Steve wrote:
Anyway, KPM ...if you will excuse an of-topic comment... A while back on another thread, I believe you made a comment about having some isues lately with WC and spending more time lately with Silat or FMA? Is this true or did I just have another bout of rye-ergot poisoning? If so, why not start a thread. As an eternal skeptic and fellow FMA practitioner, I'd be really interested in your comments/observations.
Ok. You asked for it! ;-) When I get run out of here on a rail I'll blame you!
You are remembering correctly. I have been spending my time lately reinvigorating my Panantukan skills and adding some 52 Blocks to it. I have become a bit disillusioned with Wing Chun.
My reasoning goes like this: Far too many WC people seem to put a high emphasis on Chi Sau and a low emphasis on sparring. Chi Sau is not fighting. When we do see clips of WC people sparring or fighting, a high percentage of them look more like a form of kickboxing than WC. Alan Orr is someone I really respect and think has high WC skills. But as we see more and more footage of his students sparring and fighting....I still can't help but think it still looks like a form of kickboxing and not what we think of as "classical" WC. Sure there are WC concepts at work there, and many will say this makes it WC and it doesn't have to "look" like the forms and training methods. But tell that to a boxer or kickboxer and they will look at you like you are stupid or something. They would ask you why you can't make your WC-specific techniques actually work! Why train one way but fight another way? You should train the way you fight and fight the way you train. That's the way I look at it.
What do we see working in the MMA area? It is some version of a boxing/kickboxing based striking method. What has been the main striking combat sport for generations? Boxing & Kickboxing. When the Chinese set out to develop their on striking based combat sporting method (Sanda) what did it end up looking like? A type of kickboxing!
So if what has been proven to work well time after time in sparring and fighting competition is some form of boxing/kickboxing, shouldn't our training focus on that? If even WC people end up resorting to something that looks as much or more like a version of kickboxing when sparring or fighting under pressure, shouldn't our training focus on that? Boxers don't train one way and fight another. Kickboxers don't train one way and fight another. MMA guys don't train one way and fight another.
If you don't believe what I have been saying, just do a search on youtube for "Wing Chun vs. ....." or "Wing Chun sparring", etc.
So the end result of my line of thinking has been that what is going to be the most reliable and natural and easiest to pull off under pressure is something boxing-based. Panantukan is boxing-based with some cool "martial" add ons. 52 Blocks is boxing-based and puts a heavy emphasis on what works in sparring.
I have spent much more time training Wing Chun than Panantukan or boxing. I have learned 3 different "families" or "styles" of Wing Chun. But when I find myself under some heavy pressure, what comes out for me is my boxing-based Panantukan more than WC. You might say that is a failure in my WC training method, and you might be right! But I haven't trained any differently over the years than the majority of other WC guys, so I tend to think there is more to it than that.
Who knows, I might change my opinion again at some point and find a renewed faith in Wing Chun. But I am having fun with the Panantukan and 52 Blocks right now! ;-)
Anyway, KPM ...if you will excuse an of-topic comment... A while back on another thread, I believe you made a comment about having some isues lately with WC and spending more time lately with Silat or FMA? Is this true or did I just have another bout of rye-ergot poisoning? If so, why not start a thread. As an eternal skeptic and fellow FMA practitioner, I'd be really interested in your comments/observations.
Ok. You asked for it! ;-) When I get run out of here on a rail I'll blame you!

You are remembering correctly. I have been spending my time lately reinvigorating my Panantukan skills and adding some 52 Blocks to it. I have become a bit disillusioned with Wing Chun.
My reasoning goes like this: Far too many WC people seem to put a high emphasis on Chi Sau and a low emphasis on sparring. Chi Sau is not fighting. When we do see clips of WC people sparring or fighting, a high percentage of them look more like a form of kickboxing than WC. Alan Orr is someone I really respect and think has high WC skills. But as we see more and more footage of his students sparring and fighting....I still can't help but think it still looks like a form of kickboxing and not what we think of as "classical" WC. Sure there are WC concepts at work there, and many will say this makes it WC and it doesn't have to "look" like the forms and training methods. But tell that to a boxer or kickboxer and they will look at you like you are stupid or something. They would ask you why you can't make your WC-specific techniques actually work! Why train one way but fight another way? You should train the way you fight and fight the way you train. That's the way I look at it.
What do we see working in the MMA area? It is some version of a boxing/kickboxing based striking method. What has been the main striking combat sport for generations? Boxing & Kickboxing. When the Chinese set out to develop their on striking based combat sporting method (Sanda) what did it end up looking like? A type of kickboxing!
So if what has been proven to work well time after time in sparring and fighting competition is some form of boxing/kickboxing, shouldn't our training focus on that? If even WC people end up resorting to something that looks as much or more like a version of kickboxing when sparring or fighting under pressure, shouldn't our training focus on that? Boxers don't train one way and fight another. Kickboxers don't train one way and fight another. MMA guys don't train one way and fight another.
If you don't believe what I have been saying, just do a search on youtube for "Wing Chun vs. ....." or "Wing Chun sparring", etc.
So the end result of my line of thinking has been that what is going to be the most reliable and natural and easiest to pull off under pressure is something boxing-based. Panantukan is boxing-based with some cool "martial" add ons. 52 Blocks is boxing-based and puts a heavy emphasis on what works in sparring.
I have spent much more time training Wing Chun than Panantukan or boxing. I have learned 3 different "families" or "styles" of Wing Chun. But when I find myself under some heavy pressure, what comes out for me is my boxing-based Panantukan more than WC. You might say that is a failure in my WC training method, and you might be right! But I haven't trained any differently over the years than the majority of other WC guys, so I tend to think there is more to it than that.
Who knows, I might change my opinion again at some point and find a renewed faith in Wing Chun. But I am having fun with the Panantukan and 52 Blocks right now! ;-)