that if you train in that way all the time, surely if you actually had to use your TKD in a self defense situation or a simple fight on the street, would it be too much ingrained in the student or too much habit that naturally they would fight with their hands down, leaving themselves open to attacks to the face?

An observation and concern that have been raised about a bazillion times. Personally, I assume that you fight the way you train, and that this is a real concern. Others disagree.
 

Tez3

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It is an odd thing for me, I think anyone can teach someone something, for example, I used to hate the Corporals and Sargents in the RAF who would never listen to the highly experienced SAC just because he was a lower rank, and unfortunately I have seen the same behavior within the martial arts.

Being an instructor I have seen my ability and technique improve massively since I began teaching and this is purely down to my students opening my eyes, showing me things within techniques that I had never perceived before and helping me through their understanding, to understand the art to a greater degree. Anyone can have something useful to teach.

On that note, could someone explain to me why Olympic style TKD don't keep their hands up? To me this is very unusual because for as long as I can remember I have been taught, and now teach others, to always keep your hands up to protect your head. Is there a particular reason for keeping the hands low, as to me it seems like you are inviting a punch to the face.

Thanks for any explanation you can provide.

It depends on what trade you were whether SACs had more experience or not lol. Were you a Rock?


As far as the OP is concerned I think the guy was lucky the other chap was a bouncer with patience, many people would have just dropped him and while that might not have be within the 'martial arts ethos' it would have been very funny! I'd have laughed.
 

oftheherd1

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Olympic Taekwondo is a sport. The face is open to punches because it's illegal to throw a punch to the face. The other guy isn't just focusing on kicks. He's prohibited from throwing punches to the face. It's the same reason why baseball, soccer, and basketball players don't hold their hands up to prevent punches to the face. In the context of a WTF match, having the hands down is not a problem.

Having said that, I'm absolutely not advocating the putting down of other systems, and it sounds like the guy was being a jerk, so I hope I didn't come across like I was defending him.

Back in the mid-60s I briefly studied TKD under Jhoon Goo Rhee. When our students began going to tournaments, they quickly realized they were at a disadvantage because the karate guys would score points with punches. At distance, our guys were better at kicks. We had a great emphasis on kicks. That's OK as long as you can keep distance. When a puncher gets in close, he has more advantage. It wasn't that we didn't train punches, we just didn't really use them in sparring.

I gues WTF TKD has solved that problem by not allowing punches.
rolleyes.gif
 

Mauthos

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Not sure whether to be offended or flattered... No I was not a Rock (ape) :) I was a liney, avionics (yes a fairy) to be exact and worked everything from 1st line to 3rd line including servicing on a variety of aircraft.

I must agree with Dirty Dog though as I do believe that you will instinctively fight the way you train.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Oddly enough, I had something somewhat similar just happen to me recently. I was invited to a forum for a particular type of discussion about martial arts. A lot of what was said there wasn't of much interest to me, but I was flattered to have been invited, so I stayed, read the posts, didn't do much else. A couple of times, I made a comment, but was generally ignored when I did. OK, fine, whatever.

Recently, however, someone made a statement and I asked a question about it. One fellow answered me in quasi-Kwai Chang Caine verse, which made no sense. Still being polite, I asked the question a second time, and was again answered with self-written poety which again had no logic to it and nothing to do with the question I asked. Then I was informed that juniors, by which I presume means me, should know better than to speak when elders are talking, or words to that effect.

I have to admit, that stung a bit. The person who issued that statement was someone I considered a friend, one who had taken the time to invite me to his forum. Oh, I see. I am to remain silent, am I? Well, I *am* a junior, in karate. I'm not a black belt. But I am over 50 years old, I am not a child, and I won't be spoken to as if I were. I've been in the military and law enforcement, so I've had my share of fights and had to deal with lots of physical violence in my life. Yet, because I lack a black belt, I am not qualified to speak when my superiors are speaking. Oh, I see.

However, the cure was fairly simple. Rather than engage in dialogue with people who clearly did not see me as their equal, I simply left. No cutting remarks as I went, no good-byes, I just removed myself from the group and that's that. It's a shame, but it was the only choice I felt was appropriate.

At some point in the future, hopefully, I will have earned my black belt. I don't think a mantle of greatness will descend upon my shoulders, nor do I think that my words will suddenly carry more weight, or my pronouncement possess more gravitas. I will still be the person I was before I put on the kuro obi. But apparently, there are some who will be prepared to consider my words when I wear it, and not before. What a pity; for them.
 

Tez3

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Not sure whether to be offended or flattered... No I was not a Rock (ape) :) I was a liney, avionics (yes a fairy) to be exact and worked everything from 1st line to 3rd line including servicing on a variety of aircraft.

I must agree with Dirty Dog though as I do believe that you will instinctively fight the way you train.

Ah a penguin ( shiney **** lol). My other half was a Rock, I was an intel officer so that makes me worse lol. The Rocks have a way with young officers who come in thinking they know it all, the Squadron WO takes them to one side and tells them that while they are nominally in charge of the Flight, the SNCOs actually are and every man except the LACs knows more than they do. The SNCOs will put orders out in the officer's name to keep things looking right, the officer's job is to learn, learn and learn.
In martial arts this equates to people who are black belts not knowing everything and if someone knows better than them to shut up and learn. Pride in martial arts often comes before a smack in the mouth!

I remember we had it on here once when some of us were told to shut up as we weren't either black belts or only first Dans, too lowly to speak before the master.

I think you can only fight they way you train if you only train one way, many people say that about MMA that fighters can only fight with rules but the MMA fighters I know can just as easily switch off the rules in their head if attacked. MMA fighters train in a very rounded way, they only up their training when they have a fight which in UK may only be two or three times a year, the rest of the time they are training full on. If the TKD people train using their hands but don't for the odd competition then I think they'd be fine, it's when they are virtually pro fighters only training kicks the problems may arise.
 

Jaeimseu

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I must agree with Dirty Dog though as I do believe that you will instinctively fight the way you train.

I think this idea probably has some merit, but how far do we take it? This gets thrown out at WTF competitors a lot...how about schools who "pull" their punches? Under what conditions does "you fight like you train" apply?
 
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