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Transk53

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You are projecting every fight into a mutual confrontation. Sometimes it is and could be considered avoidable. Sometimes it isn't.

Now regarding that I will engage in a fight or at least in force if the other persons bad behaviour is too extreme regardless as to whether they are an immediate threat or if I conceivably could have de escalated.

That is the problem bear. While you and I know that it is just as likely that once turned and walking away, one of those little darlings will jump on our backs. There is still no justification to knock them clean out. You have to let it happen in that context. The good thing is that the wolf pack is usually a poodle pack. So merely turning around and being impassive does the trick.
 

Dirty Dog

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Sorry that was half a concept. Say you do something that is awful and I act using force Eg. i jump up and slap you.

You feel that deserves a to be a prison sentence and to be molested while inside.

And you think I have the moral vacuum?

Yes. I do. Because you believe in using violence against non-violent people.

That's vile.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.
 

BMhadoken

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That is the problem bear. While you and I know that it is just as likely that once turned and walking away, one of those little darlings will jump on our backs. There is still no justification to knock them clean out. You have to let it happen in that context. The good thing is that the wolf pack is usually a poodle pack. So merely turning around and being impassive does the trick.
Of course you don't literally turn around and stroll away from an escalato conflict. The other guy's likely to take that as just one more insult to his pile of grievances against you, and it makes it very hard to keep him in your sights until you're at a safe distance.

The point isn't that it's super easy, because pride's a hell of a thing to put aside. It's not even that it always works, because we all know it doesn't. But if things go bad and the cops show up to ask you why you've just beat a man with his own kneecaps, you really want to be able to reasonably explain why the high road wasn't working.
 

Transk53

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Of course you don't literally turn around and stroll away from an escalato conflict. The other guy's likely to take that as just one more insult to his pile of grievances against you, and it makes it very hard to keep him in your sights until you're at a safe distance.

The point isn't that it's super easy, because pride's a hell of a thing to put aside. It's not even that it always works, because we all know it doesn't. But if things go bad and the cops show up to ask you why you've just beat a man with his own kneecaps, you really want to be able to reasonably explain why the high road wasn't working.

Pride I get. I have it in spades. That is the point being just mine. Projected pride is nothing more than arrogance if one cannot walk away due to pride. You do what is necessary nothing more. And no, it is not hard to get to a safe distance either, you use what's around you.
 

drop bear

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Yes. I do. Because you believe in using violence against non-violent people.

That's vile.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

Your choice to live how you want I suppose. I don't agree with your stance just from a fundamental belief that human dignity can be protected with violence.

You of course don't have to stand up for yours. And can consider those who do as vile as you want.
 

drop bear

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That is the problem bear. While you and I know that it is just as likely that once turned and walking away, one of those little darlings will jump on our backs. There is still no justification to knock them clean out. You have to let it happen in that context. The good thing is that the wolf pack is usually a poodle pack. So merely turning around and being impassive does the trick.

There is plenty of behavior that is demeaning and will intentionally cause damage without being violent or threatening.

You can be the sort of person who puts up with it or the sort of person who doesn't.

Personally putting up with unacceptable behaviour only encourages people to continue that behaviour.

I think you can be a nice guy and also not be a *****.
 

drop bear

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Pride I get. I have it in spades. That is the point being just mine. Projected pride is nothing more than arrogance if one cannot walk away due to pride. You do what is necessary nothing more. And no, it is not hard to get to a safe distance either, you use what's around you.
Of course you don't literally turn around and stroll away from an escalato conflict. The other guy's likely to take that as just one more insult to his pile of grievances against you, and it makes it very hard to keep him in your sights until you're at a safe distance.

The point isn't that it's super easy, because pride's a hell of a thing to put aside. It's not even that it always works, because we all know it doesn't. But if things go bad and the cops show up to ask you why you've just beat a man with his own kneecaps, you really want to be able to reasonably explain why the high road wasn't working.

Les about pride and more about respect. You can reasonably expect some I think.
 

drop bear

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Yes. I do. Because you believe in using violence against non-violent people.

That's vile.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

Oh. Me and the pope believe in violence.

 

Transk53

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There is plenty of behavior that is demeaning and will intentionally cause damage without being violent or threatening.

You can be the sort of person who puts up with it or the sort of person who doesn't.

Personally putting up with unacceptable behaviour only encourages people to continue that behaviour.

I think you can be a nice guy and also not be a *****.

Well in terms of people, there will always be more. That is the nature of the game, and while perhaps not strictly being a game, those same people will always view it as such. it makes no difference if you put up with or not, it is still there. You get a group of five people standing in front you giving the large. love em, let them do it, it makes no difference if they deem you are accepting it or not, they will continue. Either they get bored, or try something stupid. They try something stupid, the whole area becomes alive with the notion that they have done something stupid. IMHO, it not actually about whether someone is nice or not, the dice still fall the same way in any given situation. That is were professionalism comes into to play, and out of that what is necessary. Personally putting up with unacceptable behavior is wrong, hence why you act under that umbrella of professionalism, but no one needs any encouragement to act like a complete tool unfortunately.
 

Transk53

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Les about pride and more about respect. You can reasonably expect some I think.

You don't garner respect by sledging people outside of a ring. You would like to think that a human would have basic respect for the values that we all hold dear, but in the real world that don't happen with some people. being prideful is not wrong, but that same pride can get you seriously hurt, or even killed.
 

K-man

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I never said it turned you into an "out of control killing machine". I said that once you decide to stomp someone on the ground with enough force to incapacitate them, you're setting yourself up for potentially killing them as well. You simply can't fully control the outcome of that attack the way you can control a choke.

In other words, you're more likely to kill someone from those self defense finishing moves you see in Krav Maga, Karate, etc. Than from a choke hold.
So, as usual, you avoid the question being asked and take off down another burrow.

You claimed people teaching self defence were advocating using a stomp to the head or chest as a finishing technique and I asked you to provide an example because, quite frankly, that is a ridiculous assertion. Anyone teaching self defence would know that it is no longer self defence to stomp on someone's neck or head if the threat has passed. I specifically asked you not to quote combatives. Then you post a Krav video.

But let me address this new assertion.
"In other words, you're more likely to kill someone from those self defense finishing moves you see in Krav Maga, Karate, etc. Than from a choke hold."

Basically your statement is true ... except that those techniques have very little to do with self defence. But of course you already know that.

Your statement is as nonsensical as me saying that punches, kicks or elbow strikes to the head in an MMA competition are more likely to cause permanent brain damage than a choke. The statement is true but it has no place in the discussion.
 
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PhotonGuy

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The thing is, bullies often deserve to get pounded. I am all against instigating or picking fights with innocent people, but if somebody else decides to instigate they should get what they have coming to them and a person shouldn't get in trouble for giving them what they had coming to them. That way this world will be a much safer place because people will think twice before deciding to be bullies. Take for instance this guy, he deserved it.

 

Transk53

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The thing is, bullies often deserve to get pounded. I am all against instigating or picking fights with innocent people, but if somebody else decides to instigate they should get what they have coming to them and a person shouldn't get in trouble for giving them what they had coming to them. That way this world will be a much safer place because people will think twice before deciding to be bullies. Take for instance this guy, he deserved it.


Nice sentiment, but does not work that way. Social development has not reached Gene Rodenbury hieghts just yet.
 

ballen0351

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The thing is, bullies often deserve to get pounded.
No nobody deserves to "get pounded"
I am all against instigating or picking fights with innocent people
unless they say something you dont like then they a bullies and need pounding
but if somebody else decides to instigate they should get what they have coming to them and a person shouldn't get in trouble for giving them what they had coming to them.
No once you are no longer in danger and continue to "teach" them a lesson your a criminal and are no better if not worse then the other person.
That way this world will be a much safer place because people will think twice before deciding to be bullies. Take for instance this guy, he deserved it.

No it wouldn't there are many reason why people become bullies. Your simplistic view of punch a bully in the face and they go away just isnt true its just something you tell kids to help their confidence but in real life its not that simple. Fact is some people are just bad or evil standing up to them wont change that and will lead to more violence
 

jks9199

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Monkey dance fights are also predatory. Some people gain status and respect by beating up other people. Whether they are avoiding confrontation or not.

Coming from someone who has seen a few unnecessary victims of the above mentality.
No. In the context you're describing, you confuse things when you describe a Monkey Dance as a predatory attack. Certainly, they can and are very targeted, and certain classes of Monkey Dances indeed select a victim in order to puff up the attacker's status -- but they're different than a predatory attack. Predation is just that: resource driven violence. The victim has money/food/sex that the attacker wants, and the attacker is going out to get it. You want out of a targeted Monkey Dance, the solution is there. Walk away. Lose face... Or don't even play the game.
 

jks9199

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If you can deescalate and don't even try, then you're the problem, and I hope you get to spend a few years in an 8'x10' cell with a hairy backed knuckle dragging mouth breather named Bubba who wants to be your special friend.

There is never a valid reason to resort to force against someone who is not an immediate threat. Never.
I'll take a small exception to the last part. There is sometimes a justification -- of course, the people who are given that authority and justification tend to be the cops, and sometimes security. For example, you have someone who is passively refusing to leave a place. Cops, security, or even the owner may use limited force to remove them from the property. That's nowhere near "smash 'em for being rude", though...
 

jks9199

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I never said it turned you into an "out of control killing machine". I said that once you decide to stomp someone on the ground with enough force to incapacitate them, you're setting yourself up for potentially killing them as well. You simply can't fully control the outcome of that attack the way you can control a choke.
You can't "fully control the outcome" of a choke hold, either. You don't know if they person has some invisible, inherent condition like an aneurism, damaged trachea, weak heart, or even just brain trauma from drinking or a ton of concussions, that might cause their death. Guess what, you're liable and responsible for it. "You take your victim as you find them" is a legal maxim...
In other words, you're more likely to kill someone from those self defense finishing moves you see in Krav Maga, Karate, etc. Than from a choke hold.
Well, y'know, that just might be why they're called "finishing moves..." Finishing is kind of the intent... But it doesn't remove a choke hold from being considered lethal force. (In fact, I'd swear some of those finishing moves in various arts are chokes or neck breaks...)
 

K-man

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Well, y'know, that just might be why they're called "finishing moves..." Finishing is kind of the intent... But it doesn't remove a choke hold from being considered lethal force. (In fact, I'd swear some of those finishing moves in various arts are chokes or neck breaks...)
Using a choke here is considered 'attempted murder' under some circumstances. All my security mates have been told never to choke. As to your 'finishing moves in various arts' being chokes or neck breaks ... spot on.
 

drop bear

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No. In the context you're describing, you confuse things when you describe a Monkey Dance as a predatory attack. Certainly, they can and are very targeted, and certain classes of Monkey Dances indeed select a victim in order to puff up the attacker's status -- but they're different than a predatory attack. Predation is just that: resource driven violence. The victim has money/food/sex that the attacker wants, and the attacker is going out to get it. You want out of a targeted Monkey Dance, the solution is there. Walk away. Lose face... Or don't even play the game.

I should have said can be predatory. If we take sex as a resource then we take the whole range of emotional fulfillment as one.

Bullies don't need an escalation to comit violence.
 

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