Saving Wing Chun by Eliminating Chi Sau

Nobody Important

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.
 

Highlander

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Wing Tsun is a very internal system. The Chi Sao is a important exercise to train relaxation and body unity when under pressure. However I agree it's given entirely too much credit. Dumping hundreds of hours into chi sao wont help you, if you dont pull the concepts out and practice them in different ways I.E. more realistic ways. BUT I think that removing chi sao would be the same as removing siu nim tao
 

Martial D

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.
Chi sau is just a drill for building sensitivity while maintaining contact. As an MMA guy with deep roots in WC, I can definitely say it's helped my clinch and ground game.

Have you even done it for ten seconds of your life?
 

Danny T

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Wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, many of the FMAs, and other fighting arts have some form of chi sao or arm entanglement drill.
Chi Sao isnt the problem. Teaching and practicing chi sao as a highest level of fighting and using it, as a litmus test for fighting skill is the problem.
Imagine if wrestlings litmus test was pummeling drills or muay thais was their clinch counter for counter drills, or the FMAs sagang labo or hubud lubud drills.
Chi Sao along with its many different aspects is a very important piece of training but it is not an indication of any individuals fighting skill.
I see it often with many in their first and second fights at mma events. In the back warming up their padwork is great; sharp punches, powerful kicks, or their pummeling and grappling drills are relaxed and smooth but when they get into the arena and get hit hard or kicked hard the adrenaline hits them and all that good looking drill skill leaves.
Drilling Is Not Fighting it is drilling.
Chi Sao is a drill and while pieces of it will be used in fighting, Chi Sao itself is not fighting.
 

Xue Sheng

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.

Let see, Chi Sau isn't for fighting so illuminate it...ok.....so with that approach might as well get rid of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, and Biu Ji宇hose are forms, and not really for fighting either. May or may not keep the Muk Yan Jong, but then you are hitting it and it is not hitting back so that may or may not be fighting...so what's left of Wing Chun...the pole and knives...which are also pretty much useless these days so get rid of those too...now what...Wing Chun is....what......Oh I know, take Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu....... they don't have Chi Sau....but they don't have the Muk Yn Jong either.....but then that may or may not be important...... IMHO, Chi Sau is an important part of Wing Chun training....if done, and trained, correctly....key word there being "correctly".

If something in a style really annoys someone then either suck it up butter cup and deal with it and take the rest with it or move on to another style with things less annoying to them. Change their style of choice, don't change the style to fit themselves.

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?
To make it work correctly, like Wing Chun is supposed to

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

If Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and Jujutsu are so effective, why don't they use them on the battlefield, why not just give it up and go for knife and gun training.

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Because it is part of learning how to fight using Wing Chun because it is not Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling or Jujutsu


Want to fight like they do in Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling or Jujutsu...then go train them.
 
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Martial D

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Wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, many of the FMAs, and other fighting arts have some form of chi sao or arm entanglement drill.
Chi Sao isnt the problem. Teaching and practicing chi sao as a highest level of fighting and using it, as a litmus test for fighting skill is the problem.
Imagine if wrestlings litmus test was pummeling drills or muay thais was their clinch counter for counter drills, or the FMAs sagang labo or hubud lubud drills.
Chi Sao along with its many different aspects is a very important piece of training but it is not an indication of any individuals fighting skill.
I see it often with many in their first and second fights at mma events. In the back warming up their padwork is great; sharp punches, powerful kicks, or their pummeling and grappling drills are relaxed and smooth but when they get into the arena and get hit hard or kicked hard the adrenaline hits them and all that good looking drill skill leaves.
Drilling Is Not Fighting it is drilling.
Chi Sao is a drill and while pieces of it will be used in fighting, Chi Sao itself is not fighting.

I'm not sure many people say it is. Even the 'wing chun is too deadly for the cage because it's for the streetz!' crowd will generally admit chi sau is not fighting.

However, it can get pretty competitive,
 

yak sao

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Just like there are different intensities of sparring, chi sau is done at different intensities as well...at least it should be.

I think this video is a good indication that chi sau is an effective means for increasing fighting skills.

 

Martial D

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Just like there are different intensities of sparring, chi sau is done at different intensities as well...at least it should be.

I think this video is a good indication that chi sau is an effective means for increasing fighting skills.

Hey look who's back. Hiatus fin?
 

yak sao

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Actually I check a quite a bit, but WC Forum has been deader than a doornail
 

Flying Crane

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.
Ive never been aware of any of these issues that you bring up. I guess the problem is already solved.

Next...
 

geezer

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.

Am I alone in liking your deliberately provocative post? It certainly elicited some good responses. Here are my answers, in the order of the questions you posed:

1. Yeah, I think chi-sau training in a balanced curriculum including basics, forms, paired drills, and the oft neglected areas of conditioning and sparring is very important to developing the practical side of WC skill.

2. As Danny pointed out, other close range arts do indeed have contact training methods that can be compared to chi-sau. In other striking arts you can see this to a degree in clinch work and this is especially true of grappling arts. Some grappling drills are almost like full body chi-sau.

3. I agree that it is a mistake to approach chi-sau as "fighting". Sometimes it can be done as a form of controlled sparring, but it requires a high level of restraint, control, and a certain amount of cooperation by both participants or it quickly degenerates into crude sparring that is nothing like what chi-sau is supposed to be.

I also believe that chi-sau is often mis-characterized and given undue weight in training in WC schools that do not spar or fight, and hold that chi-sau is all the sparring you ever need to do. There is nothing wrong with seldom sparring and doing a lot of chi-sau because that is what you enjoy doing ...if you are being honest with yourself. There is everything wrong with fooling yourself into thinking that chi-sau is all you need to become an effective fighter.
 
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Nobody Important

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Am I alone in liking your deliberately provocative post? It certainly elicited some good responses. Here are my answers, in the order of the questions you posed:

1. Yeah, I think chi-sau training in a balanced curriculum including basics, forms, paired drills, and the oft neglected areas of conditioning and sparring is very important to developing the practical side of WC skill.

2. As Danny pointed out, other close range arts do indeed have contact training methods that can be compared to chi-sau. In other striking arts you can see this to a degree in clinch work and this is especially true of grappling arts. Some grappling drills are almost like full body chi-sau.

3. I agree that it is a mistake to approach chi-sau as "fighting". Sometimes it can be done as a form of controlled sparring, but it requires a high level of restraint, control, and a certain amount of cooperation by both participants or it quickly degenerates into crude sparring that is nothing like what chi-sau is supposed to be.

I also believe that chi-sau is often mis-characterized and given undue weight in training in WC schools that do not spar or fight, and hold that chi-sau is all the sparring you ever need to do. There is nothing wrong with seldom sparring and doing a lot of chi-sau because that is what you enjoy doing ...if you are being honest with yourself. There is everything wrong with fooling yourself into thinking that chi-sau is all you need to become an effective fighter.
I tried to liven things up a little bit for ya Steve, but unfortunately my troll post didn't illicit too much vitriol, lol. I don't want to stir too much sh!t cause then I'd have to lick the spoon! But hopefully this post will generate some thought and different perspective into what TMA's can do to remain relevant in today's "prove it" society. Good response to the post BTW.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The Taiji system has the same concern too - to assume that arm contact will be given to you for free.


Instead of taking WC sticky hands out, some extra training should be added in. After the WC sticky hands and before the sparring, another training should be added in.

Why some MA systems don't have this kind of training - establish contact from far distance? IMO, "how to establish that contact" (not assume that contact will give to you for free) is very important.


 
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Flying Crane

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The Taiji system has the same concern too - to assume that arm contact will be given to you for free.


Instead of taking WC sticky hands out, some extra training should be added in. After the WC sticky hands and before the sparring, another training should be added in.

Why some MA systems don't have this kind of training - establish contact from far distance? IMO, "how to establish that contact" (not assume that contact will give to you for free) is very important.


Nobody assumes arm contact is given for free. But I know that you know this.

Push hands, like chi sai, is a drill. Nothing more, nothing less.

But you know this as well.
 

yak sao

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The Taiji system has the same concern too - to assume that arm contact will be given to you for free.


Instead of taking WC sticky hands out, some extra training should be added in. After the WC sticky hands and before the sparring, another training should be added in.

Why some MA systems don't have this kind of training - establish contact from far distance? IMO, "how to establish that contact" (not assume that contact will give to you for free) is very important.

You're right . If you're not able to bridge the distance and get in close where you can wreak havoc on your opponent, or worse, get knocked out before you can move inside, then all of this chi sau training becomes nothing more than glorified exercise.

In our lineage we train drills known as lat sau, which are drills we do to train what to do when you're not necessarily in contact with your opponent's arms.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What's missing in the WC sticky hand training is

- you try to make your arm to touch my arm, but
- I try not to let your arm to touch my arm.

This is why I always like to use a

- clockwise downward parry followed by
- counter-clockwise upward arm wrap.

When my opponent tries to rotate his arm the same direction as my arm and try to avoid contact, if I reverse my arm rotation, I can contact his arm easily.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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In our lineage we train drills known as lat sau, which are drills we do to train what to do when you're not necessarily in contact with your opponent's arms.
I don't understand why the WC system doesn't emphasize on this training. IMO, this training has much more value than the WC sticky hand training.

 

Xue Sheng

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The Taiji system has the same concern too - to assume that arm contact will be given to you for free.


Instead of taking WC sticky hands out, some extra training should be added in. After the WC sticky hands and before the sparring, another training should be added in.

Why some MA systems don't have this kind of training - establish contact from far distance? IMO, "how to establish that contact" (not assume that contact will give to you for free) is very important.



I will post nothing after this about your view of taiji other than; obviously you never did, or trained push hands with my shifu..... later
 
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