Feeling bad about defending oneself with violence...

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
One should be very careful when coming to conclusions based on the Standford Prison Experiment, as there is much evidence that the experiment was very much tainted by some serious flaws.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4102

I didn't know any of that, thanks!

I don't think that the faults in SPE makes a house of cards out of what I was saying, however. I think it muddies the water and makes drawing any strong conclusions difficult.

That said, wouldn't you agree that some mental preparation is necessary in order to prepare for acts of violence? I would say that the guy who does his duty and stands by his convictions has probably done his fair share of mental preparation.
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
188
I didn't know any of that, thanks!

I don't think that the faults in SPE makes a house of cards out of what I was saying, however. I think it muddies the water and makes drawing any strong conclusions difficult.

That said, wouldn't you agree that some mental preparation is necessary in order to prepare for acts of violence? I would say that the guy who does his duty and stands by his convictions has probably done his fair share of mental preparation.

I agree completely with preparation being necessary to engage effectively in violence.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,386
Reaction score
4,702
Location
England
There is a great trend these days encouraged greatly by the psychiatric world to overthink and dwell on things that in the past we would have recognised and dealt with. This would have been without being told how we should feel rather than what we actually do. Far too much notice is paid to people who tell us we shuld be feeling this or that, that we suffer from lack of esteem etc, that there is something wrong with all of us and we must own up to this or we are' in denial.' What a phrase! We are in danger of being made mentally ill by the very people who are supposed to be healers.
There is a lot to be said for the expression 's**t happens, deal with it', we are all stronger than they'd like us to think, and as we know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There's a place for the mental health professionals dealing with very real problems but they should not be making problems where none exist. Yes you probably will feel bad at hurting someone,if you do think about what would have happened otherwise, if you don't just be glad you are fine. There's no proper way to deal with things only the most appropriate for you. Be confident in yourself and don't fret over feeliong or not feeling things the so called professional people tell you that you should. Counselling can be useful but only if used with judgement. You don't need if everytime something happens! If you feel okay about things you are okay!
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
552
Reaction score
11
Location
Woodbridge, Va
There is a great trend these days encouraged greatly by the psychiatric world to overthink and dwell on things that in the past we would have recognised and dealt with. This would have been without being told how we should feel rather than what we actually do. Far too much notice is paid to people who tell us we shuld be feeling this or that, that we suffer from lack of esteem etc, that there is something wrong with all of us and we must own up to this or we are' in denial.' What a phrase! We are in danger of being made mentally ill by the very people who are supposed to be healers.
There is a lot to be said for the expression 's**t happens, deal with it', we are all stronger than they'd like us to think, and as we know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There's a place for the mental health professionals dealing with very real problems but they should not be making problems where none exist. Yes you probably will feel bad at hurting someone,if you do think about what would have happened otherwise, if you don't just be glad you are fine. There's no proper way to deal with things only the most appropriate for you. Be confident in yourself and don't fret over feeliong or not feeling things the so called professional people tell you that you should. Counselling can be useful but only if used with judgement. You don't need if everytime something happens! If you feel okay about things you are okay!

I have a John Keegan book of war dispatches through the ages.

One of the best is from one of your countrymen who talks alot about what your saying.

I will look it up and direct you to it Monday or Tuesday.
He talks of the value of the good Ol British Stiff upper lip and driving on.
How the war vets of his generation were not met with "Ohg we are so sorry you had to go through all that, yaddah, yaddha and how after one of your Soccer stadium disasters some guy was so distressed he could not go to work, even though he knew no one in the inccident."
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
429
Location
Cromwell,CT


Very nice article. Good find Bill! :) Personally, I think this guy handled the situation just fine. He used enough force to end it...bottom line. Feeling bad?? IMHO, I dont think anyone should feel bad about defending themselves. I certainly dont. Sure, afterwards, when things settle down, you may play the incident over and over again in your head, may wonder if you should have done this instead of that. But no, to feel bad....no way. This guy, had he not defended himself, could've would up serously hurt or worse.

Glad all worked out well for him. :)
 

Bruno@MT

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
3,399
Reaction score
74
There is a great trend these days encouraged greatly by the psychiatric world to overthink and dwell on things that in the past we would have recognised and dealt with. This would have been without being told how we should feel rather than what we actually do. Far too much notice is paid to people who tell us we shuld be feeling this or that, that we suffer from lack of esteem etc, that there is something wrong with all of us and we must own up to this or we are' in denial.' What a phrase! We are in danger of being made mentally ill by the very people who are supposed to be healers.
There is a lot to be said for the expression 's**t happens, deal with it', we are all stronger than they'd like us to think, and as we know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There's a place for the mental health professionals dealing with very real problems but they should not be making problems where none exist. Yes you probably will feel bad at hurting someone,if you do think about what would have happened otherwise, if you don't just be glad you are fine. There's no proper way to deal with things only the most appropriate for you. Be confident in yourself and don't fret over feeliong or not feeling things the so called professional people tell you that you should. Counselling can be useful but only if used with judgement. You don't need if everytime something happens! If you feel okay about things you are okay!

That's one of the lessons I learned from my Grandmother. She lived through 2 world wars and their aftermath, and sacrificed the substantial wealth they had to get as many families through the war as possible while her husband was in a notorious concentration camp. She lost her husband at a young age as well.

And never once did I hear her complain. Not once. She just got on with life as well as should could, not worrying about things outside of her control, enjoying the positive, and taking the negative in stride.

Imo that is more how we should be. Not suing each other for trivial things, or holding grudges over little things, or complaining and endless doubting. **** happens deal with it and move on.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,386
Reaction score
4,702
Location
England
I have a John Keegan book of war dispatches through the ages.

One of the best is from one of your countrymen who talks alot about what your saying.

I will look it up and direct you to it Monday or Tuesday.
He talks of the value of the good Ol British Stiff upper lip and driving on.
How the war vets of his generation were not met with "Ohg we are so sorry you had to go through all that, yaddah, yaddha and how after one of your Soccer stadium disasters some guy was so distressed he could not go to work, even though he knew no one in the inccident."



If you feel genuinely distressed because you have had to hurt someone that's fine, you can work through it but if you are making yourself feel bad because you think you should feel that way because others are telling you that you should, you will end up being quite disturbed and probably ill.
The expectations of others can leave you feeling as if you are somehow not right in the head if you don't feel as they say you should.
My shift partner is an ex Para, went through the bad old days in N Ireland, yes Bloody Sunday and also Aden when that kicked off, killed people but never saw why he should feel bad about it, same with my other half in NI, Falklands etc and my instructor. No one said they should feel bad so they didn't, they weren't made to feel lesser people because they'd had to be violent. Some who did feel bad talked it out with their mates, got drunk and were fine, that's what mates are for.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,739
Reaction score
2,976
Location
Northern VA
I think it can be over done to say that it's human to feel bad. It's also human and perfectly justified to not feel bad.

I think the only real measure is if you did the objective right thing. There's nothing wrong having absolutely zero remorse about hurting someone else, if it was completely justified. There's also nothing wrong with feeling bad, either.

Society has developed this mindset, with police officers and soldiers, that you MUST feel bad about having to hurt or kill someone.........and if you don't there is something wrong with you. And that's not the case.

There is nothing wrong with satisfaction at a job well done and complete comfort with your own actions. There's also nothing wrong with feeling bad. Both are acceptable human responses, so long as the actions are reasonable and righteous.
It's human to react; it's human to respond.

That response may be some guilt or sorrow for having hurt someone. It might be joy and elation at being alive and uninjured. Depending on the circumstances, it might even be satisfaction or pleasure... (See the quote from Gen. Robert E. Lee in my signature...)

The response is too dependent on so many different factors that it's dangerous to overgeneralize. But, if an individual's response bothers or disturbs them -- that's something that they need to examine and figure out, and maybe even get help with.
 
Last edited:

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
188
It's human to react; it's human to respond.

That response may be some guilt or sorrow for having hurt someone. It might be joy and elation at being alive and uninjured. Depending on the circumstances, it might even be satisfaction or pleasure... (See the quote from Gen. Robert E. Lee in my signature...)

The response is too dependent on so many different factors that it's dangerous to overgeneralize. But, if an individual's response bothers or disturbs them -- that's something that they need to examine and figure out, and maybe even get help with.


Well, that's it.......if the response you have negatively effects your life and happiness, that is a problem. Otherwise, it's not an issue.

I look at those who are capable of dealing with extremely violent situations, doing what they have to do, and then living a happy and productive life afterwards, as being an example of a well adjusted psyche........ironically some folks have fixated on the fact that the opposite must be the case.......that unless they are racked with guilt that negatively effects your life, you aren't 'normal' or well adjusted...........i'm not sure where that comes from.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,739
Reaction score
2,976
Location
Northern VA
Well, that's it.......if the response you have negatively effects your life and happiness, that is a problem. Otherwise, it's not an issue.

I look at those who are capable of dealing with extremely violent situations, doing what they have to do, and then living a happy and productive life afterwards, as being an example of a well adjusted psyche........ironically some folks have fixated on the fact that the opposite must be the case.......that unless they are racked with guilt that negatively effects your life, you aren't 'normal' or well adjusted...........i'm not sure where that comes from.
I think it came from the 70s and 80s and the whole "sensitive guy" crap. It seems that, culturally, we moved away from accepting that people are different, that men and women are different, and that sometimes bad things just happen and you deal with it -- and that sometimes, bad things happen to bad people!

Instead, we've developed a culture where someone who defends themselves against a violent attack can get in at least as much, sometimes more!, trouble than the guy who attacked him, where everybody comes in first, and where it's a bad thing to accept that sometimes, it's just plain satisfying and fun to mix it up a little, and to thump someone who's earned it...

Like you, I've hurt people for real. Thankfully, haven't had to shoot anyone, but it's been damn close a few times. There's a certain pleasure and satisfaction in handling your business... It may not be politically correct to admit it -- but it's the truth.
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
188
I think it came from the 70s and 80s and the whole "sensitive guy" crap. It seems that, culturally, we moved away from accepting that people are different, that men and women are different, and that sometimes bad things just happen and you deal with it -- and that sometimes, bad things happen to bad people!

Instead, we've developed a culture where someone who defends themselves against a violent attack can get in at least as much, sometimes more!, trouble than the guy who attacked him, where everybody comes in first, and where it's a bad thing to accept that sometimes, it's just plain satisfying and fun to mix it up a little, and to thump someone who's earned it...

Like you, I've hurt people for real. Thankfully, haven't had to shoot anyone, but it's been damn close a few times. There's a certain pleasure and satisfaction in handling your business... It may not be politically correct to admit it -- but it's the truth.

I think you hit the nail on the head.
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
552
Reaction score
11
Location
Woodbridge, Va
A good buddy did 2 tours in Iraq and we were up late one night and he opend up aBOUT SOME OF THE THINGS HE DID AND SAW OVER THERE.

He said to me "You know why people feel guilty about killing the enemy?"
"It's because WHEN you do it, you fell ****ing great."
"I think that'as why alot of people feel bad later, because it felt good at the time."

His problems involve seeing children killed in a bombing and not being able to save them, (He is a Medic) he says he feels nothing for the one guy he knows he killed and the others he was shooting at and might have killed.
 

IcemanSK

El Conquistador nim!
MT Mentor
MTS Alumni
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
6,482
Reaction score
180
Location
Los Angeles, CA
For LEO's & folks in the military, violence & SD can be (& often is) part of the job. They need to develop a callus in order to survive. For the rest of us, it's natural to "feel bad" about having to defend one's self. Not even that "I shouldn't have done it" but maybe that "I shouldn't have had to" do it.

In this case, the victim was a 47 year old man. He's not a 20 year old testosterone-filled guy who may fight before he thinks. He's lived life a bit is thoughtful of the consequences of his actions. The attacker has no life-threatening injuries. That good. Hopefully, in time, this victim will be at peace with defending himself.
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
845
Location
Spokane Valley WA
Speaking of regret, I was in a fight once, and before I could get a couple licks in on the guy, the guy ended up knocking himself out cold. I decided to just let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak, and just pretended the incident didn't happen. I then lived to regret it; because, the guy still ran his mouth constantly, and what is worse, the Army ended up bunking us together! Oh, if I had only stomped the guy while he was down the Army would have protected me from him rather than subjecting me to him! Why , why , why? This is what they mean when they say nice guys finish last... or at least the saying applies in this context, as well.
sean
 
Top