Feeling bad about defending oneself with violence...

[Bill Mattocks]

Interesting news item. See what you think...

http://www.csindy.com/colorado/so-how-would-you-react/Content?oid=1761176

...
It's a Sunday afternoon, you're at a nice marketplace on Powers Boulevard, looking for a certain kind of shampoo, and suddenly a guy says angrily, "Hey, you're not the only one shopping here, *******."
You answer, "All yours," and start to move away, so the obnoxious person can find his shampoo. Except you look and see him coming at you, brandishing a pocket knife with about a 3-inch blade.
...
Greg Hartman's reaction two-plus weeks ago was different from most. He's a 47-year-old, second-degree Universal Kempo Karate black belt, and those instincts took over.
...
What happened over the next 3 to 5 seconds takes Hartman several minutes to explain. He grabbed the guy's wrist, hit him in the face with what's known as a "palm strike" and, when the man wouldn't drop the knife, Hartman pulled harder until the man's wrist popped, either broken or dislocated.
"He finally dropped the knife, and I kicked it behind me," Hartman says. "But then he started to come at me again, so I hit him with another palm strike, and from the sound of it, I'm pretty sure it broke his nose."
That ended the fight. The man stumbled away, and Hartman didn't try to stop him. Instead, he went home.
...
"I've spent a lot of time second-guessing myself and feeling crappy about it," says Hartman, who also has multiple sclerosis. "I'm thankful I had the tools when the situation arose, but I would much rather have avoided the whole thing. One friend said it could've been somebody else, and somebody would've been in jail with a victim injured or dead.
"Now I understand why they make cops go to a counselor after they have to shoot someone. I don't think people appreciate them enough. There's a lot of guilt, even though you did nothing wrong, and you wonder if it was really necessary. But a 3-inch blade can do a lot of damage if somebody stabs you in the right place."
We talked more about the police analogy, and how he also knows more now about how soldiers might feel after combat. But it bothers him that he would "not feel very confident" about being able to identify his attacker in a lineup or a courtroom. He just remembers several details: white male, maybe 35 to 40 years old, short brown hair, hoodie, jeans.
"I didn't really look," he admits. "I've scolded myself about not being more alert. I really wish I could've avoided it."

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think its very common to second guess yourself after hurting someone. Compassion is a virtue.
Sean

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I felt a little bad over what happend last week, more because the guy I actually fought was not the original offender but someone it seems was kind of draggged into it under false info. (It's also why I used just enough force instead of my old instinct to hurt them untill they can't possably hurt me)

I had some second guesses about how I confronted the idiots with the jerk playing Starsky and Hutch in front of my home where my kids play.

Kind of torn between not wanting to cause trouble but also the whole If good men do nothing, things get worse mentality.

Still the guy with the car has been driving like Grandma ever sense and I have not seen the dudes from outside of our hood that he brought in, so mission accomplished, just wish they would have listend to reason when I treid to be decent about it.

I have felt guilt and remorese about a few situations that ended in violence in the past as well.

I don't know if I would feel it in the situation in the OP, bastard tried to knife him over nothing, pretty evil, but still I can see it, sounds like he is a good man with a heart.
Nothing wrong with that, we need more of it.

 

[Tez3]

Of course he'd have recognised his attacker, he'd have been the one with the flat face, broken nose and wrist!!

Feeling bad after hurting someone is human it's more worrying when you've hurt someone and gone 'Yeah' love it! but then again........ there is a certain satisfaction if not glee to know you hurt someone who had planned to hurt, or worse, kill you.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I have never in my life hurt someone. yelled at someone or discreetly accessed a concealed weapon in prep for immediate use on someone or a group of someones ( Thank all that's holy each of THOSE situations ended before that became necessary) and *not* felt shakey pukey bad over it later.

But it's never stopped me from doing what is necessary either.

 

[MA-Caver]

Compassion may be a virtue but the guy was being a total ***.
Pulling a knife on someone is asking for it, you'd better be ready to go all the way and deal with whatever consequences there may be. Instead of being a 2nd BB he could've had a gun, hows about that friends and neighbors? Being belligerent and continuing to do so when the other person concedes to you is just being a plain ***. They deserve no compassion or understanding. Just being a jerk.
If you're mad about something then don't take it out on a random face in the crowd, just because they happen to be in your way doing the same thing you're doing... shopping.

Whenever I fought anyone and hurt them... I never felt bad for doing so. A fight is a fight and 98% of the fights I've been in were defensive so IMO they got what was coming to them. The other 2% it was either initiate the fight or get beaten up by their friends waiting.

No, it's not good to hurt ANYONE even a jerk... but when they ask for it and keep on asking for it... hey (holds out a piece of paper) here's your sign.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Compassion may be a virtue but the guy was being a total ***.
Pulling a knife on someone is asking for it, you'd better be ready to go all the way and deal with whatever consequences there may be. Instead of being a 2nd BB he could've had a gun, hows about that friends and neighbors? Being belligerent and continuing to do so when the other person concedes to you is just being a plain ***. They deserve no compassion or understanding. Just being a jerk.
If you're mad about something then don't take it out on a random face in the crowd, just because they happen to be in your way doing the same thing you're doing... shopping.

Whenever I fought anyone and hurt them... I never felt bad for doing so. A fight is a fight and 98% of the fights I've been in were defensive so IMO they got what was coming to them. The other 2% it was either initiate the fight or get beaten up by their friends waiting.

No, it's not good to hurt ANYONE even a jerk... but when they ask for it and keep on asking for it... hey (holds out a piece of paper) here's your sign.

Feeling bad about it is nothing to do with sympathy for THEM: it's the sign that YOU are still sane. It's not the same as being "Sorry" for defending yourself; you just feel a primal, general revulsion over committing serious violence against another human, because feeling that is sane and normal, and does not automatically equate with "remorse" necessarily.
---------------------------------------------------------

Richard Miller(Billy Zane): When the "rush" is over, it hurts. Doesn't it?
Thomas Beckett( Tom Berenger): What you're feeling now ain't the worst pain. The worst thing is not feeling the hurt anymore.

--Sniper

 

[seasoned]

It's basically what the majority of us train for. A lot of us wonder just what we would do if the situation ever happened. I guess when I read about encounters such as this, a lot of times the victim is the wrong person, but not this time. If in my heart I knew I wasn't taking advantage of someone and they totally deserved an a- - whipping I would not feel any remorse, I hope.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Of course he'd have recognised his attacker, he'd have been the one with the flat face, broken nose and wrist!!

Feeling bad after hurting someone is human it's more worrying when you've hurt someone and gone 'Yeah' love it! but then again........ there is a certain satisfaction if not glee to know you hurt someone who had planned to hurt, or worse, kill you.

I think it can be over done to say that it's human to feel bad. It's also human and perfectly justified to not feel bad.

I think the only real measure is if you did the objective right thing. There's nothing wrong having absolutely zero remorse about hurting someone else, if it was completely justified. There's also nothing wrong with feeling bad, either.

Society has developed this mindset, with police officers and soldiers, that you MUST feel bad about having to hurt or kill someone.........and if you don't there is something wrong with you. And that's not the case.

There is nothing wrong with satisfaction at a job well done and complete comfort with your own actions. There's also nothing wrong with feeling bad. Both are acceptable human responses, so long as the actions are reasonable and righteous.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's basically what the majority of us train for. A lot of us wonder just what we would do if the situation ever happened. I guess when I read about encounters such as this, a lot of times the victim is the wrong person, but not this time. If in my heart I knew I wasn't taking advantage of someone and they totally deserved an a- - whipping I would not feel any remorse, I hope.

I've never taken anyone's life, but I have come damn close, and have caused damaged to individuals in completely justifiable situations, and I have never felt remorse for righteous actions. I was right, I knew I was right, they were wrong, and that was all there was to it.....I don't hurt innocent people, I don't hurt folks who are not, by their actions, justifying violence..........and I sleep the sleep of the just and righteous....so I know exactly where you're coming from.


For me, the issue seems to be the perception, on some folks part, that empathy is an either or proposition......you either have empathy or you don't..........the reality is that empathy is a scale. Some of us have less empathy than others, but not having so high a degree of empathy that you have to feel bad for every person, no matter how wrong they are, doesn't make you a bad person. I reserve my empathy for those who are worthy of it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Feeling bad about it is nothing to do with sympathy for THEM: it's the sign that YOU are still sane. It's not the same as being "Sorry" for defending yourself; you just feel a primal, general revulsion over committing serious violence against another human, because feeling that is sane and normal, and does not automatically equate with "remorse" necessarily.
---------------------------------------------------------

Richard Miller(Billy Zane): When the "rush" is over, it hurts. Doesn't it?
Thomas Beckett( Tom Berenger): What you're feeling now ain't the worst pain. The worst thing is not feeling the hurt anymore.

--Sniper

See, that's where I have to disagree with you.........not feeling remorse for righteous action doesn't make you 'insane' or 'abnormal' anymore than feeling remorse does. Both are completely normal.

I think it's important to reinforce that, because many soldiers and police officers are given a message that a MUST feel bad, and if they don't there is something wrong with them, and that in and of itself can cause problems.


One could even argue that a happy life free from guilt and regret is more mentally healthy and sound than one racked with guilt..........do the right thing, have confidence in yourself, and don't regret anything. Regret is baggage.


I think the problem is other people...........many folks are intimidated by the thought of individuals who are capable of violence without remorse, no matter how justified, and feel the need to push guilt on to those individuals who use violence, even when not only justified, but required by the very people who are wishing guilt on them.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think the problem is other people...........many folks are intimidated by the thought of individuals who are capable of violence without remorse, no matter how justified, and feel the need to push guilt on to those individuals who use violence, even when not only justified, but required by the very people who are wishing guilt on them.

There is a reason why warriors paint themselves, wear masks, or wear uniforms. Humans want to disassociate themselves from the violence. If I were attacked after posting this and I survived the attack and killed my attacker, that is completely separate from putting on a uniform and beating the hell out of an "enemy" from this or that tribe. People have always been traumatized by the inability to make this distinction. Our ancestors knew this and devised all sorts of strategies to overcome it. In Karate, The Bubishi specifically recognizes this by providing a grounding in moral philosophy and healing arts.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There is a reason why warriors paint themselves, wear masks, or wear uniforms. Humans want to disassociate themselves from the violence. If I were attacked after posting this and I survived the attack and killed my attacker, that is completely separate from putting on a uniform and beating the hell out of an "enemy" from this or that tribe. People have always been traumatized by the inability to make this distinction. Our ancestors knew this and devised all sorts of strategies to overcome it. In Karate, The Bubishi specifically recognizes this by providing a grounding in moral philosophy and healing arts.

Some humans want to disassociate themselves from the violence. One should be careful when making generalizations, however, as most of what we consider 'normal' is merely the average person.

The reality is that there are some folks who are completely well adjusted, law abiding, good and decent folks........who, under the right, justified and appropriate circumstances, are stone cold killers without an ounce of remorse, and there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a sense that comes from our Judeo-Christian ethos that makes many of us uncomfortable with that reality, as we believe that we 'should' feel guilty, and that others should as well. But the truth is a bit more complicated than that.

And the reaction to criminal violence makes is even more complicated.........many folks feel LESS empathy toward criminal recipients of violence than enemy combatants, as the behavior of an enemy combatant is quite empathic in that he is doing EXACTLY the same thing you are trying to do, whereas a criminal predator is not. Therefore, for a great number of folks, the criminal predator is a far less sympathetic target of violence PRECISELY because most of us would not do what they are doing, whereas we can understand the actions of an enemy combatant.......and it is that identification that creates empathy.

 

[knuckleheader]

Confused one says,

Better to feel guilty about hurting an attacker than to be hurting from being the victim.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

See, that's where I have to disagree with you.........not feeling remorse for righteous action doesn't make you 'insane' or 'abnormal' anymore than feeling remorse does. Both are completely normal.

I think it's important to reinforce that, because many soldiers and police officers are given a message that a MUST feel bad, and if they don't there is something wrong with them, and that in and of itself can cause problems.


One could even argue that a happy life free from guilt and regret is more mentally healthy and sound than one racked with guilt..........do the right thing, have confidence in yourself, and don't regret anything. Regret is baggage.


I think the problem is other people...........many folks are intimidated by the thought of individuals who are capable of violence without remorse, no matter how justified, and feel the need to push guilt on to those individuals who use violence, even when not only justified, but required by the very people who are wishing guilt on them.

I get what you're saying and maybe I wasn't clear enough to begin with:

I wasn't talking about feeling "sorry" for having successfully repelled boarders, only talking in general about the sudden shock at overcoming the natural human aversion to serious (non-social/unrelated to status) violence agaisnt a fellow human that as you point out is stronger in some than others.

 

[Omar B]

I can totally understand feeling bad. First time I defended myself from 2 would be thieves I felt awful. Not only was the attack on my person a violation that would normally make someone a bit emotional, but the fact that I struck back hurting them both made me feel pretty badly too.

 

[Makalakumu]

Some humans want to disassociate themselves from the violence. One should be careful when making generalizations, however, as most of what we consider 'normal' is merely the average person.

The reality is that there are some folks who are completely well adjusted, law abiding, good and decent folks........who, under the right, justified and appropriate circumstances, are stone cold killers without an ounce of remorse, and there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a sense that comes from our Judeo-Christian ethos that makes many of us uncomfortable with that reality, as we believe that we 'should' feel guilty, and that others should as well. But the truth is a bit more complicated than that.

And the reaction to criminal violence makes is even more complicated.........many folks feel LESS empathy toward criminal recipients of violence than enemy combatants, as the behavior of an enemy combatant is quite empathic in that he is doing EXACTLY the same thing you are trying to do, whereas a criminal predator is not. Therefore, for a great number of folks, the criminal predator is a far less sympathetic target of violence PRECISELY because most of us would not do what they are doing, whereas we can understand the actions of an enemy combatant.......and it is that identification that creates empathy.

Check out this talk. He makes a number of good points that are salient to this discussion.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html

1. The line between good and evil is permeable.
2. Good people can transform themselves into perpetrators of evil.
3. People have devised all sorts of strategies to allow themselves to commit all sorts of unspeakable horrors to each other.

So, from my perspective, unless you have prepared yourself beforehand, you probably will feel "bad" about using violence even if it is justified. It's not a universal law, but it applies so much that in old school karate, this preparation comprised a large amount of your training.

 

[Tez3]

Being honest I have never felt bad about hurting anyone. If it's accidental while sparring I still don't feel 'bad', it's accidental, I didn't mean to do it so while I would have preferred it didn't happen I'm not going to feel bad about it, if it's the other way round I wouldn't like anyone made to feel bad because they'd hurt me, it's consensual violence, we enjoy it, though we have people who do try to make out we are 'bad' for enjoying it, that we aren't normal.
If it's not accidental and someone has tried to hurt me and they've been hurt instead I don't feel bad at all, relieved, glad to be alive etc but never 'bad' but that's me, I can't speak for others.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I get what you're saying and maybe I wasn't clear enough to begin with:

I wasn't talking about feeling "sorry" for having successfully repelled boarders, only talking in general about the sudden shock at overcoming the natural human aversion to serious (non-social/unrelated to status) violence agaisnt a fellow human that as you point out is stronger in some than others.

True enough.......and as society continues to evolve, that resistance to human aggression will likely increase.

This seems to be a cultural wide phenomenon among all civil societies.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Check out this talk. He makes a number of good points that are salient to this discussion.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html

1. The line between good and evil is permeable.
2. Good people can transform themselves into perpetrators of evil.
3. People have devised all sorts of strategies to allow themselves to commit all sorts of unspeakable horrors to each other.

So, from my perspective, unless you have prepared yourself beforehand, you probably will feel "bad" about using violence even if it is justified. It's not a universal law, but it applies so much that in old school karate, this preparation comprised a large amount of your training.

One should be very careful when coming to conclusions based on the Standford Prison Experiment, as there is much evidence that the experiment was very much tainted by some serious flaws.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4102