Rambling Ruminations

[KPM]

Steve wrote:
Anyway, KPM ...if you will excuse an of-topic comment... A while back on another thread, I believe you made a comment about having some isues lately with WC and spending more time lately with Silat or FMA? Is this true or did I just have another bout of rye-ergot poisoning? If so, why not start a thread. As an eternal skeptic and fellow FMA practitioner, I'd be really interested in your comments/observations.

Ok. You asked for it! ;-) When I get run out of here on a rail I'll blame you!

You are remembering correctly. I have been spending my time lately reinvigorating my Panantukan skills and adding some 52 Blocks to it. I have become a bit disillusioned with Wing Chun.

My reasoning goes like this: Far too many WC people seem to put a high emphasis on Chi Sau and a low emphasis on sparring. Chi Sau is not fighting. When we do see clips of WC people sparring or fighting, a high percentage of them look more like a form of kickboxing than WC. Alan Orr is someone I really respect and think has high WC skills. But as we see more and more footage of his students sparring and fighting....I still can't help but think it still looks like a form of kickboxing and not what we think of as "classical" WC. Sure there are WC concepts at work there, and many will say this makes it WC and it doesn't have to "look" like the forms and training methods. But tell that to a boxer or kickboxer and they will look at you like you are stupid or something. They would ask you why you can't make your WC-specific techniques actually work! Why train one way but fight another way? You should train the way you fight and fight the way you train. That's the way I look at it.

What do we see working in the MMA area? It is some version of a boxing/kickboxing based striking method. What has been the main striking combat sport for generations? Boxing & Kickboxing. When the Chinese set out to develop their on striking based combat sporting method (Sanda) what did it end up looking like? A type of kickboxing!

So if what has been proven to work well time after time in sparring and fighting competition is some form of boxing/kickboxing, shouldn't our training focus on that? If even WC people end up resorting to something that looks as much or more like a version of kickboxing when sparring or fighting under pressure, shouldn't our training focus on that? Boxers don't train one way and fight another. Kickboxers don't train one way and fight another. MMA guys don't train one way and fight another.

If you don't believe what I have been saying, just do a search on youtube for "Wing Chun vs. ....." or "Wing Chun sparring", etc.

So the end result of my line of thinking has been that what is going to be the most reliable and natural and easiest to pull off under pressure is something boxing-based. Panantukan is boxing-based with some cool "martial" add ons. 52 Blocks is boxing-based and puts a heavy emphasis on what works in sparring.

I have spent much more time training Wing Chun than Panantukan or boxing. I have learned 3 different "families" or "styles" of Wing Chun. But when I find myself under some heavy pressure, what comes out for me is my boxing-based Panantukan more than WC. You might say that is a failure in my WC training method, and you might be right! But I haven't trained any differently over the years than the majority of other WC guys, so I tend to think there is more to it than that.

Who knows, I might change my opinion again at some point and find a renewed faith in Wing Chun. But I am having fun with the Panantukan and 52 Blocks right now! ;-)

 

[KPM]

And one more thing.....if I was asked "what system has the best punching method out there?" Factoring in speed, power generation, number of combinations, and difficulty to defend against...... My answer would be "hands down....western boxing!" As a Wing Chun guy, if you asked me what kind of fighter I would LEAST want to face? Hands down...a good western boxer.

 

[Drose427]

While I have no dog in this fight, it's important to note that free sparring in nearly any striking style looks like Kickboxing, that's where kickboxing came from..

In bunkai (outside of what my school calls "test bunkai") you'll see things from forms (such as elbows and knees) and what not that would look the same in an MMA.

Free sparring and kickboxing looks that way cause "risk vs reward". In K1 and MMA you have karate/TKD guys who spar exactly like you'd see in their root style, and you have others who aren't comfortable or feel they aren't fast enough, or some any other of many reasons who aren't comfortable taking the risk of kicking. Many times its more a personal decision than one on style.

People fight/freespar using their best techs, the techs they feel they can accomplish the easiest with the Minimal risk.

Depending on the setting and a person's training these can be different things.

As for applying and/or using more of the Wing Chun Specific concepts, I can't chime in there. But I'm sure you'll get a strong debate from this

 

[Eric_H]

Do what makes you happy man, only one life. I love WC, but would tell most people to run screaming from it.

 

[Danny T]

I say Wing Chun is a training method of how to use one's body as well as controlling the center. How one utilizes or applies such will may be different for everyone. Use what works best for you.

 

[KPM]

it's important to note that free sparring in nearly any striking style looks like Kickboxing, that's where kickboxing came from.

---But why is that? The answer I have come to is that the biomechanics of boxing/kickboxing is a more natural and instinctive way to move. You take a classical martial art (be it Wing Chun, Karate, Hung Ga, etc. ), throw it into a sparring situation and you see a version of kickboxing. If that is what works when fighting, shouldn't THAT be what people are actually training? Why spend all that time training the "classical" style?


Free sparring and kickboxing looks that way cause "risk vs reward". In K1 and MMA you have karate/TKD guys who spar exactly like you'd see in their root style, and you have others who aren't comfortable or feel they aren't fast enough, or some any other of many reasons who aren't comfortable taking the risk of kicking. Many times its more a personal decision than one on style.

---They do what is going to help them win. How often do you watch a UFC fight where one can actually say that someone is doing TKD, or traditional Karate....or heck even classic Muay Thai anymore? Lyoto Machida is the closest, and as time has gone on his classical Karate is less and less recognizable in the Octagon. And even if you could say someone was doing TKD, its going to be Olympic TKD and not the TKD they train in their numerous classical forms and one-step sparring routines.
.

As for applying and/or using more of the Wing Chun Specific concepts, I can't chime in there. But I'm sure you'll get a strong debate from this

---No doubt! Although people have been nice to me so far! ;-)

 

[Drose427]

it's important to note that free sparring in nearly any striking style looks like Kickboxing, that's where kickboxing came from.

---But why is that? The answer I have come to is that the biomechanics of boxing/kickboxing is a more natural and instinctive way to move. You take a classical martial art (be it Wing Chun, Karate, Hung Ga, etc. ), throw it into a sparring situation and you see a version of kickboxing. If that is what works when fighting, shouldn't THAT be what people are actually training? Why spend all that time training the "classical" style?


Free sparring and kickboxing looks that way cause "risk vs reward". In K1 and MMA you have karate/TKD guys who spar exactly like you'd see in their root style, and you have others who aren't comfortable or feel they aren't fast enough, or some any other of many reasons who aren't comfortable taking the risk of kicking. Many times its more a personal decision than one on style.

---They do what is going to help them win. How often do you watch a UFC fight where one can actually say that someone is doing TKD, or traditional Karate....or heck even classic Muay Thai anymore? Lyoto Machida is the closest, and as time has gone on his classical Karate is less and less recognizable in the Octagon. And even if you could say someone was doing TKD, its going to be Olympic TKD and not the TKD they train in their numerous classical forms and one-step sparring routines.
.

As for applying and/or using more of the Wing Chun Specific concepts, I can't chime in there. But I'm sure you'll get a strong debate from this

---No doubt! Although people have been nice to me so far! ;-)

Well as in Karate/TKD/TSD, the actual moves in Kata fall into 2 categories.

Illegal in freesparring and not

The first are meant to be treated as bunkai and drilled with a resisting opponent coming to break your nose. These are the throws, elbows, knees, etc. Theyre regularly practiced

The second are the punches and kicks. Where the actual technique of that specific move will be the same in Sparring. I.e. Srtaight punches, and the kicks. To be fair, stances in forms depend on your styles lineage. Okinawan styles use high realistic stances, my association uses deep stances in forms to build muscle and flexibility. When we spar, we're as light if not lighter than an average boxer.

These techs/combinations are again, regularly drilled.

Some folks would rather drill defending against an attacker with techs that are highly likely to work, but are illegal in their competitive medium, even MMA has a lot of things outlawed that folks who train forms are regularly drilling.

When both get regularly drilled with contact and resistance, where an individual puts the most time dictates how they react to a real attack. In a sport environment, it will almost always look like kickboxing.

We had a girl in my association who was walking to her dorm late at night and was attacked. The cell phone video someone recorded showed she knocked him out with a knife hand strike straight out of forms.

Both times I had to deal with a belligerent drunk, I handled it like a kickboxer. But I boxed before I found TSD. The only other time Ive had to use my training, I used an arm lock, took him down and just held him there by torquing it till someone broke it up.

Regardless, the assumption that one is slacking off his sparring to work on Bunkai is typically wrong.



Its pretty easy to pick out when a fighter is using moves from a specific style. Anthony Pettis, Anderson Silva, Ben Henderson, all use or have used blatant TKD kicks. Its pretty disctinctive from Muay Thai.

For Karate you have Machida and GSP, and Machidas Striking is still exactly whatd youd see at a high level Karate tournament. He's simply added grappling to it.

Finally, while youre right that most (if not all) of the TKD guys come from Kukki TKD, they very regularly drill numerous classic forms. While technically its possible to find a school that doesnt do SD drilling or One step, I've personally never seen it or heard of a school not doing it.

 

[geezer]

KPM -- I pretty much anticipated your response. WC attracts a fair number or "true-believer" types who follow their lineage and instructors with cultish fervor. And then there are the critical thinkers who come to WC because it offers a fascinating and unique theory of how to approach unarmed combat. But as you say, the theory may not always hold up in practice. And if you are a critical thinker, that's going to bother you. Big time.

I love WC, but I hear what you are saying. Thanks for being open about it. Now I'll shut up and listen to what others have to say.

 

[dlcox]

Keith you opened a can of worms you rebel

I definitely hear what your saying. I've discussed my thoughts on Chi Shou before and stand by my belief that, as a practice that is supposed to relate and transfer into martial ability, it just doesn't hold up under pressure. I have argued that the platform is awkward and that it is not conducive to natural response or reflexive action in it's classical presentation. If Yong Chun is supposed to be natural and not "Animal" based why is it so awkward and not based upon gross motor skill? Conceptually I believe that Chi Shou is fantastic for wrestling not boxing, though some actions are naturally transferable. Anyways, being from the camp of concepts vs. form, I will argue the principles of Yong Chun as being evident in some fights, whether the individual practices Yong Chun or not. As I believe that principles exist without form, that being said I can relate to what you are saying about appearances. Perception is what gives us classification and I agree that in order for an art to be represented as such it should be presented as such.

As for your question of kickboxing. Why do many classically trained stylist revert to it? I addressed this issue once before on that other forum. It simply has to do with Gross Motor Skill vs. Combined Motor Skill vs. Fine Motor Skill. Yong Chun as an art is mostly a Combined to Fine Motor Skill Art. It has a heavy focus on finesse, Fine Motor Skill is the first thing to go when under pressure. Arts like boxing and kick boxing are Gross to Combined Motor Skill arts and fare way better under pressure. This has to do with not only the techniques involved but also the principles. It is a combination of how the two communicate. Ambiguous principle combined with fine movement doesn't translate well under pressure, Yong Chun is riddled with this and uses Chi Shou as a vehicle to explain the theory involved within set parameters and rules. The problem with this is that when it is to be applied outside of the presented platform it falls short because it does not allow for variables contradictory to the rule set. It's complexity stunts it's effectiveness. Many will undoubtedly disagree with me and fervently defend it, but to each their own. Usefulness is in practicality and effectiveness based on high percentage of probability. In short if you can't pull it off even 50% of the time under heavy pressure, I don't want to hear how effective a method it is. Gross Motor Skill is the foundation from which effective movement, technique and application is based. From here it should be refined to Combined Motor Skill then to Fine Motor Skill. It should not start with Fine Motor Skill, as in Yong Chun. I was always told that Yong Chun is an advanced art, it is not for beginners and should only be taught to those who have a solid background in a Gross Motor art (like Long Fist), because it is an art of refinement. Yong Chun is a key that can unlock many doors and allow one to better understand nuances of what can be considered "cruder" methods.

Your third point on usage of Yong Chun is directly related to my second response with the addition of intent. Many will argue that they do practice under pressure but I will argue that it is also most likely in some manner choreographed or scripted to an extent. This isn't a bad thing but it is also not outright organic. What I mean by this is that rules are still being followed as far as the technique is concerned. This is where the argument of concept vs. technique comes into play. Again I subscribe to the school of concept as opposed to strict adherence to form. Yes technique is important to maximize the full concentrated effect of a certain movement, but this also requires an absolute adherence to refinement. The problem with this is that it doesn't allow one to naturally refine the technique through progression in application. Many Shifu want their students to perform the movement perfectly as they see it and not as how the practitioner perceives, understands or feels it, simply because that is how they understand it. Peoples mechanics are heavily influenced by their upbringing and environment, this has to be taken into consideration. We cannot expect them to move like us or us like them without practice, time and practical relatable experience. How we react to stimuli is not the same, just as how we initiate contact is not the same. Some will prefer a punch over a grab, others a grab over a kick. This has everything to do with how we perceive conflict and what intent we confront it with. The other part of this equation is the methods in which we train to condition response. Many employ way to many movements to counter a simple aggressive act, this creates confusion under heavy pressure as it places one out of the gate in a Combined Motor Skill mindset, it sets them up to fail. Many also practice with dead movement, ie; The aggressor leaves his arm hanging without retracting, this give a false sense of security to the defender as they believe that the technique is actually working correctly. Practical simple responses based upon live movement, ie; The aggressor retracts the arm as quickly as it was thrown, allows the defender to work on timing, distance, intent, control and use in a realistic manner. Once this is achieved combinations can be added and refinement can be introduced.

 

[yak sao]

I think much of what we see on video are WC people who are still at the "technique" stage.
As dlcox posted above, to be effective, it must be a gross motor skill. If you are thinking "technique", then you are at the fine motor level.
From the very beginning we were taught to get the force out of our hands and into our elbow...then the lats, back, scapulae.
If you are able to do this, then the movements are gross motor movements.
The problem is that this is a long process.

 

[Danny T]

Wing Chun is a method to learn to feel your body and to feel changes in your opponent's movements, center of gravity, pressure changes. The biggest problem I've seen for most is they never really pressure test in a fighting situation. Chi sao is not fighting and is only a small piece of training/practice. Just because you can chi sao does mean you can fight or even understand fighting. Most of what is shown as wc fighting is terrible and by persons who play at it. Same can be said for most martial training out there from what I have seen. The basic training in wc vs a person making perfectly straight center line punching is for learning how to defend the line but does little to train one for other type of punches. WC training is filled with twor person drills, drills, drills and drilling is not fighting. To really understand and have the ability to apply what one learns from wc training one must spar vs someone making hard forceful attacks and throwing strong non choreographed punches, kicks, grabs, throws, and takedowns. I agree with Yak Sao on it is a long process. WC is a simple system but takes a lot of practice and takes practice against pressure.

 

[yak sao]

One thing I stress is that our forms, unlike the forms from other kung fu systems, are not "fighting forms". One of their purposes is to instill structure into the body. This structure goes beyond the outward appearance of tan, bong, jum.... It needs to move deep into the torso, and of course the stance.
The same can be said for chi sau...it's not meant for fighting. It's a bridge to fighting.

I see so many WC people trying to do a one for one translation of the forms and chi sau. and what you are left with is a very shallow interpretation of WC....one that falls apart under pressure.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Far too many WC people seem to put a high emphasis on Chi Sau and a low emphasis on sparring. Chi Sau is not fighting.

In my opinion chi sao is a training method designed specificly to focus on the development of a fighter's ability to project and read intent while handling momentum using wing chun tools, nothing more. I believe if more people treat it as such, they will gain much more from it. It does not tell you to fight a specific way, instead it gives you tools which can be combined and used in infinite ways.

Fine Motor Skill is the first thing to go when under pressure.

completely agree, unless you have developed your intent to a high level.

 

[KPM]

The first are meant to be treated as bunkai and drilled with a resisting opponent coming to break your nose. These are the throws, elbows, knees, etc. Theyre regularly practiced

---You seem to be forgetting that throws, elbows and knees are all legal and allowed in MMA competition...heck, even in some Sanda competition!


Some folks would rather drill defending against an attacker with techs that are highly likely to work, but are illegal in their competitive medium, even MMA has a lot of things outlawed that folks who train forms are regularly drilling.

---Do you mean fish-hooking and eye gouging? ;-)


When both get regularly drilled with contact and resistance, where an individual puts the most time dictates how they react to a real attack. In a sport environment, it will almost always look like kickboxing.

----One can't drop into a low stance and throw reverse punches in a sport environment? Once can't use outward forearm blocks while drawing the other hand back to the waist in a sport environment? Why is that?


Its pretty easy to pick out when a fighter is using moves from a specific style. Anthony Pettis, Anderson Silva, Ben Henderson, all use or have used blatant TKD kicks. Its pretty disctinctive from Muay Thai.

---Using a kick that comes from TKD is not the same as doing TKD in the ring. I can throw a decent roundhouse kick that doesn't come from Wing Chun or Panantukan. Does that mean I know TKD? Why train all the classical techniques from the forms if they aren't going to be used when actually fighting under pressure? When was the last time you saw Pettis, Silva, or Henderson throw a punch that looked anything like what is trained in classical TKD forms?

 

[Drose427]

The first are meant to be treated as bunkai and drilled with a resisting opponent coming to break your nose. These are the throws, elbows, knees, etc. Theyre regularly practiced

---You seem to be forgetting that throws, elbows and knees are all legal and allowed in MMA competition...heck, even in some Sanda competition!


Some folks would rather drill defending against an attacker with techs that are highly likely to work, but are illegal in their competitive medium, even MMA has a lot of things outlawed that folks who train forms are regularly drilling.

---Do you mean fish-hooking and eye gouging? ;-)


When both get regularly drilled with contact and resistance, where an individual puts the most time dictates how they react to a real attack. In a sport environment, it will almost always look like kickboxing.

----One can't drop into a low stance and throw reverse punches in a sport environment? Once can't use outward forearm blocks while drawing the other hand back to the waist in a sport environment? Why is that?


Its pretty easy to pick out when a fighter is using moves from a specific style. Anthony Pettis, Anderson Silva, Ben Henderson, all use or have used blatant TKD kicks. Its pretty disctinctive from Muay Thai.

---Using a kick that comes from TKD is not the same as doing TKD in the ring. I can throw a decent roundhouse kick that doesn't come from Wing Chun or Panantukan. Does that mean I know TKD? Why train all the classical techniques from the forms if they aren't going to be used when actually fighting under pressure? When was the last time you saw Pettis, Silva, or Henderson throw a punch that looked anything like what is trained in classical TKD forms?

Yes like eye gouges

But to go straight into the other points.

If you're throwing a tkd roundhouse, you're doing tkd.....if you're throwing A different styles, it's a different style rou.dhouse. But when the technique is picture perfect from style X, at that point you're doing style X.

They can, but I'm sport it's not recommended. For most schools that ise them deep syances are just there for conditioning and flexibility. Manu styles use upright stances. The downward block in forms isn't just a downward block, it's pretty obviously part of a takedown to those who train it. Treating it always as a block is dangerous because 9/10 it won't work as such.

Those guys all regularly use reverse punches and Tkd kicks, which are in the form. The stance is just different


No one on the planet mimics forms perfectly, in bunkai or sparring. That's not what forms are. You seem to be thinking people consider them a "super realistic, be all- end all," thing and they arent.

They're a textbook of techniques for you to apply and drill on resisting opponents while building core strength and focus.

 

[KPM]

Keith you opened a can of worms you rebel

---It's Steve's fault!!!! ;-)

being from the camp of concepts vs. form, I will argue the principles of Yong Chun as being evident in some fights, whether the individual practices Yong Chun or not. As I believe that principles exist without form, that being said I can relate to what you are saying about appearances.

---Fighting has changed some over the generations. Maybe at some point in the past the "classical" arts represented the fighting of the day. Maybe at some point Wing Chun was the best way to express those principles you refer to in fighting. But Bruce Lee pointed out rather nicely that this may not be the case today.

Perception is what gives us classification and I agree that in order for an art to be represented as such it should be presented as such.

---I'm glad you agree. One should fight the way they train, or they are likely wasting a lot of training time.

As for your question of kickboxing. Why do many classically trained stylist revert to it? I addressed this issue once before on that other forum. It simply has to do with Gross Motor Skill vs. Combined Motor Skill vs. Fine Motor Skill. Yong Chun as an art is mostly a Combined to Fine Motor Skill Art. It has a heavy focus on finesse, Fine Motor Skill is the first thing to go when under pressure. Arts like boxing and kick boxing are Gross to Combined Motor Skill arts and fare way better under pressure.

---Good way of putting it! I have said that the boxing biomechanic just seems to be more natural and more likely to hold up under pressure. Maybe this is why. Maybe it just comes the closest to using a human being's natural gross motor skills.

It's complexity stunts it's effectiveness. Many will undoubtedly disagree with me and fervently defend it, but to each their own.

---That's an interesting statement. Wing Chun is supposed to be less complex than other Gung Fu methods. That's one of its claims to fame....being a stripped down and stream-lined art.

Usefulness is in practicality and effectiveness based on high percentage of probability. In short if you can't pull it off even 50% of the time under heavy pressure, I don't want to hear how effective a method it is.

----I certainly agree! The problem is, a large percentage of Wing Chun people don't realize that they can't pull it off under pressure against a non-Wing Chun fighter because they have never tried!


I was always told that Yong Chun is an advanced art, it is not for beginners and should only be taught to those who have a solid background in a Gross Motor art (like Long Fist), because it is an art of refinement. Yong Chun is a key that can unlock many doors and allow one to better understand nuances of what can be considered "cruder" methods.

---Another interesting statement! But then you have to wonder if a classic Long Fist fighter turned Wing Chun fighter would be any more successful under pressure without resorting to some version of Long Fist-ish kickboxing.

---One of the advantages of practicing a boxing-based method is that you are constantly training against someone throwing techniques from a boxing-based method. In today's modern setting, most attackers are likely going to be using some kind of pseudo-boxing method against you....throwing haymakers, jabs, hooks, etc. Wing Chun is too specific. Wing Chun people spend the vast majority of their time training against someone else doing Wing Chun.

 

[KPM]

As dlcox posted above, to be effective, it must be a gross motor skill. If you are thinking "technique", then you are at the fine motor level.

---I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by a "gross motor skill." A gross motor skill is one that requires a low number of nerves firing to affect a large number of muscle fibers. A fine motor skill is one that requires a larger number of nerves firing to effect a smaller number of muscle fibers, but with a higher level of control. Training does not convert a fine motor skill into a gross motor skill. It just reinforces the fine motor skill.

 

[KPM]

One thing I stress is that our forms, unlike the forms from other kung fu systems, are not "fighting forms". One of their purposes is to instill structure into the body. This structure goes beyond the outward appearance of tan, bong, jum.... It needs to move deep into the torso, and of course the stance.
The same can be said for chi sau...it's not meant for fighting. It's a bridge to fighting.

I see so many WC people trying to do a one for one translation of the forms and chi sau. and what you are left with is a very shallow interpretation of WC....one that falls apart under pressure.

If you aren't training the way you fight and fighting the way you train then something is wrong. If forms and Chi Sau don't translate to fighting then why are you doing them? I understand that you are saying they develop a deeper level of structure that will be used in fighting, but heck....shouldn't they give you some basic techniques for defense? Aren't we all told the story that Wing Chun was designed to be simple, learned quickly, and intended for training someone to fight faster then those other second rate Gung Fu styles that were its competitors back in the day? ;-)

 

[KPM]

If you're throwing a tkd roundhouse, you're doing tkd.....if you're throwing A different styles, it's a different style rou.dhouse. But when the technique is picture perfect from style X, at that point you're doing style X.

---I disagree. Picking a technique here and another there doesn't mean you are doing multiple martial arts. What counts is the biomechanics behind what you are doing....the powerbase or "engine" behind your movement. Classical TKD forms teach you to move a certain way and generate punching power with a specific biomechanic. Its a package deal. Vitor Belfort would drive in on guys and back them up with a flurry of centerline Wing Chun punches, but no one ever claimed he was doing Wing Chun.


No one on the planet mimics forms perfectly, in bunkai or sparring. That's not what forms are. You seem to be thinking people consider them a "super realistic, be all- end all," thing and they arent.

---And again, this illustrates part of the problem I see with classical martial arts. Seldom do they fight the way they train.

They're a textbook of techniques for you to apply and drill on resisting opponents while building core strength and focus

---Then they are an outdated textbook of techniques that seldom show up when sparring or fighting under real pressure.

 

[Drose427]

If you're throwing a tkd roundhouse, you're doing tkd.....if you're throwing A different styles, it's a different style rou.dhouse. But when the technique is picture perfect from style X, at that point you're doing style X.

---I disagree. Picking a technique here and another there doesn't mean you are doing multiple martial arts. What counts is the biomechanics behind what you are doing....the powerbase or "engine" behind your movement. Classical TKD forms teach you to move a certain way and generate punching power with a specific biomechanic. Its a package deal. Vitor Belfort would drive in on guys and back them up with a flurry of centerline Wing Chun punches, but no one ever claimed he was doing Wing Chun.


No one on the planet mimics forms perfectly, in bunkai or sparring. That's not what forms are. You seem to be thinking people consider them a "super realistic, be all- end all," thing and they arent.

---And again, this illustrates part of the problem I see with classical martial arts. Seldom do they fight the way they train.

They're a textbook of techniques for you to apply and drill on resisting opponents while building core strength and focus

---Then they are an outdated textbook of techniques that seldom show up when sparring or fighting under real pressure.

Considering all the guys I mentioned are TKD and Karate black belts, yes they are doing TKD and karate......many of them even throw reverse punches like from TKD and Karate.... they aren't doing a general roundhouse, it's picture perfect how it's taught I'm that style. Saying it isn't Karate or TKD when it's blatantly a tech ique from that style they learned while training in that art, you're letting a personal vendetta against TMA's keep you in denial

And yes they do show up in real pressure if you've trained them enough. You're asking on a forum full of folks who have used movements from forms in SD, just because you dont, doesn't make them outdated or useless.

Machida, GSP, and Silva all do forms regualrly. Superfoot was still regularly doing his forms while Kickboxing.

If professional fighters believe they're useful for their fighting or growth as a martial artist, they're useful.