Saving Wing Chun by Eliminating Chi Sau

TSDTexan

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.


Goju Ryu which is an authentic Okinawan Karate has sticky hands. exhibit A. As a mainstream flavor or brand of Karate, it may not be as widespread as Shotokan... but it shows that something besides WC utilizes Sticky Hands.
Which responds your question about "why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?"

Now, not all brands karate is created or practiced equally but Goju has been used in the streets for self defense, and some number of gojuka have competed in the All Okinawa Full Contact and done quite well.


A good breakdown of the sticky hands in Karate...
found here.

Ryukyu Martial Arts: Crossing Hands in Okinawan Martial Arts

And here is a screenshot showing Kyokushin guys in Brazil practicing Kakie or pushing/sticking hands... which is a brand of karate that is no joke.
Screenshot_20190901-132304_Chrome.jpg
 
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Anarax

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Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?
The skills that chi sau is meant to develop are important for martial artists especially WC practitioners.

If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?
There are multiple arts that train sensitivity/tells through contact, they only have different methods to train such.

For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?
I think your comment "then why act like it is" hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately there are many practitioners that want to "win" at chi sau opposed to develop the skill sets it's meant to train. I've had more than a few training partners that miss the point of chi sau and try to treat it as an opportunity to stroke their ego. People with this mentality don't usually do well in sparring for they haven't developed the skills that are utilized in sparring.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If WC sticky hand can go into this level, the WC system has already moved from a striking art into a throwing art.

IMO, a training like this should exist in all MA systems.

 

Snark

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I think sticky techniques exist in all martial arts, bjj applies a lot of sticky body.

I do agree that wing chun has overemphasized the importance of chi sau to the point that it has harmed the application of the style. I can't help but feel that this arose from the general practice of "touch hands if you want to know how good they are" and some people going well I will just specialise in touching hands so other people will think I'm a Don.

Its a bit like a driving examiner looking to how well a candidate finds the clutch biting point as a quick insight into their driving ability, so lots of schools open teaching this ability, on hills, in traffic etc. but neglecting to teach the studetns how to actually drive.
 

geezer

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I think sticky techniques exist in all martial arts, bjj applies a lot of sticky body.

I do agree that wing chun has overemphasized the importance of chi sau to the point that it has harmed the application of the style. I can't help but feel that this arose from the general practice of "touch hands if you want to know how good they are" and some people going well I will just specialise in touching hands so other people will think I'm a Don.

Its a bit like a driving examiner looking to how well a candidate finds the clutch biting point as a quick insight into their driving ability, so lots of schools open teaching this ability, on hills, in traffic etc. but neglecting to teach the studetns how to actually drive.

Interesting analogies. BTW apparently I am a Don.

Just ask Juan, my yard guy. He always calls me "Don" ...or sometimes Don Esteban. I asked him why, and he said, "Primero porque Ud. es el jefe que me paga, y además Ud. me parece bastante viejo. Ja ja ja ja ja...." --Basically because I'm the boss and I´m old. :(

Now tell me. where you come from they test people on driving a clutch? Out here most youngsters hardly know what a clutch is. I had a heck of a time this summer selling my old car with a manual transmission.
 

Snark

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Respects to you and your family Don Geezer... And belated happy birthday wishes.

The clutch analogy is more of an indicator of ability, back from my dad's heavy sighing and rolling of the eyes when teaching me to drive. With me first forcefully over revving the engine without engaging the clutch (aggresively going nowhere) or gently accelerating so slowly Christmas repeatedly passed us by.

I really enjoy driving manual, but typically, I drive an automatic now.
 

gpseymour

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Respects to you and your family Don Geezer... And belated happy birthday wishes.

The clutch analogy is more of an indicator of ability, back from my dad's heavy sighing and rolling of the eyes when teaching me to drive. With me first forcefully over revving the engine without engaging the clutch (aggresively going nowhere) or gently accelerating so slowly Christmas repeatedly passed us by.

I really enjoy driving manual, but typically, I drive an automatic now.
Man, that takes me back to my days teaching motorcycle classes. We spent so much time getting people ready to control the clutch...
 

Snark

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Motorbikes are cool. Now I'm too old to learn to ride one as I would have to go through the humiliating process of learning on a series of hairdryers before I got to the beasts.
 

pdg

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Now tell me. where you come from they test people on driving a clutch? Out here most youngsters hardly know what a clutch is. I had a heck of a time this summer selling my old car with a manual transmission.

Automatic cars aren't really popular here, never have been.

I've been driving 25 years, owned around 40 cars and have driven auto three times. Once was for about 30 miles, once for about 150 yards, once for 10 yards. I didn't own any of those cars.

When you take your car test here, the default is manual. If you test in an auto, your licence is restricted to automatic only and you have to retest if you want to drive manual. Manual test covers all options.
 

pdg

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Motorbikes are cool. Now I'm too old to learn to ride one as I would have to go through the humiliating process of learning on a series of hairdryers before I got to the beasts.

Over 21s are spared the pootler stage here, can do 'direct access' on something like a 600.
 

Snark

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Over 21s are spared the pootler stage here, can do 'direct access' on something like a 600.

Watcha fella, i am a fellow Brit. I checked the RAC calculator which seems to suggest that after passing the CBT I would need to own a bike license for 2 years before being able to ride anything over a 125cc. Admittedly having never learnt I am only assuming this to be correct. Cheers
 

Flying Crane

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My car has nothing automatic. Not transmission, not windows, not locks, no internet connection, no cell phone connection, barely a working radio with a CD player. But it does have power steering and power brakes. 2003 Pontiac Vibe, base model. Closing in on 200,000 miles.
 

geezer

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Automatic cars aren't really popular here, never have been.

I like that. Here in the States, most models and makes aren't even available in a manual transmission version, or at least would require a special order. Other things like electric windows are on pretty much all cars. Some years back, my brother tried to special order a Tacoma pickup with manual (crank up) windows and found it really a pain, and that it would cost him a lot more than the deal he could get on one with the standard electric windows.

I guess the car companies and dealers make their profits when the power windows wear out and you have to get the motor or electric parts replaced.

Now I'm not sure how this relates to chi-sau, but there's probably a connection. :)

OK, how about this. When I drive a manual transmission, I get a better feel for the what
is happening with the car and the road. Basically I have a better tactile sense for how the vehicle is handling, from the power train to the traction of the tires. Like the connection chi-sau gives you with your training partner, you develop a physical sensitivity to what's going on with your car that you can't get with an automatic.
 
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Flying Crane

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I like that. Here in the States, most models and makes aren't even available in a manual transmission version, or at least would require a special order. Other things like electric windows are on pretty much all cars. Some years back, my brother tried to special order a Tacoma pickup with manual (crank up) windows and found it really a pain, and that it would cost him a lot more than the deal he could get on one with the standard electric windows.

I guess the car companies and dealers make their profits when the power windows wear out and you have to get the motor or electric parts replaced.

Now I'm not sure how this relates to chi-sau, but there's probably a connection. :)

OK, how about this. When I drive a manual transmission, I get a better feel for the what
is happening with the car and the road. Basically I have a better tactile sense for how the vehicle is handling, from the power train to the traction of the tires. Like the connection chi-sau gives you with your training partner, you develop a physical sensitivity to what's going on with your car that you can't get with an automatic.
It does suck however, when you need to replace a clutch. That is something that typically happens a lot more than replacing a transmission on an automatic.
 

MetalBoar

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I like that. Here in the States, most models and makes aren't even available in a manual transmission version, or at least would require a special order. Other things like electric windows are on pretty much all cars. Some years back, my brother tried to special order a Tacoma pickup with manual (crank up) windows and found it really a pain, and that it would cost him a lot more than the deal he could get on one with the standard electric windows.

I guess the car companies and dealers make their profits when the power windows wear out and you have to get the motor or electric parts replaced.

Now I'm not sure how this relates to chi-sau, but there's probably a connection. :)

OK, how about this. When I drive a manual transmission, I get a better feel for the what
is happening with the car and the road. Basically I have a better tactile sense for how the vehicle is handling, from the power train to the traction of the tires. Like the connection chi-sau gives you with your training partner, you develop a physical sensitivity to what's going on with your car that you can't get with an automatic.
My current car is a manual and most of the other cars I've owned over my life have been too. Still, if I were to buy new car today it would be an auto. The traffic here in Seattle is so bad that my driving experience most of the time seems to be; let the clutch out, roll 5-10 yards, push the clutch in, stop, wait, let the clutch out, roll 5-10 feet, push the clutch in, stop, let the clutch out, no, no, back in, back in! brake! - STOP! wash, rinse, repeat for about 90 minutes. Now if I move back to Arizona, which I'm considering, my opinion might change, but the only thing I'm developing here by driving a manual is how to control my road rage.
 

gpseymour

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My current car is a manual and most of the other cars I've owned over my life have been too. Still, if I were to buy new car today it would be an auto. The traffic here in Seattle is so bad that my driving experience most of the time seems to be; let the clutch out, roll 5-10 yards, push the clutch in, stop, wait, let the clutch out, roll 5-10 feet, push the clutch in, stop, let the clutch out, no, no, back in, back in! brake! - STOP! wash, rinse, repeat for about 90 minutes. Now if I move back to Arizona, which I'm considering, my opinion might change, but the only thing I'm developing here by driving a manual is how to control my road rage.
I normally much prefer to drive a manual, but in traffic I start to hate them - especially on a motorcycle. Man, I remember my clutch hand getting so sore when stuck in accident traffic. I won't personally own a car I can't easily change gears on, so even with an automatic, I look for a decent auto-stick.
 

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Hoping my next car is full electric. I had a Nissan Leaf on lease, but gave it back when the lease ended. I liked it a lot, but the range was not yet what it needs to be. The technology is getting to the point where it makes sense to own one now, with the new generations of electric vehicles.
 

pdg

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Watcha fella, i am a fellow Brit. I checked the RAC calculator which seems to suggest that after passing the CBT I would need to own a bike license for 2 years before being able to ride anything over a 125cc. Admittedly having never learnt I am only assuming this to be correct. Cheers

I got the 21 bit wrong, it's 24...

But, if over 24, you do CBT on a sub 125 (which is usually less than a day course), then take the theory, then mod1&2 practical tests on any bike up to 46bhp, like a restricted 900 my local training centre has.

No minimum time in grade ;) some places do the whole lot in like 3 days. If you can handle a bike.



That 2 year thing is if you're 17-23 and do mod1&2 on a 125, then you can claim a full licence - I think.

DA was introduced specifically to allow older people to avoid pootling for 2 years.
 

pdg

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It does suck however, when you need to replace a clutch. That is something that typically happens a lot more than replacing a transmission on an automatic.

A lot more is a bit strong ;)

I'd hazard that most cars these days never need a clutch replacement.

Some of it depends how it's driven of course.
 

pdg

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especially on a motorcycle. Man, I remember my clutch hand getting so sore when stuck in accident traffic.

Filtering (lane splitting) isn't a legal thing in most places over there is it?

From the highway code, last bit bolded by me ;):

Rule 151
In slow-moving traffic. You should:

  • reduce the distance between you and the vehicle ahead to maintain traffic flow
  • never get so close to the vehicle in front that you cannot stop safely
  • leave enough space to be able to manoeuvre if the vehicle in front breaks down or an emergency vehicle needs to get past
  • not change lanes to the left to overtake
  • allow access into and from side roads, as blocking these will add to congestion
  • be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side
 
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