Does Wing Chun train to Fight?

wayfaring

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Does Wing Chun train to fight?

Off the top of my head, who do you mean by Wing Chun? The nun? LOL. It seems the noun here is sorely lacking in accountability.

You train to fight. Or you don't.

What kind of fight? Well, what kind are you likely to face? What kind are you seeking? I suppose you should train for that. Seek a scenario for training that. Or don't. Bury the head in the sand like an ostrich.

That's kind of the choice here people make. I do admit I like to punch people in the face, with varying amounts of gloved coverage, and don't mind getting punched either. At a less than concussion pace. And yes, I do like to choke ninjas also.

Do my Wing Chun students?

Not all of them. Some do, some don't. They have a root and foundation in structure and movement that they can take with them to any endeavor. Along with confidence. I do like to get them comfortable with contact at a very light introduction pace, including gloves. Just so they don't tense up like a frozen squirrel when they get hit LOL.
 

geezer

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What? Does Wing Chun fight trains? See 3:30 - 3:45 in the clip below.


...er, that was what you were saking? :D
 

yak sao

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What? Does Wing Chun fight trains? See 3:30 - 3:45 in the clip below.


...er, that was what you were saking? :D

No no, not does WC fight trains, I believe the question is. 'does WC fight on trains'.

 

Dominic82555

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Is your WC about fighting or about Kung Fu.

Do you train for a work out or to fight?

I think people take up martial arts for different reasons. It can be same thing about boxing. You can punch the heavy bag every day, you can shadow box, You can jump rope and hit focus mitts and even Run three miles and lift Weights. But until you actually Spar your Boxing is not fighting.

When i learn WC we practice
1.Solo Punches and Kicks
2. Partner reflex drills
3. Free still Sanshou drills with a partner
4. Chi Sau (Sensitivity Training)
5. Kicking and Defending against a kick
6. Gor Sau ie structured sparring
7. Free sparring

We also practiced conditioning and strength training from simple things to pull ups, push ups, wrist rollers and some traditional stuff, As yes we practice Chi Cultivation too. In our system there are forms of Chi Kung.

How Ever the key was fighting Non-Wing Chunners. We would spar different people and learn from fighting others how to use our WC. What worked and what didn't worked. How to move. Standing still like your doing a First form will not work against an active and mobile opponent. Moving around with out intent or purpose won't work well against a counter fighter.

A teacher can teach you fight theory but you learn fighting by actually fighting. Same With the WC form. I can teach you Sim Lien Tao. But you will only learn it by doing it! Same goes with fighting. Until you fight you won't know to fight.
 

Dominic82555

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I've seen a lot of videos of WC vs WC and WC vs other martial arts and what quickly catches my attention (now school me if I'm wrong). WC vs WC, all I see is front kick followed by chain punching and attempted take downs. Now where's all the other techniques that come with the system????? Now, with that said WC vs other martial arts I believe is at a severe disadvantage with those gloves on and once again there's the front kick chain punching. Is this a training flaw? Let me add this last observation: Do WC practitioners need to participate in tournaments (ie if you're gloved and there's no punches to the face, how do you handle someone like a kyokushin fighter? If basically your target is body mass, you can forget it because they train to pound their bodies day in and day out were as maybe WC students need to had that kind of physical regimen to their training. Idk
 

geezer

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That article accurately points out that, as far as TCMA go, Wing Chun is especially well adapted for training stand-up fighting in very tight quarters. Also the author correctly notes that the way Wing Chun is often taught and practiced neglects certain necessary aspects of fighting such as physical conditioning and sparring against diversely trained, resisting opponents. He further notes that Wing Chun can be effectively augmented by the addition of other methods that address it's weaknesses.

Excuse me, but isn't all that pretty obvious? The rest of what the author has to say about Wing Chun being exclusively developed to practice on the Red Boats strikes me as pure speculation, and as equally unlikely as all the other origin stories used by various WC lineages ...and by other TCMA.

In short, I see a lot of sweeping generalizations and an effort to replace dubious history with more dubious history. ;)
 

geezer

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...Wing Chun cannot produce fighters:

1. Yip Man was a fraud without idea about fighting
2. WC become (mostly) a cult:

Im traveling and on my phone with a messed up keyboard so I wont say much now, but the articles referenced have a bit of truth mixed with a lot of over-the-top mis-information and more than a little axe-grinding. My question is: What are you selling?
 
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drop bear

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I've seen a lot of videos of WC vs WC and WC vs other martial arts and what quickly catches my attention (now school me if I'm wrong). WC vs WC, all I see is front kick followed by chain punching and attempted take downs. Now where's all the other techniques that come with the system????? Now, with that said WC vs other martial arts I believe is at a severe disadvantage with those gloves on and once again there's the front kick chain punching. Is this a training flaw? Let me add this last observation: Do WC practitioners need to participate in tournaments (ie if you're gloved and there's no punches to the face, how do you handle someone like a kyokushin fighter? If basically your target is body mass, you can forget it because they train to pound their bodies day in and day out were as maybe WC students need to had that kind of physical regimen to their training. Idk

There are boxers who use wing chun principles fine with gloves on

You get a guy like lomenchenco and he is miles ahead in the application of wing chun principles.
 

Poppity

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Personally i think those two articles below and 1 above can explain why contemporary WC cannot produce fighters:
1. Yip Man was a fraud without idea about fighting: Penglai Martial Arts : Yip Man a master or something else
2. WC become (mostly) a cult: Penglai Martial Arts : Wing Chun ,martial art or religion

Holy sh** balls batman! I don't know where to start with these articles. They are utterly riddled with inaccuracies to the point of being suspiciously misleading.

With the internet so full of armchair experts waving their "correct" opinions about, I am not often surprised by new conspriacies... But.... can I ask you to supply maybe some checkable references of documents and maybe perhaps a book or too for this rather unique history... I'm just saying Ben judkins managed to do so when he wrote a book
 

geezer

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But.... can I ask you to supply maybe some checkable references of documents and maybe perhaps a book or too for this rather unique history.

I suspect that Cynic75 was the author of those articles, or perhaps a student of the same, seeking free publicity. I doubt that he will return or that he is interested in engaging in open discussion.
 

geezer

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You get a guy like lomenchenco and he is miles ahead in the application of wing chun principles.
There are a few coaches out there that understand this and are consciously working to bring WC into the 21st Century. I wish them luck.
 

Poppity

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I think I saw the same guy on a different forum perhaps with a different username but startling similarities in content promoting the same articles, claiming Ip man was an opium addict and his family were international drug smugglers
 

drop bear

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There are a few coaches out there that understand this and are consciously working to bring WC into the 21st Century. I wish them luck.

Yeh. The more they do it. The more successful they will be. And the weird excuses will start to loose credibility.

And there are more chun meet ups that are slowly gaining ground.
 

Cynik75

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geezer said:
I suspect that Cynic75 was the author of those articles, or perhaps a student of the same, seeking free publicity. I doubt that he will return or that he is interested in engaging in open discussion.
No I am not. WC is for me an object of fascination - something so popular and so useless with so much selfpromotion as a superefficient martial art. I am trying to find where and when WC lost its fighting ability. Those articles I linked above are not mine but are close to my own thoughts about this issue. The more I know about old bare knuckle styles (asian and european) the more I realize that Yip Man did not understand WC and had no idea about fighting. He (probably) known only part of system - auxiliary exercises (equivalent of wrestling or bjj solo/pair drills), and made them the main part of his style.
And now few WC practitioners who care about real fighting skills have to fill the post Yip Man gaps in system - I really like Mark Philips' stuff, less Alan Orr 's (in my opinion he completely lost "WC spirit" and does typical MMA - its ok, but it is not WC).
 
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APL76

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claiming Ip man was an opium addict and his family were international drug smugglers

I thought it was pretty uncontroversial that Yip Man's father was the captain of an opium boat? It didn't quite have the stigma that sort of thing has now. And didn't his dad's job doing that have something to do with a mob burning down their house leading to them shacking up with Yuen Kay San's family for a while.

While I think that the guy who wrote the blogs had some reasonable points I also think that he had a fair bit wrong too. I think his assessment of Yip Man's wing chun, while kinda on the right track is a little too pessimistic. And some of the things he is "refuting" are off from the getgo. For example, claiming that Yip Man breaking the gun is nonsense because it would be impossible for a person to break a gun like that; ergo: Yip Man being full of crap. The story I heard, from my Sifu, who heard it from Yip Chun, Yip Man didn't break the gun, he snatched it out of the guy's hand.

The author of the blog also talks about Yuen Kay San being an opium addict. According to what my Sifu has said, as Sum Nung explained to him, Yuen Kay San was never an opium addict.

As far as Yip Man's fighting ability goes??? In my opinion he would certainly not have been anywhere near the league of Yuen Kay San or Sum Nung (I know that that will be an unacceptable proposition to most wing chun people as they mostly descend from Yip Man), having said that though, but he undoubtedly gained himself a reputation in Fat San prior to his move to HK.

There are large inconsistencies in where he got his wing chun from, the Leung Bik story is dubious to say the least. But he still got a reputation as having some ability.
 

Poppity

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I thought it was pretty uncontroversial that Yip Man's father was the captain of an opium boat? It didn't quite have the stigma that sort of thing has now. And didn't his dad's job doing that have something to do with a mob burning down their house leading to them shacking up with Yuen Kay San's family for a while.

While I think that the guy who wrote the blogs had some reasonable points I also think that he had a fair bit wrong too. I think his assessment of Yip Man's wing chun, while kinda on the right track is a little too pessimistic. And some of the things he is "refuting" are off from the getgo. For example, claiming that Yip Man breaking the gun is nonsense because it would be impossible for a person to break a gun like that; ergo: Yip Man being full of crap. The story I heard, from my Sifu, who heard it from Yip Chun, Yip Man didn't break the gun, he snatched it out of the guy's hand.

The author of the blog also talks about Yuen Kay San being an opium addict. According to what my Sifu has said, as Sum Nung explained to him, Yuen Kay San was never an opium addict.

As far as Yip Man's fighting ability goes??? In my opinion he would certainly not have been anywhere near the league of Yuen Kay San or Sum Nung (I know that that will be an unacceptable proposition to most wing chun people as they mostly descend from Yip Man), having said that though, but he undoubtedly gained himself a reputation in Fat San prior to his move to HK.

There are large inconsistencies in where he got his wing chun from, the Leung Bik story is dubious to say the least. But he still got a reputation as having some ability.
I would be very grateful if you might provide some credible references from perhaps ip man's surviving family or historical documentation that Ip man's father was a drugs runner. I am imagining that there is not any...what with it being criminal activity.. And you may perhaps see a similarity with someone else saying. I thought it was established fact (through heresay) that yuen Kay san was on the dope.

I dont mean to be rude but I do strongly feel that giving credence to such rumours without knowing the source seems a common issue in wing chun and perhaps more generally, and is why so many people often choose their own origin or lineage story....

I also see little point in speculations about who was the best or worst fighter out of deceased martial artists. The truth is, no one knows how good they were unless they fought them. It is similar to my friend who claims he would have beaten Mohammed Ali in his heyday, it's just that he didn't want to.
 

geezer

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No I am not. WC is for me an object of fascination - something so popular and so useless with so much selfpromotion as a superefficient martial art. I am trying to find where and when WC lost its fighting ability. Those articles I linked above are not mine but are close to my own thoughts about this issue. The more I know about old bare knuckle styles (asian and european) the more I realize that Yip Man did not understand WC and had no idea about fighting. He (probably) known only part of system - auxiliary exercises (equivalent of wrestling or bjj solo/pair drills), and made them the main part of his style.
And now few WC practitioners who care about real fighting skills have to fill the post Yip Man gaps in system - I really like Mark Philips' stuff, less Alan Orr 's (in my opinion he completely lost "WC spirit" and does typical MMA - its ok, but it is not WC).

Cynik75, you and APL76 are really off track if you believe contemporary Wing Chun's failure to produce effective competitive fighters can be blamed on Yip Man. Whether or not Yip Man was a great fighter and great teacher or, as Cynik seems to imply, a second rate practitioner, he ended up being the reason why Wing Chun became known world wide. His, and all the other WC lineages, would be mere oddities known only to scholars of Chinese folk-boxing had it not been for Yip Man and his first generation of students.

That first generation of students BTW, had some fighters who played with and tested what they where taught. And they developed street cred in 1950s-'60s Hong Kong. Nothing on the level of modern, professional MMA bouts, but it was real testing of their technique. That's is what's been lost.

As far as today's Wing Chun "losing it's fighting ability" ...this is an issue with all the traditional branches of Wing Chun and pretty much all TCMA as well. It has nothing to do with Yip Man's knowledge, ability, or lack thereof. It is a problem endemic to TCMA and has everything to do with the cultish over-emphasis on complex, quasi-magical "systems" believed to confer superiority, and the corresponding lack of sparring against diverse, resisting opponents, and frequent testing in open, competitive bouts.

In short, don't blame Yip Man alone for why TCMA, including Wing Chun, is not as effective as it claims to be. Look at your own lineage and tell me how it has addressed these problems, if indeed it has!

BTW regarding stories about Yip Man's character, his opium use and his father's purported involvement in the opium trade ...well that was very long ago. Those were different times in a very different culture, and regardless, none of that has any bearing on the question at hand ...except that, in the history of the Chinese Martial Arts (at least according to my old Chinese sifu and also scholars like Robert W. Smith and Ben Judkins) the triads and other criminal groups where some of the most avid practitioners of practical and effective martial arts ...for obvious reasons!

So, although I do not agree with all the accusations against Yip Man's character made in prior posts, ironically linking Yip Man (or any other master of those days) with criminal activity might be taken as a back-handed endorsement. Food for thought. ;)
 
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