Do you feel guilty?

[Flatlander]

We don't train like your typical "karate dojo". We train like boxers or guys in the ufc. Have you ever been to a boxing gym? All there is in there is blood and sweat. If getting a bloody lip or having a bruise on my cheek makes me not get my butt kicked in the street I will take that.

When sparring, I think its important that people get smacked around a bit, particularly if having an all out spar, as I believe there are various levels of spar. However, that was not the topic of discussion.

When someone gets hurt by you in an accident, do you end up with guilt and negative feelings over what happened?

In this scenario, I would say that yes, I would feel bad. Particularly if it had been something serious, such as a broken arm, or any other bone, really.

It is important for everyone involved to offer the best level of control achievable at all times. This is the only way to improve in one's skillset. Nobody improves by not trying to have control over their movement. A carpenter does not learn to build a house by throwing hammers at nails. A computer progammer doesn't hone his craft by mashing his hands into the keyboard.

Of course, in the dojo, accidents will happen. The reference to the punch in the nose was in the context of the all out pound on eachother type spar. So, yeah, don't drop your guard. But punching eachother in the face, as well as actively trying not to getpunched in the face is the goal of the exercise. That is the intent. Just not the intent of the thread.

 

[Elizium]

Well we have seemed to have all hurt each other in the physical sense, but what of the other question...

Or maybe enter into a relationship which goes wrong and that person leaves.

How would this make you feel? Is this not the same thing? It is after all, hurting another person, but not with contact, but with the feeling of loss or betrayal.

So lets see your answers upon this question.

 

[Phoenix44]

I was once teaching a class, and 2 of the upper rank students were taking the technique a little too far. In other words, they were doing SOMETHING, but not EXACTLY what I was having the class work on. I let it go, because I figured, hey, they're upper rank, they're adults, and they should be able to handle it. Well, one student ended up with a torn knee, and I had to take her to the ER. This was about 6 mos ago, she's doing well with rehab fortunately, she's training, but she's still wearing a brace.

Did I feel bad? Of course I felt bad. For one thing, I felt I should have told them to work on exactly what they were supposed to be doing; maybe this wouldn't have happened. On the other hand, they are adults, they are experienced, and they made the choice to do what they were doing. PLUS, you can injure yourself from ANY technique we do. I don't dwell on it at this point.

A stupid relationship, however? A different story.

 

[MJS]

I will make up some examples:

Example 1: My Sifu and I are sparring, I drop my hands to throw a haymaker, my sifu pops me in the nose and blood starts coming out. That is my fault for dropping my hands. He probably just taught me a lesson or 2 I will never forget.

Example 2: Againt we are sparring and he muay thai kicks my knee and when I fall my head doesn't hit the mat it hits the cement and I get a concucssion. It's not his fault for kicking me, it's mine for not dodging or blocking his kick and not tumbling right.

I would rather get the s*** kicked out of me in the training room than on the street. And it's not like he will just stomp the heck out of me. If I tap out he lets go, if I am unable to defend myself and can't get up or something he will stop and we will reset.

I see what you're saying here, and agree again, to a point. There are times during my sessions that I'll mix it up and go harder. Doing that IMO, does raise the level a little and it gives you a different feel. I do however, feel that it is important for there to be an understanding with the people that you're doing this with. There still has to be an element of control to a point, due to a few reasons. One, if there is no control at all, then that friendly match just turned into a brawl. Second, I dont know about you, but I have to go to work everyday. Who the hell needs to get a broken nose, broken bone, etc.?? Third, if an injury happens every time a training session happens, I would think you're eventually gonna run out of people to train with. I love to train, and yes there are days when I want to take it to the next level, but again, I dont need to leave every session with an injury. Sure, your bumps and brusies do happen, but when you start talking about always drawing blood and getting your head whacked on concrete.....??? I've sparred with my inst. many times, and yes, my hands have dropped and yes, hes popped me, but hes never drawn blood. He got his point across, I didnt get the bloody nose, and I still learned my lesson.

 

[loki09789]

I think any decent person is going to feel 'guilty' or IMO sympathy/empathy for a fellow human being who is in pain/injured, whether you are the cause of that pain or not. I would feel worse if I did cause that pain with intention (momentary flash of frustration, anger, ... because I was getting out classed or I wasn't getting the drill/movement/technique) than if it was an 'accident'. I think everyone on the floor assumes some risk is there to be injured/hurt. Even in a self defense situation, though I might feel 'justified' for defending myself I will still feel bad that I caused pain.

I think part of the 'intangible' values of martial arts training is learning to balance that 'humanity' with necessity. People are always talking about the 'desensitizatin' of our youth to violence because of tv or video games, but I think that some kid on a farm in 19th century America would be more 'desensitized' because of the daily dealing with life and death that comes with farming. The problem with the mentallity today is that there is no moral structure in the violence/pain that kids experience through these modern things.

If the price seems too high (injury risk, guilt of pain you are causing in training) then it is a chance to explore your inner self and find out what you really care about. I have known some folks who leave training or refuse to consider certain techniques as self defense options because of soul searching. Though I generally focus on Self Defense as my primary goal, I and the rest of us who study really have to find that balance between humanity and necessity.

I don't ever want to get to the point where I just say "well, he got what he deserved" or "I loved teaching that *** a lesson" BUT I don't want my 'inner teddy bear' become a liability that keeps me from being able to do what I have to in the moment to get home to my wife and son.

 

[TigerWoman]

I think if you have personal relationships in a the dojang you jeopardize your training just for the reason that they can go wrong and make things uncomfortable at the least and unbearable at the worst. TW

 

[kenpo tiger]

I think any decent person is going to feel 'guilty' or IMO sympathy/empathy for a fellow human being who is in pain/injured, whether you are the cause of that pain or not. I would feel worse if I did cause that pain with intention (momentary flash of frustration, anger, ... because I was getting out classed or I wasn't getting the drill/movement/technique) than if it was an 'accident'. I think everyone on the floor assumes some risk is there to be injured/hurt. Even in a self defense situation, though I might feel 'justified' for defending myself I will still feel bad that I caused pain.

I think part of the 'intangible' values of martial arts training is learning to balance that 'humanity' with necessity. People are always talking about the 'desensitizatin' of our youth to violence because of tv or video games, but I think that some kid on a farm in 19th century America would be more 'desensitized' because of the daily dealing with life and death that comes with farming. The problem with the mentallity today is that there is no moral structure in the violence/pain that kids experience through these modern things.

If the price seems too high (injury risk, guilt of pain you are causing in training) then it is a chance to explore your inner self and find out what you really care about. I have known some folks who leave training or refuse to consider certain techniques as self defense options because of soul searching. Though I generally focus on Self Defense as my primary goal, I and the rest of us who study really have to find that balance between humanity and necessity.

I don't ever want to get to the point where I just say "well, he got what he deserved" or "I loved teaching that *** a lesson" BUT I don't want my 'inner teddy bear' become a liability that keeps me from being able to do what I have to in the moment to get home to my wife and son.

I agree. I think there is a difference between 'making good contact' and being out of control during sparring. I hate to admit that there are times when I spar when I get so angry I want to hurt the person I'm working with. I never do, because 'my inner teddy bear' turns into the guardian angel on my shoulder telling me that it's wrong and this is not the time or place. [Hence my nickname 'Gentle Ben', since my rep is that I've never hurt anyone while sparring (at my present school).]

I've found it important in my martial arts career to maintain control -- of my temper, of my emotions, and of my body, not necessarily in that order. I don't enjoy getting hit - and I don't think anyone does - but I am there to learn and I don't think there's anyone I currently spar with who intentionally tries to hurt anyone - hands dropped or not. If I do get hit, 99% of the time it IS my fault, and it won't happen again.

However, don't make me think you are intentionally trying to hurt me when we're training. KT

 

[loki09789]

I agree. I think there is a difference between 'making good contact' and being out of control during sparring. I hate to admit that there are times when I spar when I get so angry I want to hurt the person I'm working with. I never do, because 'my inner teddy bear' turns into the guardian angel on my shoulder telling me that it's wrong and this is not the time or place. [Hence my nickname 'Gentle Ben', since my rep is that I've never hurt anyone while sparring (at my present school).]

I've found it important in my martial arts career to maintain control -- of my temper, of my emotions, and of my body, not necessarily in that order. I don't enjoy getting hit - and I don't think anyone does - but I am there to learn and I don't think there's anyone I currently spar with who intentionally tries to hurt anyone - hands dropped or not. If I do get hit, 99% of the time it IS my fault, and it won't happen again.

However, don't make me think you are intentionally trying to hurt me when we're training. KT

Thanks KT. I get the Tazmanian Devil Rep at times during sparring or scenario drills, but I have worked extensively on knowing when to rein it in and when to let it out so to speak.

I argree about the control issue. I had a student I asked to leave the class because he just could not maitain personal or physical control (lipping tried to 'win' everything). I broke training down to ABC's with him:

ATTITUDE:
Good training attitude and cooperative personallity (even when it means off/uncooperative and never worked with training partners just 'acting like' you really want to take someone's head off for the sake of training)

BEARING:
Maintaining an outward appearance of respect, restraint and maturity even when your insides are boiling over in anger or crushed with insecurity and doubt. Why? Because sometimes you can effect your own mentallity by 'acting' in a way that you would like to feel instead of the way you feel in the moment. Taking control of your emotional/mental state by controlling your body language.

CONTROL:
Physical control and emotional mental control so that you are focused on training, focused on safety and focused on 'best performance' both mentally and physically. This is the part that can have a direct impact on kids and school work, work ethic and follow through or determination more than any other of the ABC's IMO.

On the relationships end: I think they are inevitable. You will develop relationships with your mates and instructors. If everyone is consenting adults or at least not statutorally inappropriate (minors dating minors and not 16 yr olds dating 25 year olds and such) AND can keep it off the floor - good or bad - that is up to those involved and not the business of anyone else.

IF students/instructors get romantically involved and are too lovie dovie on the floor or are acting out their break ups/fights on the floor, it is no different than any other distraction. Fix the problem, as the instructor, by reinforcing that the floor is for training and that outside of class is the place to deal with the rest of that stuff. It is not my place to dictate who can date who but it is my place, as an instructor to make sure that training time is for training and not group therapy.

There is no way to avoid the social/relationship aspect of a martial arts group. There is a way to ensure that it is not the centerpiece of the training group.

 

[satans.barber]

I've on occasion kicked guys in the groin thankfully with cups on, but it still made me feel bad. I was a lower level and my kicks were lower.

Heh, don't feel guilty about that! if it was a kenpo school we'd be teaching you to kick them in the nuts! We go for the groin all the time at our school, after all, it's the best target on a guy really. You can swing away at someone's head all you like, fracturing all your fingers and getting hit back, but why bother when a single snap kick to the groin gets the job done? Also, almost all untrained people that I've seen leave the groin wide open, so it's not like it's even a hard target to get. Further to this, from my experience, the untrained fighter doesn't dodge a groin strike to the side if they see it coming, they scootch backwards! So, plenty of follow through should see the job done.

At schools where they dont kick to the groin, like one I recently attended, their stance is also much too square on and the groin is wide open. This leads me to believe that you need to be taking regular groin shots to learn to stand in a proper stance. You can have your stance corrected all day long, but if nobody shows you why, you'll not form the habit permanently. Indeed, I've been kicked in the groin by teachers of my own to show my stance was wrong, rather than entering a lengthy discussion, and I've done this to my own students as well (only seniors I hasten to add).

I think it's also especially important for women to learn to kick the groin properly, and actively practice this (either on low pads or during techniques), as it's about the only advantage the average woman has over the average man in a fight. I don't mean any offence by that, it's just fact. Many women will be overpowered or outmatched very easily if attacked (despite the welcome and positive message than films like Enough portray), but if they can get a good groin strike in to their assailant it's going to buy them the time they need to get away hopefully.

Everyone in a contact sport should be wearing a full groin guard (men and women), if they aren't and they get hurt then there's really no excuse (unless it's your first lesson).

This is of course a view from a self defence point of view, I realise that TKD is part sport and part defence (another discussion...) so if you were referring to accients in competition where this isn't allowed, that's a different matter. :asian:

Ian.

:btg: :btg: :btg: :btg: :btg:

 

[Storm]

Guilty??? Hell yes.

This is something that I had huge trouble with when I first started training. I used to apologise to everyone I hit, even when it wasnt hard. If I did hit someone by mistake and it did cause a bit of pain, it would ruin my training not only for the night as I totally lost focus and wondered what the hell I was doing there if I had no control.

It took alot of coaching from my Instructors to get over this. We are not here to play tiddly winks so people are going to get hit on the odd occasion in error.

The other day Myself and another guy were practicing Storm Moves in a line, our bat (even though it was foam covered) happened to hit the head of someone next to us, and he was not very happy. It left a lovely red mark on his head. This was an accident though, not like we were going out to smack him. I still feel a bit guilty today.

I think how bad you feel depends alot on the reaction of the person who has been hit. If they brush it off you dont feel so bad. If they make a big deal about it and let everyone now what happened then it can make you feel very small even if it was unintentional.

 

[SMP]

If you accidentally hurt someone some degree of guilty feelings is appropriate. By hurt I mean injure, not just causing pain. Lower belts are expected to make mistakes when it comes to control and judgment. Higher belts should have control of a technique enough to not injure a training partner. Even in competition or on the street I believe a martial artist should have the control to use the level of force necessary to not cause unneeded injury.