Wing Chun and Chi Kung

Yoshiyahu

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What do you guys think about Wing Chun and Chi Kung. My Sifu taught me various Chi Kung exercises along with the Wing Chun. Also Sum Nung Wing Chun has a Chi Kung form that goes along with the Wing Chun. Not all Lineages have Chi Kung in their wing chun. I was woundering what you thought. Is Chi Kung useful in Wing Chun at all. I know in the three forms there are areas of Chi Kung like praying three times on each hand or (Fok Sau-Wu Sau) Three times on each hand.

So please share your opinions on Chi Kung:

Some say its totally useless and doesn't increase skill or aid in pursuit of fighting?

Others say it increase strenght and power an allows your skill to advance at quicker rate?

What do you think?
 

mook jong man

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When you say chi kung do you mean iron shirt and that sort of thing , i think as a supplement to your training it would be okay to do .
Just as long as it was only a small part and did not take up a lot of time that would be better spent practicing your Wing Chun forms , doing chi sau , sparring and power training on the pads etc .
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Well actually I wasn't pertaining to Iron Shirt in this thread. There is both Soft Chi Gung and Hard Chi Gung. I was really talking about Kidney Breathing. But Iron Body or Iron Thread or Iron wire is good subject.But thats another topic I might address later. What I mean was Chi Kung for Chi Cultivation in addition to Chi Cultivation you receive from doing Sil Lim Tao and the other two forms.You also cultivate Chi from sitting YGKYM for specific duration with your arms by your breast. There are other reasons besides Chi Cultivation to do these Chi Kung Exercises but I don't want to give too much of what my Sifu has taught me about the subject. I want to hear how others feel about it. Some Wing Chun Lineages have Chi Kung Forms to go along with Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee.

Info on a Lineage that does Chi Kung Exercises:

San hei gwai yuen(shen qi gui yuan, kidney breathing returns to source)

The exercises consist of a sequence of hei gung- (qigong, breathing work) like movements. They are typically practiced both before and after training to reenergize and revitalize the body, and to make sure healing prefaces and follows martial activity. The kidney breathing sets include exercises like yielding breath, side-to-side waist, single hoof, expanding chest, and dropping power, among others.

Here is Link to some extra Info:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_qigong.html

sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg
sequences_sanheigwaiyuen_pose.jpg


Other Links:


http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article11.htm


http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Eddie-Chong-Chi-Kung-p/ec07.htm

Please share more info on what you think?


When you say chi kung do you mean iron shirt and that sort of thing , i think as a supplement to your training it would be okay to do .
Just as long as it was only a small part and did not take up a lot of time that would be better spent practicing your Wing Chun forms , doing chi sau , sparring and power training on the pads etc .
 

Si-Je

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I think it's important to every technique in WC/WT. You need it and use it (even though folks don't always realize it) to deflect and generate power in WC/WT.
I love that stuff, and am dying to learn more!
You totally need it to enhance your sensitivity, chi sau, reflex and response time, etc.
Plus, chi's very handy in escaping holds of any kind, and defense against a more powerful opponent. It's what tips the scales, and breaks the rules of normal concepts of the limitations of self-defense.

Plus, it's nice to be able to learn to defend oneself without having to all out harm the person too. The best way to do that is to utilize chi.
But that takes a looooooong time training. And is in the forms of WC/WT just as much as the "scientific" techniques of WC.
It brings the "Art" back to Martial arts, (now that everyone seems to love the martial science mentality of fighting)
And I think it's a great way to keep people from using WC for "evil". When you return to the "source" on a regular basis, you recharge yourself, and balance yourself, enabling one to convert negative energies (i.e. anger, hate, fear, etc.) into positive energies. leaving you with a student that will most likely make the better choices when faced with true conflict.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Well Wing Chun is art for war and street fighting. The Chi back in Wing Chun will help you with this goal.

Uses for Wing Chun:

1.Someone wants to fight you in a club because they hate how you look?

2.Someone challenges you to a fight because they think their better?

3.Someone wants to beat up your spouse?

4.Someone trying to robb you or mug you?

5.Someone trying to make a name for themselves in gang by beating on a random person?

6.The Government becomes to corrupt an the people have to revolt?

7.Your in a bar or public place a fight breaks out an you have to fight your way out?

Wing Chun was not designed for peace. It design to kill and fight with. Those who designed did it with the mind set to kill and destroy those who were trying to kill them. If you use Wing Chun to attack those who are attacking you. Then you have did the right thing. Wing Chun is an aggressive art created to be cruel. Wing Chun is like fighting a man who has switch blade but you have a Seven Ring Broadsword or Dao. This is Wing Chun Vicious and Unrelenting!!!

Look at some of the Early Grandmasters like Cheung Bo, Sum Nung,Wong Shun Leung and Yip Man. They went out challenging people to fight. They were peaceful but they were also fighters. They sought to fight people an defeat people.


Wing Chun is for Fighters and street fighters.

Destroy your enemies break down their defenses an leave no prisoners!
 

Si-Je

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True.
But, with great power comes great responsibility.
I took MA to give myself every other option available before killing.

Like the tao says: (and I para-phrase)
it is better to be hurt than to hurt,
it is better to hurt than to be maimed,
it is better to maim than to kill.
it is better to kill than to be killed.

a body can be at rest and be violent,
a body can be at violence and one can still be at peace.

Besides, my mouth usually gets me in all the trouble my a** can handle! lol! somtimes more. ;)
 
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Yoshiyahu

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I totally Agree with you . My Wing Chun taught me was about being relentless and cruel. But this is for street fighting. Now a friendly chi sau or light sparring we do not hurt one another. But on the street. We attack eyeballs,nuts,knees,elbows and joints to break, the neck and head, break the nose, split the lip. hard knocks and steady blows. Kick fire from their body. Make your kicks go into their spleen or kidney.


Common Wing Chun sayings are Collasp their structure. Be ferocious when clashing. Be fast with your fist.Be forceful when applying power. Do not collide with a strong opponent; with a weak opponent use a direct frontal assault. Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once. The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques. The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power. The phoenix eye punch has no compassion. In a match do not expect any compassion. Grasping the throat is a ruthless technique. Once commenced, it cannot be stopped. Do not collide with a strong arm bridge. Get out of the way and take initiative to attack. Do not follow, force, or butt against the opponent's hands. If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent's force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him.

I also like the proverb; There is a time to heal and time kill. A time for peace and a time for war! Written in the Tanakh

This is a good saying below:
it is better to hurt than to be maimed,
it is better to maim than to kill.
it is better to kill than to be killed.


True.
But, with great power comes great responsibility.
I took MA to give myself every other option available before killing.

Like the tao says: (and I para-phrase)
it is better to be hurt than to hurt,
it is better to hurt than to be maimed,
it is better to maim than to kill.
it is better to kill than to be killed.

a body can be at rest and be violent,
a body can be at violence and one can still be at peace.

Besides, my mouth usually gets me in all the trouble my a** can handle! lol! somtimes more. ;)
 

mook jong man

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The problem is we live in the modern world , not 18th century China and if you go beyond the boundaries of what would be considered self defence there will be legal ramifications and you better make sure you got plenty of money for a good lawyer .

I know what it's like in my own country if somebody defends themself using martial arts , even if you only did three lessons of Wing Chun 20 years ago you will be considered by the court to be some sort of KUNG FU EXPERT its BS because we all know how much time ,sweat and blood needs to be devoted to become even average in Wing Chun .

So if you are caught up in a situation and the cops arrive on the scene don't go blabbing to them that you've done Wing Chun for X amount of years , just say the bloke came at me , I was scared so I put up my hand to stop him . By all means cooperate with them , but don't tell them more than they need to know .

Also don't do that thing that they always seem do in bad movies where they say " Don't come any closer I must warn you I have blackbelt in ( insert generic art here ) and I will use it .

You've just announced to any witnesses that you have martial training and the attacker will now be a little bit more wary about how he attacks you , oh he will still attack you he will just be a bit more careful about it .

You would have been better off him being nice and relaxed , thinking you were easy meat it will make your job a lot easier . I urge all Wing Chun / Wing Tsun people to practice scenario type drills , pre fight confrontation , the use of the fence and too read some of Geoff Thompsons books .
 

Si-Je

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"Who me? I'm just a little ol' gal! I could NEVA harm such a big strong man like that!"
Has always been my statement! lol!

I never advertise my skill to an a**hole that's mouthing off trying to get me riled up, hurt, insult or run off with me.

I once had a guy at the bar while I was picking up last call brace his legs on both sides of me trapping my back up against the bar. He was sitting on a stool and I was smokin' a cig.
"He said, your so cute, how about I just take you out to my car and run off with you? I'm just going to have to kidnap you." blah, blah, blah, and alot of more grotesque suggestive vernacular......"

He got up and put a hand on my arm. I took my cig and stepped into him putting it centimeters from his eyeball. Smiling I said, "how about I put my cig out in your eye right here and save us both the time and trouble?"
He got really winny and left. "Would you really do that? Oh, God!"
Bouncers oblivious as usual.
Do your business as quiet as possible, and then leave the scene.

Besides, here at home the law gives you full range to defend yourself even to the death. At home, at work, at your car. (doesn't cover clubs/malls/bars/concerts/etc. hense the need for discresion ;)
Yet if you have witness that you were attacked, then the statement you make is, "I was afraid for my life or (my spouse, kid, friend, or stranger)." And your largely covered. (don't make me look the law up again, please)
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Well, What I mean is places where you fight idoits where no one talks and no one tells. Like the Projects. or clubs on east side. etc. The only thing you have to worry about is if you shoot someone. But if you fight an kill or injure them badly an leave the scene No body is going to talk. But of course a gun has bullets. An bullets can be traced.

But hand imprints on a person's chest do not leave finger prints the cops can use. I mean i guess the person who tried to rob can try an give a description. But I mean if your in an alley or on street or in field. Its night time an he has no idea what your name is. Just he got beat down by some guy who fits the description of him an about dozen other people on the street at any given moment.

But for me there is no record I ever took Gung Fu. I speciafically had no certificates filed. I also received personal private training. The person that trained in Wing Chun also had similiar run with the law. He put seven guys in hospitial who attempted to jump him. My sifu put a hurting on those guys. Of course he is like five foot seven and the guys were way bigger than him. So it got laugh out of court...ha ha. My Sifu told me all of this and explained how to advoid jail and the police. I never say I know gung fu. If someone says how did you manage to block their blows. I say fear. If they asked about specific details I just say watching movies. Using my imaganition. I got a cousin who shot four guys dead. He was in the service. Marine i believe. These four guys tried to mug him. He claimed self defense. I also got two friends who are cops as well as a cousin who is a cop. So I know all about self defense pleas. Since I am smaller guy in build and stature. I don't think someone claiming that i beat them with karate is going to hold up in court since I never took karate.

The problem is we live in the modern world , not 18th century China and if you go beyond the boundaries of what would be considered self defence there will be legal ramifications and you better make sure you got plenty of money for a good lawyer .

I know what it's like in my own country if somebody defends themself using martial arts , even if you only did three lessons of Wing Chun 20 years ago you will be considered by the court to be some sort of KUNG FU EXPERT its BS because we all know how much time ,sweat and blood needs to be devoted to become even average in Wing Chun .

So if you are caught up in a situation and the cops arrive on the scene don't go blabbing to them that you've done Wing Chun for X amount of years , just say the bloke came at me , I was scared so I put up my hand to stop him . By all means cooperate with them , but don't tell them more than they need to know .

Also don't do that thing that they always seem do in bad movies where they say " Don't come any closer I must warn you I have blackbelt in ( insert generic art here ) and I will use it .

You've just announced to any witnesses that you have martial training and the attacker will now be a little bit more wary about how he attacks you , oh he will still attack you he will just be a bit more careful about it .

You would have been better off him being nice and relaxed , thinking you were easy meat it will make your job a lot easier . I urge all Wing Chun / Wing Tsun people to practice scenario type drills , pre fight confrontation , the use of the fence and too read some of Geoff Thompsons books .
 

mook jong man

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I'm just saying be careful and show restraint especially in places like shopping centers where there is bound to be closed circuit TV cameras , those bastards are every where at least that is the case in my country . Big brother is watching.

PS SI-JE please don't get that that Texas law thing out again , reading that was like having to read a friggin telephone book it was so long lol.
As I said at the time they do everything bigger in Texas :)
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Yea in my state in America. Alot of people especially muggers think they can box or fight. Alot of them have rap sheets of assualt, Assualt with deadly weapon, Assualt and battery etc. But nah not the malls. Usually crimes against people don't go down there. i mean the streets where fights usually happen.

I'm just saying be careful and show restraint especially in places like shopping centers where there is bound to be closed circuit TV cameras , those bastards are every where at least that is the case in my country . Big brother is watching.

PS SI-JE please don't get that that Texas law thing out again , reading that was like having to read a friggin telephone book it was so long lol.
As I said at the time they do everything bigger in Texas :)
 

Si-Je

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Out here things are really spread out, and if your walking, then your a mark.
We're walking.
Places where people are more likely to have money, is where the mugging's, and break in's, seem to be happening lately. (Like the local rich mall with Nordstroms and such) This mall has been hit frequently in the past couple of months, and getting worse. People in poor neighborhoods know that folks are all broke where they live, that's why you go to the "hoity, toity" places to rob.
As for the ghetto, better watch out, they do talk alot in the ghetto. To eachother. Don't kill someone's "cousin", they tend to get ya back. But, not much chance of the cops being called.
Anyhoo, talking and communication usually does the deed. And if not, we should all be covered.
 

Xue Sheng

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What do you guys think about Wing Chun and Chi Kung. My Sifu taught me various Chi Kung exercises along with the Wing Chun. Also Sum Nung Wing Chun has a Chi Kung form that goes along with the Wing Chun. Not all Lineages have Chi Kung in their wing chun. I was woundering what you thought. Is Chi Kung useful in Wing Chun at all. I know in the three forms there are areas of Chi Kung like praying three times on each hand or (Fok Sau-Wu Sau) Three times on each hand.

So please share your opinions on Chi Kung:

Some say its totally useless and doesn't increase skill or aid in pursuit of fighting?

Others say it increase strenght and power an allows your skill to advance at quicker rate?

What do you think?

Just about every style of CMA has some sort of Qigong (neigong and/or waigong) in it. Even police/Military sanda that denies it has qigong.

The Wing Chun I learned (ok the little bit of Wing chun I learned) appears to have it incorporated in to Sil Lim Tao
 
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Yoshiyahu

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If you study closes. All the forms have Chi Kung.

I have done extensive research on On Wing Chun and Chi Kung. Actually practicing any drills or forms really slowly in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is doing Chi Gung. Goat Clamping Stance is actually a Chi Kung stance. I saw a video somewhere of people doing Chi Kung using YGKYM. An No they weren't doing Wing Chun. Back on point Xue Sheng way to go. I love it. How you re-address the main purpose of the thread. I too have gotten off track. Thanks for putting things Back into perspective for me.

Excellent Post by the Way Xue Sheng about Chi Kung Denial. Many people seem to doubt the imporantance. A good way to work Chi Kung in your practice is to do a little before practice and after practice. Like some sports or fitness people do warm ups before practice and after practice they do cooling down exercises. Chi Kung can be done as warm up before actual practice and after practice as way to level your chi or cool you down from the intensity of Wing Chun practice. I don't know about all lineages. But my lineage practice is pretty intense. Even practicing basic punches and blocks the right way you feel hardening in your arms and fist and palms. Your body starts to harden as well. So a little Chi Kung helps to ease the fighting aptitude after practice.
 

Si-Je

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Hubbie makes me practice Si Lim Tao uber, sloooowly. I've gotten to where I can start to feel in in my hands/palms, and tummy when I do it slow now. Pretty cool.
Did some ki stuff in Tang Soo Do as a kid, and alot of meditation. It was fun to play with the "rubber" feeling between your two palms after breathing.

I'm trying to keep my foreward "chi" force going into hubbie when doing chi sau. For some reason I get scattered and it pretty consistantly shoots off the the left. (why, the left? don't know!) Probably need to work on pivoting more when his pressure gets too great, I still tend to "fight" it too much sometimes.

Had a great book by Mantak Chia about Chi, must re-aquire that guys stuff and continue the "inner smile" excersises.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Great inspirational account on Chi. I love it. What are some posisitive benefits of Chi Cultivation through Chi Kung.

Have you ever practice doing a front punch or rotating front punch really slowly?

What about a front kick really slowly?


Hubbie makes me practice Si Lim Tao uber, sloooowly. I've gotten to where I can start to feel in in my hands/palms, and tummy when I do it slow now. Pretty cool.
Did some ki stuff in Tang Soo Do as a kid, and alot of meditation. It was fun to play with the "rubber" feeling between your two palms after breathing.

I'm trying to keep my foreward "chi" force going into hubbie when doing chi sau. For some reason I get scattered and it pretty consistantly shoots off the the left. (why, the left? don't know!) Probably need to work on pivoting more when his pressure gets too great, I still tend to "fight" it too much sometimes.

Had a great book by Mantak Chia about Chi, must re-aquire that guys stuff and continue the "inner smile" excersises.
 

Si-Je

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Great inspirational account on Chi. I love it. What are some posisitive benefits of Chi Cultivation through Chi Kung.

Have you ever practice doing a front punch or rotating front punch really slowly?

What about a front kick really slowly?

Health, internal (emotional) balance, focus, centering of self are some more obvious benefits.
I met this Chi master in Arlington a couple of years ago, miss him alot. He could heal you from across the room, without getting out of his chair. (wouldn't have believed it if he didn't do it on me) But, when your 98 years old and been doing it forever I guess it's not so amazing.
He taught me some stuff, unofficially. I'd just come to the martial art shoppe he hung out in all day and chitty chat with him.
He wanted me to learn chi "so no one could touch me", really he set me out on the basics so I could differentiate between what to study and what to avoid. Too bad he passed away.

I've never punched or kicked really slowly as a drill before, could definately try it. The punching a bit when I do Si Lim Tao slowly. When I first started doing that form slow I kept sending my energy out through my hands and arms, hubbie told me to keep ahold of it until I could focus it more. (I tend to spread it out too much, have alot of it.) I've done that in Chi Sau and frustrated both him and my other teacher(he's WT, Savate, and Zipota guy) and had to chill on that for awhile.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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I am curios...98 years old. I know he discovered alot of hidden secrets just from all his years of practicing. I am still discovering new ways to apply the basics everytime I practice. So I can imagine his knowledge an skill were phenomnal...What did he sahre with your privately...please share?


Health, internal (emotional) balance, focus, centering of self are some more obvious benefits.
I met this Chi master in Arlington a couple of years ago, miss him alot. He could heal you from across the room, without getting out of his chair. (wouldn't have believed it if he didn't do it on me) But, when your 98 years old and been doing it forever I guess it's not so amazing.
He taught me some stuff, unofficially. I'd just come to the martial art shoppe he hung out in all day and chitty chat with him.
He wanted me to learn chi "so no one could touch me", really he set me out on the basics so I could differentiate between what to study and what to avoid. Too bad he passed away.

I've never punched or kicked really slowly as a drill before, could definately try it. The punching a bit when I do Si Lim Tao slowly. When I first started doing that form slow I kept sending my energy out through my hands and arms, hubbie told me to keep ahold of it until I could focus it more. (I tend to spread it out too much, have alot of it.) I've done that in Chi Sau and frustrated both him and my other teacher(he's WT, Savate, and Zipota guy) and had to chill on that for awhile.
 

Si-Je

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Just mainly basic concepts. He used "chi" in a western manner, and didn't call it chi. To him it was so simple and natural and should be to everyone else.
He stressed focus of intention as the force behind healing and disabling an opponent with chi.

He showed me a couple of pressure points that I couldn't remember to save my life. But, he showed me a trick to finding all pressure points, and acupressure points on the body. -- You find one to start with, then put your thumb (or middle finger) on the spot, then from that spot turn the hand until the middle finger of the same hand lands on anywhere on the body.(with the thumb as a reference point) With say the thumb is on a spot, the length of hand from thumb to middle finger will find another point.
And you can "walk" your hand all over the body like this, from thumb on a point, to middle finger on another, then lift the thumb a bit keeping the middle finger on the pressure point as you turn the hand for the thumb to find another.
man, I don't know if I'm explaining it well online. It's eaiser to show or talk about. But it is a really easy way to find pressure, accupressure, neve points too without just straight up memorizing a chart.
 
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