Saving Wing Chun by Eliminating Chi Sau

gpseymour

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Hoping my next car is full electric. I had a Nissan Leaf on lease, but gave it back when the lease ended. I liked it a lot, but the range was not yet what it needs to be. The technology is getting to the point where it makes sense to own one now, with the new generations of electric vehicles.
Since most folks only tool around town, the limited range of an electric makes a lot of sense. Won't catch on as well in more rural areas, though, because parking spots are too often not right at the house, making charging more problematic. They're even getting close to solving the problem for distance travel - you can get a fast charge in the time it takes to have a meal. I think too many people look at the limitation of ~200 miles and think only about the 2-3 long trips they take a year, and forget how easy it is to rent for those, anyway.
 

gpseymour

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A lot more is a bit strong ;)

I'd hazard that most cars these days never need a clutch replacement.

Some of it depends how it's driven of course.
I put 250,000 miles on my last manual. I killed the synchronizer towing with it, but the clutch lasted the entire 250K.
 
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gpseymour

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Filtering (lane splitting) isn't a legal thing in most places over there is it?

From the highway code, last bit bolded by me ;):

Rule 151
In slow-moving traffic. You should:

  • reduce the distance between you and the vehicle ahead to maintain traffic flow
  • never get so close to the vehicle in front that you cannot stop safely
  • leave enough space to be able to manoeuvre if the vehicle in front breaks down or an emergency vehicle needs to get past
  • not change lanes to the left to overtake
  • allow access into and from side roads, as blocking these will add to congestion
  • be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side
In some places it is, in others, it isn't. In bad traffic, it's sometimes not safe (where drivers aren't doing that last point). And on a big bike, it's not really feasible in a lot of places.
 

pdg

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Since most folks only tool around town, the limited range of an electric makes a lot of sense. Won't catch on as well in more rural areas, though, because parking spots are too often not right at the house, making charging more problematic. They're even getting close to solving the problem for distance travel - you can get a fast charge in the time it takes to have a meal. I think too many people look at the limitation of ~200 miles and think only about the 2-3 long trips they take a year, and forget how easy it is to rent for those, anyway.

Electric really wouldn't suit me at all with current or publicised next gen tech - if they release one with solar charging efficient enough with cloud cover to never need to plug in then yeah, that'd work...

Fast charging in the time it takes to have a meal? I don't like eating at service stops - I'm a splash and dash kinda guy - and they're going to have to massively increase the charging points too. Every charge point on the motorways I see has a queue, and that's with the current low numbers of electric cars...

Then there's infrastructure - the power requirements to charge (especially fast charge) means that the distribution grid is going to be on it's knees soon... Imagine the load if every house hooked to the local tranny starts sucking 50+ amps out at the end of commute time and/or 10 amps all night every night.

That said, I know a couple of people who have full electric and it suits them perfectly.


Either way, I really think the days of personal motorised transport are nearly over.
 

pdg

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In some places it is, in others, it isn't. In bad traffic, it's sometimes not safe (where drivers aren't doing that last point). And on a big bike, it's not really feasible in a lot of places.

I always managed on my BMW with wide Motorcross handlebars and full panniers - but the majority of drivers here are kinda used to it, which makes a huge difference.

It's another thing that's highlighted in driving lessons and tests.
 

gpseymour

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Electric really wouldn't suit me at all with current or publicised next gen tech - if they release one with solar charging efficient enough with cloud cover to never need to plug in then yeah, that'd work...

Fast charging in the time it takes to have a meal? I don't like eating at service stops - I'm a splash and dash kinda guy - and they're going to have to massively increase the charging points too. Every charge point on the motorways I see has a queue, and that's with the current low numbers of electric cars...

Then there's infrastructure - the power requirements to charge (especially fast charge) means that the distribution grid is going to be on it's knees soon... Imagine the load if every house hooked to the local tranny starts sucking 50+ amps out at the end of commute time and/or 10 amps all night every night.

That said, I know a couple of people who have full electric and it suits them perfectly.


Either way, I really think the days of personal motorised transport are nearly over.
Yep, there are still some challenges. I haven't paid much attention to charging stations here in the US, except where they exist in parking lots (which is becoming pretty common in some areas). I've seen some stations advertising the chargers, but never noticed them in use (either because they weren't, or because I've no idea where they are so wouldn't notice).

In the US, on the major motorways, many fuel stations also have standard restaurants (usually fast food, but at least not the old standard gas station fare), and folks often stop there for a quick bite, anyway. Of course, if the trips are rare, I still think renting is a logical fix. For someone like me (I travel distance by car 10-30 times each year, plus the rural issues), electric cars aren't a good solution yet.
 

gpseymour

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I always managed on my BMW with wide Motorcross handlebars and full panniers - but the majority of drivers here are kinda used to it, which makes a huge difference.

It's another thing that's highlighted in driving lessons and tests.
My last bike was more like this:
upload_2019-9-4_7-4-3.jpeg
 

Flying Crane

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A lot more is a bit strong ;)

I'd hazard that most cars these days never need a clutch replacement.

Some of it depends how it's driven of course.
Driving in the hills of San Francisco, Ive had it replaced twice. In a flat environment without heavy traffic, yeah you might never need to do it.
 

pdg

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Driving in the hills of San Francisco, Ive had it replaced twice. In a flat environment without heavy traffic, yeah you might never need to do it.

It's not mountainous around here, but it's not exactly flat either.

And the traffic is a bar steward most of the time.

And my car has a trailer on for like 80% of it's life.

I'd be very disappointed if I didn't get at least 100k miles out of a clutch ;)

When I drove a taxi I got 250k without replacing it and sold it - in and out of airports and stuff, so hours queuing in traffic.




Edit to add:

In general, cars here appear to be smaller and lighter than cars there, so less load for the majority.

That's going to make a difference.
 

geezer

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I'd be very disappointed if I didn't get at least 100k miles out of a clutch ;)
.

I had to replace the clutch in my last car at just under 100k mi. The original clutch was really tight and awkward to engage smoothly compared to my previous vehicles ...which may have contributed to wear, ...or more likely because I gave it to my 18 year old son to learn how to drive a manual? It took him a while to catch on.

But regardless, a new clutch is nothing compared to replacing an automatic transmission. Now if I could just get a rebuild on my ankles...
 

geezer

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Just had a really random thought regarding the title of this thread. If, in fact, you train the way you are traditionally supposed to ...that is if you eat, drink and breath chi-sau at every possible opportunity, then of course you will have to eliminate chi sau.

Otherwise you'd... I dunno... explode? :D
 

gpseymour

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Just had a really random thought regarding the title of this thread. If, in fact, you train the way you are traditionally supposed to ...that is if you eat, drink and breath chi-sau at every possible opportunity, then of course you will have to eliminate chi sau.

Otherwise you'd... I dunno... explode? :D
No more WC for you. I'm cutting you off, mate.
 

Willzzz

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Question: If you remove chi sao then what does Wing Chun have to offer as a martial art?

It seems like to me that if wing chun is supposed to offer you anything, it's the ability to strike in hand-fighting or clinch range while still grappling with your opponent's arms. Same with tai-chi or any style of kung fu where the arms are in contact with opponent's arms. Take that away, and what exactly is wing chun bring to the table?
 

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Geezer this post is in your honor, happy belated birthday by the way!

The question has been asked "What does Wing Chun need in the 21st century?" My answer, eliminate Chi Sau or at least minimize its "importance" as a litmus into the efficacy of martial prowess. My questions to Chunners everywhere is:

1. Do you truly believe that Chi Sau is the "Key" to making Wing Chun work?

2. If Chi Sau is really such an effective training process why don't arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling or Jujutsu (all arts that have proven themselves effective in sport and street fighting) adopt the method?

3. For all those that say "Chi Sau isn't fighting", then why act like it is and put such emphasis on it as to make it integral to the functionality of the art?

Let the sh!t show begin! Geezer you're welcome, lol.
I think it could exist without the Poon Sao (bong-tan) platform (it does in other Wing Chun systems), but Chi Sao training is still the core, but could be trained using other platforms.
 

Zeno Bokor

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The use of chi sao is mainly to teach you what to do after you've defended against the incoming attacks and you've closed distance with the enemy, it trains positions that you can recognize when in an actual fight. If you cannot get into or keep chi sao distance with the enemy then you lose but that's true of all other martial arts and sports: if a boxer can't get close to a taekwondo practitioner then he loses, if a jiu jitsu guy cannot get into grappling range with a boxer then he will lose, etc.
 

wckf92

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The use of chi sao is mainly to teach you what to do after you've defended against the incoming attacks and you've closed distance with the enemy, it trains positions that you can recognize when in an actual fight. If you cannot get into or keep chi sao distance with the enemy then you lose but that's true of all other martial arts and sports: if a boxer can't get close to a taekwondo practitioner then he loses, if a jiu jitsu guy cannot get into grappling range with a boxer then he will lose, etc.

First of all...welcome to the forum.
Second, what I got from your post is that your wing chun ONLY works in chi sau range. Is this accurate?
 

Zeno Bokor

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Thanks. The way i see it, wing chun was made for chi sao range, why else would the second form be called "closing the bridge" (getting close to the adversary)? Wing chun wasn't made for fighting at jabbing/kicking distance which is why you see so many videos online where the wing chun guy loses to such opponents because he fails to close the gap. Wing chun used at that distance becomes bad kickboxing
 
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