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KPM

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^^^^^ I don't think many here have followed your argument. Perhaps it is because of your presentation? Why don't you try stating it in different terms?
 

guy b

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^^^^^ I don't think many here have followed your argument. Perhaps it is because of your presentation? Why don't you try stating it in different terms?

I don't think it is worth the effort. It is there if anyone is interested
 
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I don't think it is worth the effort. It is there if anyone is interested

Why not? You've made quite the effort posting in 1/2 dozen other threads! Try actually carrying on a friendly discussion without insulting everyone else involved for a change and see what happens. Really! Try it! You might like it! ;):dead:
 

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Why not? You've made quite the effort posting in 1/2 dozen other threads! Try actually carrying on a friendly discussion without insulting everyone else involved for a change and see what happens. Really! Try it! You might like it! ;):dead:

Why would I volunteer to be trolled?
 
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Why would I volunteer to be trolled?

You certainly volunteer to stir up trouble in multiple threads. So what's the difference? If you actually engaged in a friendly discussion, everyone might benefit.
 

guy b

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You certainly volunteer to stir up trouble in multiple threads. So what's the difference? If you actually engaged in a friendly discussion, everyone might benefit.

I am not feeling unfriendly towards anyone. I think trouble generally comes from misunderstanding, of which there is a lot. Posts need to be short in such cases because longer posts lead to more misunderstanding. Even the most simple points are generally ignored or misunderstood, I think because of a desperate desire not to agree. That isn't something I can help really- others control their own perception
 

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I am not feeling unfriendly towards anyone. I think trouble generally comes from misunderstanding, of which there is a lot. Posts need to be short in such cases because longer posts lead to more misunderstanding. Even the most simple points are generally ignored or misunderstood, I think because of a desperate desire not to agree. That isn't something I can help really- others control their own perception
No, a shorter post is not necessarily clearer. Elaborating on a point, assuming the other person has a different understanding than you, will be much clearer to all involved. Most of us here actually like to find both people we agree with (validation, someone to discuss similar philosophies with, etc.) and people we don't agree with (new information, identifying gaps in our approach, better understanding different views, etc.).

Look for discussions with me and Drop Bear or me and Steve. We differ drastically on some points, and argue freely about them. On other points, we agree well. I've learned from both types of discussions with them, and have a better understanding of what others gain from styles like theirs, and why they choose them.

Your posts just generally display a disagreement without explaining your viewpoint enough for anyone to determine if there's a real disagreement or just a different vocabulary (which happens rather a lot).
 
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Gerry Seymour

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A reasoned argument in terms of probability has been presented in this thread and also in several other threads. It isn't my fault if you are incapable of perceiving the argument.
Actually, in terms of communication, it's precisely the fault of the one delivering the message if the receiver can't understand it.
 

guy b

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Actually, in terms of communication, it's precisely the fault of the one delivering the message if the receiver can't understand it.

I can't be bothered going through it again. It isn't really important unless you are interested, in which case it is there
 

Gerry Seymour

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I can't be bothered going through it again. It isn't really important unless you are interested, in which case it is there
Except that people have already stated that it didn't make sense to them. Which means your communication was unsuccessful. The attitude displayed in this post is "I don't care if you understand or not." If that's true, I can't imagine why you'd bother to post.
 

guy b

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Except that people have already stated that it didn't make sense to them. Which means your communication was unsuccessful. The attitude displayed in this post is "I don't care if you understand or not." If that's true, I can't imagine why you'd bother to post.

You can PM me if you want me to try and explain further
 

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You can PM me if you want me to try and explain further
Nobody else gets to read that - this is a forum, and part of the value is the open discussion and ability to refer back to past discussions for clarification.
 

wingchun100

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Actually, in terms of communication, it's precisely the fault of the one delivering the message if the receiver can't understand it.


Not sure I agree with that 100%. Let's face it: there are some people out there who are dumber than a box of rocks. There is responsibility on both giving and receiving end when it comes to understanding.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Not sure I agree with that 100%. Let's face it: there are some people out there who are dumber than a box of rocks. There is responsibility on both giving and receiving end when it comes to understanding.
Oh, agreed, but there's a principle of communication involved. It's a point I make when teaching communication seminars. You can't control the other person, so if they don't understand, you first assume it's a problem with your transmission. Only after you've confirmed the transmission quality (in a forum, that means others aren't generally having trouble understanding), can you safely conclude the problem is on the receiving side.
 
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guy b

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Hence the problems you encounter here over and over again.

I have learned from typing pages and pages of explanation that it usually donesn't make any difference. In fact I think it might have been conversing with you KPM that led me to adopt a more abbreviated style.

As it happens I don't find it a problem if you don't understand something. If you wish to understand then you will need to make more of an effort. But you don't wish to understand really, so here we are
 
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geezer

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I have learned from typing pages and pages of explanation that it usually donesn't make any difference.

I quite agree with Guy here. I really don't think it would benefit anybody if he were to type out his views on VT yet again. Hearing it again isn't going to persuade me, and I doubt that it will reach many others either.

Honestly, It's like trying to engage in civil discussion with the street corner evangelists thumping their bibles and telling me that I'm on the road to perdition. I'm not an easy convert, and they certainly aren't interested in my outlook!​
 

guy b

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Nobody else gets to read that - this is a forum, and part of the value is the open discussion and ability to refer back to past discussions for clarification.

It's right here in this thread, and several others.

Tell you what, ask me a question about what you don't understand and I will do my best to help
 

Juany118

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I quite agree with Guy here. I really don't think it would benefit anybody if he were to type out his views on VT yet again. Hearing it again isn't going to persuade me, and I doubt that it will reach many others either.

Honestly, It's like trying to engage in civil discussion with the street corner evangelists thumping their bibles and telling me that I'm on the road to perdition. I'm not an easy convert, and they certainly aren't interested in my outlook!​
Beyond that, even when he has gone into lengthy descriptions, it's ephemeral. For the most part it end ups being platitudes and what amounts to something similar to talking to a pseudo-intellectual college student trying to sound knowledgeable about philosophy.

I don't know if it's because he is like the person he describes elsewhere, the person who can practice VT without understanding it because understanding is only necessary to teach, or because he has learned from experience what the weak points of his argument are and so has replaced them with the MA version of psycho-babel.
 

guy b

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It's neither of these Juany. I recommend that you put me on ignore and save yourself the effort of negtive emotion
 

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