Favorite Form?

[dancingalone]

What good are forms really? A person can know 100 forms or know 6 or 7 forms and be just as good.

It depends on the system. I've been exposed to a CMA village style that tended to keep each concept siloed into a separate form. So if you didn't learn all the forms in the system you never learned all the principles either.

Since we're in the TKD section, I'll use the Pyung Ahn forms for example. The first hint at the use of stomping to add force into a short punch occurs in Pyung Ahn Oh-Dan. If you've only learned the four hyung prior to Oh-Dan, you wouldn't have been exposed to this concept.

Again, it's not about quanity. It's QUALITY.

 

[zDom]

Because there's needless repetition if you train both. How many down blocks and reverse punch forms do you really need after all? The extra time you spend on another set of forms (likely without applications training) would be better spent on heavy bag and body conditioning or perhaps even self-defense work.

Practicing MORE forms do NOT make your TKD better. Practicing the ones you know MEANINGFULLY will.

It all depends on the individual.

I agree that most students who, who typically don't dedicate themselves to practicing their art enough, should probably stick with one set.

But for those willing to put in the reps on multiple sets of forms, it can be a more interesting way to practice than simply standing in a static stance counting off low blocks.

Also, as there ARE small variations, the practitioner who dedicates him/herself to practicing additional forms are training into their neuro-muscular system additional possibilities for trained movement.

 

[dancingalone]

Also, as there ARE small variations, the practitioner who dedicates him/herself to practicing additional forms are training into their neuro-muscular system additional possibilities for trained movement.

I disagree strongly. Why confuse your body with multiple ways of pivoting or executing a stance? Most TKD forms use a front stance, but the Tae Geuk forms use a walking stance. Which will your body use under pressure from an attacker?

Sorry to come across a bit intensely, but as an instructor, I really could not disagree more with this idea of assembling a patchwork collection of forms. You don't learn a form just for the sake of learning one. What does each pattern teach? How does it build upon the previous one you learned? What applications do you know from each movement and can you think of a "hidden" one to complement the one you were taught?

Less is more.

 

[Kwanjang]

I disagree strongly. Why confuse your body with multiple ways of pivoting or executing a stance? Most TKD forms use a front stance, but the Tae Geuk forms use a walking stance. Which will your body use under pressure from an attacker?

Sorry to come across a bit intensely, but as an instructor, I really could not disagree more with this idea of assembling a patchwork collection of forms. You don't learn a form just for the sake of learning one. What does each pattern teach? How does it build upon the previous one you learned? What applications do you know from each movement and can you think of a "hidden" one to complement the one you were taught?

Less is more.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion! However, as an Instructor myself... I know two sets of forms, the Chang Han and the TG's. I teach chon ji to white belts for its simplicity and TG's for yellow and above. and at black belt we continue the KKW forms and add a few of the old CH BB forms. The TG's have walking stances in them to teach the practitioner mobility AND they have long formal stances mixed in to help with leg strength! As far as teaching a few of the BB chang han form to my BB students. First of all they are beautiful, secondly, Those forms are very dynamic With big deep stances, flying kicks, etc. I believe there is a great balance as far as kicking in both the aforementioned set of forms. Besides the chang han forms are a part of TKD history. I explain to my students forms are like a multi-vitiman for TKD, they have blocks, punches, kicks, hand strikes, stances-and how to transition smoothly form movement to movement, along with the breathing skills, all the essentials necessary to complement your performance. Great forms help breed great sparring... and great sparring breeds a more confident student for SD- Simply because of the timing aspect of Free sparring. What a great way to enhance your cardio endurance, your muscular endurance and muscle memory! At my 5th dan exam I was required to perform 27 forms, one right after the other, after basic fundamentals. For there is NO "art" with out Poomse. Ultimately it is not the quantity of forms you know-but the quality of practice you put in them. Not everyone can handle knowing two sets of forms, because of the attention to detail required by the forms. I can't speak for others, but I would like to think "those special students" Because of there natural talent and at the advanced levels, they are able to comprehend the "philosophy" of each form, if taught correctly. Those exceptional students will NOT be confused. A pivot is still a pivot, a stance is still a stance. (you have to drill this into them with basic fundamentals) I will concede there are some students who seldom practice on their own. They barely can handle preforming one form let alone I set. The only time they practice is at class-and I can definitely tell them apart from those who practice on there own.

 

[Sylo]

I disagree strongly. Why confuse your body with multiple ways of pivoting or executing a stance? Most TKD forms use a front stance, but the Tae Geuk forms use a walking stance. Which will your body use under pressure from an attacker?

Sorry to come across a bit intensely, but as an instructor, I really could not disagree more with this idea of assembling a patchwork collection of forms. You don't learn a form just for the sake of learning one. What does each pattern teach? How does it build upon the previous one you learned? What applications do you know from each movement and can you think of a "hidden" one to complement the one you were taught?

Less is more.

less is more is true...

but more never hurt.

 

[dancingalone]

A pivot is still a pivot, a stance is still a stance.

Well, therein lies the difference in my viewpoint and yours, Mr. Wall. You can certainly perform all the forms the same way, but you'd be making them all rather generic. I've seen and I believe in style specificity. In the end with regard to self-defense, they probably don't matter, but for transmitting the flavor and distinctiveness of a style they can and should matter. Moreover, practicing multiple ways of performing the same manuever will have detrimental effects to your muscle memory. A talented and dedicated enough martial artist can overcome this, but again I must ask why bother? Go practice some other facet that will improve your TKD.
But I'm a traditionalist. I believe you are a Chung Do Kwan guy? Would you not agree that in the past the Chung Do Kwan had their particular way of doing things and it would be a shame to let it all fade away into generic oblivion?

 

[dancingalone]

less is more is true...

but more never hurt.

It does in my book.

 

[Kwanjang]

Well, therein lies the difference in my viewpoint and yours, Mr. Wall. You can certainly perform all the forms the same way, but you'd be making them all rather generic. I've seen and I believe in style specificity. In the end with regard to self-defense, they probably don't matter

But I'm a traditionalist. I believe you are a Chung Do Kwan guy? Would you not agree that in the past the Chung Do Kwan had their particular way of doing things and it would be a shame to let it all fade away into generic oblivion?

:mst:

Kata, Poomse, textbook definition: A series of movement arranged in a specific pattern designed to "simulate" defense against multiple "Imaginary" attackers. Each belt form has elements in them designed to teach the student specifics at that level. Can man live off forms alone? NO!

I perform the Forms the way my instructor tells me-and the way his instructor, GM Park Hae Man tells him, and He performs poomse the way his Instructor GM Uhm taught him. I am blessed to have a strong and pure lineage. (its called being accountable) I have trained with GM Park, Hae Man, several times. Each form has it's purpose and distinct cadence. I also believe in style specificity! How can you postulate practicing forms doesn't matter and people aren't capable of discernment?a"and in the end they probably do't matter for SD? You must be from the "Terry Silver School of thought" The ancient master's prepared for battles to the death By practicing their forms(among other things as well)-Each sub discipline complements the other. If you don't know and acknowledge this, you are not the "traditionalist" you claim you are. I don't practice the forms the same way-since the TG's and the CH forms have different Philosophy- and since you have never seen me demonstrate the forms, you are making an uneducated statement. The Chung Do Kwan Does, and still has its way. I am not trying to boast, I have won several forms grand champion competitions. Hell at one tournament. I performed Koryo for the win in my division and for the grand champion round i performed Chung Mu. As long as there is life in my body there is know way I will let it "slip into oblivion" On a final note, I noticed on your page, in the about you tab, there is nothing telling us about you, your rank, your training history, any competition accomplishments, and lineage. Until then, ( I can't speak for others here on MT) Your opinion means little to me. Respectfully speaking of course

 

[Sylo]

It does in my book.

We aren't reading the same book.

Which is fine. I don't really think there is a right or wrong answer to this. If you can comprehend the application of different forms. There can be 0 harm in learning them all. I don't like to limit myself. If I am capable of doing something, I will learn it. I don't think anyone ever stops learning.. if they do then maybe we should go back and look at what is being taught? I see your point in what your trying to say. But there are some students out there who do care, and who do genuinely want to go above and beyond with their training. What about the people who study more than one art? They have multiple forms to learn? As long as they can comprehend 100% of what they are learning, I don't see at all how its hurting them.

 

[dancingalone]

We aren't reading the same book.

Which is fine. I don't really think there is a right or wrong answer to this. If you can comprehend the application of different forms. There can be 0 harm in learning them all. I don't like to limit myself. If I am capable of doing something, I will learn it. I don't think anyone ever stops learning.. if they do then maybe we should go back and look at what is being taught? I see your point in what your trying to say. But there are some students out there who do care, and who do genuinely want to go above and beyond with their training. What about the people who study more than one art? They have multiple forms to learn? As long as they can comprehend 100% of what they are learning, I don't see at all how its hurting them.

Yes, we are. <shrugs> I've outlined my opinion and I'll let it stand for itself.

 

[Sylo]

Yes, we are. <shrugs> I've outlined my opinion and I'll let it stand for itself.

Sometimes thats just what we have to do. Not everyone thinks or works the same. Its not fair to try to make them either. If your way of thinking works for you and your students, then your doing great. If someone elses way of thinking is working for them.. then good for them too.

 

[dancingalone]

I can see that I've unintentionally pushed your buttons, Mr. Wall. My apologies for hurting your feelings. This is a message board and it's hard to convey tone appropriately through the written word.

Kata, Poomse, textbook definition: A series of movement arranged in a specific pattern designed to "simulate" defense against multiple "Imaginary" attackers. Each belt form has elements in them designed to teach the student specifics at that level. Can man live off forms alone? NO!

This is rather out of the blue though. I don't necessarily argue with it, so I'm not sure why you're manufacturing an argument?

I perform the Forms the way my instructor tells me-and the way his instructor, GM Park Hae Man tells him, and He performs poomse the way his Instructor GM Uhm taught him. I am blessed to have a strong and pure lineage. (its called being accountable) I have trained with GM Park, Hae Man, several times.

You do indeed have a good lineage. Congratulations. It's one to proud of.

Each form has it's purpose and distinct cadence. I also believe in style specificity! How can you postulate practicing forms doesn't matter and people aren't capable of discernment?a"and in the end they probably do't matter for SD?

You're misinterpreting what I said in reponse to your statement that a "pivot was a pivot". I said they are not, with manuevers being conducted differently in each set of forms. The differences may appear to be slight, but they can be quite profound in terms of body structure integrity when working applications, something I do a lot of.

You must be from the "Terry Silver School of thought" The ancient master's prepared for battles to the death By practicing their forms(among other things as well)-Each sub discipline complements the other. If you don't know and acknowledge this, you are not the "traditionalist" you claim you are. I don't practice the forms the same way-since the TG's and the CH forms have different Philosophy- and since you have never seen me demonstrate the forms, you are making an uneducated statement.

I assume you're making a Karate Kid reference? I prefer Sato myself if you're trying to paint me as a villain.

As for the ancient masters preparing for battles to the death by practicing forms, well, that's a bit of a dramatic statement with no corroborating evidence behind it. We do know it's true that the Okinawans did practice kata as early as the 1800's with no free fighting at all. Going beyond that is perhaps historically inaccurate.

I don't know what you mean by sub discipline. I stated the sets of forms used in TKD are all fairly recent in origin other than the original Pyung Ahn forms. I did assert their performance is different, however subtle, so you are now in fact agreeing with me, albeit your prior statement that "a pivot is a pivot". Once again, the major point I was making on this thread is that it is counterproductive to practice multiple sets of TKD forms since they have differences in them, however slight. It's bad for your muscle memory, and I see little if any benefit to be gained, since any applications work usually derive from the original root of the Pyung Ahns.

You are right that I've never seen your patterns. Do I have to? This is a message board, when you make assertions that a "pivot is a pivot" you'll have to explain yourself further or else cope with disagreement of others. That's just the nature of the medium. Whatever lofty rank you hold in your dojang or organization remains behind. I wouldn't know your identity if you didn't reveal it, Mr. Wall. That fact that you choose to reveal it doesn't change the message board dynamic where everyone reads and responds whether in agreement or disagreement.

The Chung Do Kwan Does, and still has its way.

Good. I like that.

I am not trying to boast, I have won several forms grand champion competitions. Hell at one tournament. I performed Koryo for the win in my division and for the grand champion round i performed Chung Mu. As long as there is life in my body there is know way I will let it "slip into oblivion"

Congratulations. Then perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining further your statement that "A pivot is still a pivot, a stance is still a stance." It would seem that would contradict your current position that differences do exist.

On a final note, I noticed on your page, in the about you tab, there is nothing telling us about you, your rank, your training history, any competition accomplishments, and lineage. Until then, ( I can't speak for others here on MT) Your opinion means little to me. Respectfully speaking of course

I don't mean to be sarcastic but please don't play these word games with me. My "opinion" on this board meant enough for you to draft a lengthy and somewhat caustic reply in return. By your tone, I can tell that I've hurt your feelings and again that was not my intent.

I choose to be anonymous as a form of self-defense. I don't know you, Mr. Wall, and you don't know me, and that's fine. This is a message board, after all. Your accomplishments however laudable don't carry forward through the Internet, and you'd be surprised by who is lurking out there as well. In the end, your opinion means as much to me as Sylo's, who seems to be a blue belt somewhere. No offense intended by the way. All members of this board have something valuable to contribute. No more, no less.

 

[BrandonLucas]

First off, let's keep in mind that this is, after all, a message board, where people share their seperate opinions, and many times opinions differ. Let's try to keep things civil.

Secondly, I tend to try to think in terms of things I can relate to. I play guitar, so to me, music is a great analogy of what we're talking about here.

There are many, many, many scales and modes to learn on the guitar, or in music in general. Many scales fit better in a song over certain chords, while many sound great on their own. It all depends on the context in which it is played or heard.

I like to learn scales. It helps me in my creativity of writing new material. I could choose to stick to the 1 or 2 scales that I've learned well, but I feel like those get old after a while. If I can play, let's say the blues scale in Em, really well, and this is the main scale that I've been working on for the last year or so, then most of my infulence for writing new material will have come from this one scale. Everything I write has the potential to sound the same.

However, if I learn the blues scale in Em as well as the Dorian mode in Em, then I have more to work with. Just because I'm learning 2 scales at the same time doesn't mean that I'm going to play either of them any better or worse than I would have just spending time on only 1 scale. In fact, I have the potential to play both of these scales better than I would have working on them seperately, since one scale has the potential to enhance the other.

To me, forms are the same way. Not everyone can learn multiple forms at once, since we all learn differently. I have learned 2 forms at the same time, and it really helped me to hone my technique. Again, that's just how it was for me. I'm not saying everyone is like that.

I think that teaching students, while having a cirriculum, still needs to be based on an individual level. There are going to be students who exceed the expectation of other students, who really need to learn more than the average student. Granted, these are going to be few and far between, but I don't see how it would hurt a student to add to their studies.

So, respectfully, I disagree, but I do understand that the rule of "to each his/her own" applies here. We don't have to agree, but let's please try to remember that we're all here for the same reasons, and that as martial artists in general, respect is part of our code of honor.

 

[Kwanjang]

I can see that I've unintentionally pushed your buttons, Mr. Wall. My apologies for hurting your feelings. This is a message board and it's hard to convey tone appropriately through the written word.

No, You havem't pushed my buttons, nor hurt my feelings. But thanks anyway!



This is rather out of the blue though. I don't necessarily argue with it, so I'm not sure why you're manufacturing an argument?

No manufacture arguement.Just discussion and MY View point.



You do indeed have a good lineage. Congratulations. It's one to proud of.

Thank you for acknowledgment on a GREAT lineage. I am humbled by the privileged an honor to have it.



You're misinterpreting what I said in reponse to your statement that a "pivot was a pivot". I said they are not, with manuevers being conducted differently in each set of forms. The differences may appear to be slight, but they can be quite profound in terms of body structure integrity when working applications, something I do a lot of.

Maybe you should be more specific on you use of the term pivot. Did you mean pivot as in turning the body- from the A side of the bar of the form to the B side of the form, or maybe, turning onto the mainline, from the B side of the bar of the form. or, pivoting the support foot while kicking?



I assume you're making a Karate Kid reference? I prefer Sato myself if you're trying to paint me as a villain.

Yes, it was a Karate kid reference, You get an A+ I was referring to Karate kid 3 when when Danielson got faked ou by Terry Silver. Danielson started to practice Kata waiting for Silver in the Cobra Kai dojo. Silver came out of the back witnessed him Practicing Kata said to Daniel, "what are use wasting time practicing kata-don't you know it a waste of timand won't help you in atourament".

As for the ancient masters preparing for battles to the death by practicing forms, well, that's a bit of a dramatic statement with no corroborating evidence behind it. We do know it's true that the Okinawans did practice kata as early as the 1800's with no free fighting at all. Going beyond that is perhaps historically inaccurate.

I was refering to the Chinees masters of antiquity, the samuria class-who were also MA'st practice both empty hand close combat, with the bow and arrow and of course the sword. This (the sammurai) does in fact date back at least 900 years. King David- made his warriors practice form with thier sword. I suggest you do some more researc, there are plenty of reliable text out there to cooborate my statements, You should maybe do some more researching, as do I, and most of the regular poste's on MT

I don't know what you mean by sub discipline. I stated the sets of forms used in TKD are all fairly recent in origin other than the original Pyung Ahn forms. I did assert their performance is different, however subtle, so you are now in fact agreeing with me, albeit your prior statement that "a pivot is a pivot". Once again, the major point I was making on this thread is that it is counterproductive to practice multiple sets of TKD forms since they have differences in them, however slight. It's bad for your muscle memory, and I see little if any benefit to be gained, since any applications work usually derive from the original root of the Pyung Ahns.

I have been taught the are 5 Sub-diciplines that make-up th e main Discipline of TKD. #1.warm-ups (Calisthenics) #2.Basic fundamentals, #3. Poomsea, #4 One-step sparring, #5 Freesparring,, and of course - SD training. Once again on the pivot, I refer to the above question in paragraph 1. I do't see knowinfg two sets of forms as counter productive and bad for you muscle memory. You have't provided cooboration that it is. The MA'st I 've witnessed are quite competent of doing both sets of forms and understanding the concepts of each form. To short change their ability is not fair to them.

You are right that I've never seen your patterns. Do I have to? This is a message board, when you make assertions that a "pivot is a pivot" you'll have to explain yourself further or else cope with disagreement of others. That's just the nature of the medium. Whatever lofty rank you hold in your dojang or organization remains behind. I wouldn't know your identity if you didn't reveal it, Mr. Wall. That fact that you choose to reveal it doesn't change the message board dynamic where everyone reads and responds whether in agreement or disagreement.

Assertions on the pivot, see paragraph 1. So I can have a clearer understanding of what you mean- to help cope with your disagreement.
My years of service and my "lofty rank" is a the forefront of most of my knowledge, not to mention reading studying the history (mainly Korean) for the 28 years. Sir, I am still a student of MA after all these years. Don't consider arguement , just an intlectual discussion



Congratulations. Then perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining further your statement that "A pivot is still a pivot, a stance is still a stance." It would seem that would contradict your current position that differences do exis

as far as the pivot you speak of- again see paragraph 1. So you can clarify-so I will have a better understanding of your point.

I don't mean to be sarcastic but please don't play these word games with me. My "opinion" on this board meant enough for you to draft a lengthy and somewhat caustic reply in return. By your tone, I can tell that I've hurt your feelings and again that was not my intent.

I 've read your post and they all seem sacastic to me. There are no word games. we are very passionate about MA and most of us have many years of experience-and Book knowledge, creating strong opinions. I do respect other people opinions, thats why I often use "In my opinion" or "I personally believe" If you truly knew me you would know my response was not caustic. Once again, you did not hurt my feeligs. Yeah, it was a lengthy response-just trying to convey what I saw was a tone in your responses to others.

I choose to be anonymous as a form of self-defense. I don't know you, Mr. Wall, and you don't know me, and that's fine. This is a message board, after all. Your accomplishments however laudable don't carry forward through the Internet, and you'd be surprised by who is lurking out there as well. In the end, your opinion means as much to me as Sylo's, who seems to be a blue belt somewhere. No offense intended by the way. All members of this board have something valuable to contribute. No more, no less.

Choosing to be anonymous is certainly your choice. But I don't think anyone who posts on this forum will ever attack you. I just think it would give more credit to your posts. My accompliments do carry forward through the intenet. As do others accomplishments who regularly post on MT. Oh my gosh Lurkers...:lurk: NO WAY j/k
Still, Knowing some of your background would help define why you are so passionate and opinionated.

No feelings hurt...Just healthy discussion :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

4)Tae Guk forms - new forms created by Kukkiwon for political reasons to replace the Palgwe. These forms use a high walking stance. I would have a hard time stretching the old Japanese/Okinawan bunkai with these forms and I really regard them as moving basics. I'm sure Kukkiwon people will disagree with me though. Not that much kicking in these either to my recollection.

As a Kukkiwon people, I would mostly agree with the caveat that taegeuks oh-jang through pal-jang tend to have less walking stance.

Daniel

 

[Kwanjang]

As a Kukkiwon people, I would mostly agree with the caveat that taegeuks oh-jang through pal-jang tend to have less walking stance.

Daniel

I agree Celtic Tiger!

 

[zDom]

Hokay ... we definately have some differing opinions and I don't think either side is going to change their stance


This, by the way, seems to me to be another manifestation of an age-old argument:

At one extreme, you can have someone who says: Learn ONE technique, say a punch, and master it.

At the other extreme, you have the guy who thinks you are better off learning 10,000 techniques.

Most of us are all in between those two, trying to find a balance between having enough techniques so that you have some options while having few enough to sufficiently train those options.

I am of the FIRM belief that there is no absolute "truth" &#8212; it all depends on the individual.

Speaking for myself, I was fine with doing both the Taegueks (our required forms) and the Chong Hon (optional, providing our Taegueks were up to par) up until about blue belt.

At that point because I was ALSO studying hapkido, I realized it WAS too much for me to keep sharp &#8212; I dropped the Chong Hons (except for Chon Ji, the Chong Hon's first form, and the black belt Chong Hons forms required for us (in addition to the Kukkiwon/WTF black belt forms).

But if I had chosen TKD over HKD I have NO doubt that I would have continued to do both sets of forms (for ME, TKD is all about training forms!). I don't think I would have tried to take on a third set &#8212; but then someone who is blessed with being able to practice TKD full time just might be able to, depending on their ability

In the end, EVERYONE's mileage varies

 

[zDom]

One (I hope) final comment:

I believe there is a time and place for BOTH the walking stances AND the front stances — and the ability to move fluidly between the two is GOOD.

(Which is why I am so dead-set against changes in TKD that eliminate deep stances.)

Deep stances for power and stability; high stances for speed and mobility.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Scott, I can relate on the too much at once. I practice hapkido and taekwondo, while instructing and practicing kumdo. It seems through the course of the year, each one is 'my baby' for couple of months at a time while I keep steady on the other two, but it is a lot of juggling, and I definitely wouldn't want to be doing two sets of taekwondo forms, though I do feel that from a body of knowledge standpoint, knowing more than one is useful to an instructor.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I assume you're making a Karate Kid reference? I prefer Sato myself if you're trying to paint me as a villain.

John Crease (SP) was the karate kid evil instructor. I too liked Sato. Don't remember if Tim Silver was the villain in K-Kid three (though in that one, John Crease came back in the last quarter of the movie) or 'The Next Karate Kid (Hillary Swank). And what horrible follow up K-Kid three was after the first two which were excellent in my opinion. Next K-Kid was alright, though not as good as the first two K-Kids.

Daniel