Do "untrained" assailents exist?

[Makalakumu]

Choki Motobu, a famous master in karate, makes the claim that karate works best against an untrained assailent or one that is unfamiliar with the methods that you are employing. Given the preponderance of martial arts in our society and the fact that bad guys usually have at least a couple of fights under their belt, how realistic is it to assume that anyone is untrained?

 

[Flying Crane]

any system works best against an opponent/enemy who is not familiar with it.

Having experience (even a lot of experience) with fighting is not the same as being trained or skilled. Experience and raw aggression can carry one far in fighting, can override an opponent who is highly trained, even highly skilled, but lacks experience and attitude/aggression.

Are the bad guys truly trained and skilled, or just experienced and aggressive? I dunno. I suspect most of the true bad guys are the latter and not the former, but I'm sure there are exceptions.

 

[zDom]

When I was coming up through the ranks, I regularly hung out with a DJ friend at the bar he was working from about 11 p.m. till close studying bar fights. I came to the conclusion that most of the people who are looking for a fight or likely to get in one rely on their victim not fighting back. Their skills were generally.. poor.

So realistic? Yeah. Seems like trained people tend to get into physical conflicts less often.

BUT: should always assume it is a Worst Case Scenario: highly trained, highly skilled fighter.

That's my opinion and your mileage may vary.

 

[Twin Fist]

agreed, most people simply can not fight. not the way a martial artist thinks of fighting. Now really bad dudes? they have been in a lot of fights, but they will most likely be armed, so thats a whole other subject.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, there is such thing.

But A: (And this has already been mentioned) TKD Punches used in Boxing tend to be rather effective, as a one off. Because low and behold, its slightly confusing for the other Person. Much like if You matched up Judo and JJ. Theyd confuse the hell out of each other, then the best Man would Win. This is perhaps a benefit of MMA. (Getting rid of that, I mean)

B: There ARE Untrained Assailants. Do You seriously think that out of the Billions of Male Humans on Earth, that Theyve all been to a Martial Arts Establishment, Boxing/MMA/WHATEVER Gym? Its as improbable as it is certainly false. And low and behold, some of them get into Fights. (Im not addressing You. Or anyone. When I said, 'Do You seriously think'. Read it slightly more perspectively. It just comes out a bit weird in text)

C: Say someones some Thug, who brawls alot with other Thugs. This will not make Him a better Fighter, by a longshot. In order to have not been beaten into Hospital, He was ALREADY a Good Fighter. It comes easily to some People. What He is, is an Experienced Fighter. Not a better one.

D: Cardio plays a tremendous role, as does Conditioning. The best Street-Warrior-Killing-Machine-Super-Ultra-Mega-Dude everyone seems to think Theyd have to Brawl with for some silly reason, becomes worthless and pathetic if His Arms suddenly cant propel themselves forward properly, or His Ribs and Knees are all smacked in. Cardio doesnt just have to mean Exhaustion - Consider that the Arms tend to become tired before the Body does. And even if they can keep it up, there will be very little Power coming out of them.

As a closing statement, assuming anyone is Untrained is Ignorant, no offense to anyone. Because the one time You just think, "Oh, He knows nothing." is the day He probably will wind up being Trained.
I can find You a Story about a Mugger who tried to Rob a Blind Man. The Blind Man was a Blind Judo Practitioner, and essentially walked away with a couple of bruises.
Its generally just a bad idea to assume stuff.

 

[MJS]

Choki Motobu, a famous master in karate, makes the claim that karate works best against an untrained assailent or one that is unfamiliar with the methods that you are employing. Given the preponderance of martial arts in our society and the fact that bad guys usually have at least a couple of fights under their belt, how realistic is it to assume that anyone is untrained?

IMO, I think the safe bet is to train as realistically as possible. Yes, I know, we'll never get 100% reality, but we can do our best to attempt it. I also think that until we know otherwise, its always best to assume that everyone is trained. I think a LEO would be foolish to assume that the guy he stopped is unarmed. You just never know, so why not take the precautions?

I think that with the popularity of the UFC, there are alot of people hitting the gyms and possibly even trying to act like their favorite fighter and do some backyard 'training.' Whatever the case may be, this is why, for me at least, I find a huge value in cross training. Not only does it get you more experience, but it also gets you familiar with how others fight. But as Mike (FC) said, theres also alot of people out there who're trained, but have never fought, so despite their 'training' they may be untrained, when it comes time to put it to the test.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Untrained assailants do exist because they don't practice their techniques to be well skilled. A Karateka, however, practices to better his or her techniques to win in a real life confrontation.

 

[Cyriacus]

Untrained assailants do exist because they don't practice their techniques to be well skilled. A Karateka, however, practices to better his or her techniques to win in a real life confrontation.

They may well however work over a Punching Bag, offering a bit of Power, Speed, and Cardio.

 

[oftheherd1]

any system works best against an opponent/enemy who is not familiar with it.

Having experience (even a lot of experience) with fighting is not the same as being trained or skilled. Experience and raw aggression can carry one far in fighting, can override an opponent who is highly trained, even highly skilled, but lacks experience and attitude/aggression.

Are the bad guys truly trained and skilled, or just experienced and aggressive? I dunno. I suspect most of the true bad guys are the latter and not the former, but I'm sure there are exceptions.

All very true. And the reason it is difficult to predict how a fight is going to end up until it is over.

 

[Chris Parker]

Do untrained assailants/attackers/bad guys exist? Absolutely, and I think you'll find they're actually the vast majority. Head to a prison, and count the numbers of detainees practicing their forms, or ask them their opinion of "martial artists" as opponents. There's not really much doubt about it, when it all comes down.

However, the big problem comes when people start assuming some rather unrealistic things about such attackers. Namely, that untrained equals unskilled, that untrained equals not dangerous, and possibly worst of all, that a response against a trained attacker works just as well, if not better, against a non-trained attacker. In other words, this:

BUT: should always assume it is a Worst Case Scenario: highly trained, highly skilled fighter.

An untrained attacker is different to a trained attacker in their tactics, movements, and responses/reactions. If your training is geared around "highly trained" as a "worst case scenario", and therefore doesn't deal in the realities of an untrained attacker, you may just find that your "worst case scenario" simply isn't.

A trained attacker will be consistent (in the types of attacks they use, the power source used, the angling used, and so on), they will do things that don't sacrifice their balance, which will keep their advance (closing ranges) slower. In fact, they typically won't want to change ranges at all, instead wanting to keep to the range that they are trained in. They will have a "comfort zone", and not want to go outside of that. There will also be "gaps", which are present in every form of training, and can be seen and exploited.

An untrained attacker, though, will be inconsistent. They will be unrefined, leading to less balance, but more "commitment" to injuring you. They will sacrifice balance for more power, which will have them close on you far faster than a "trained" martial artist would. And they will close the distance, even if it's not something they intend, with the range changing far faster than most realize. They won't be concerned with a "comfort zone", as they won't really have thought much about their "approach" to combat, instead just knowing that if they hit you so much and so fast that you don't get a chance to retaliate, that's a good thing. The "gaps" that are there will be much harder to see against all the other unrefined actions they are using. There will also be a much greater chance that they have some advantage that is very difficult to overcome, whether it is drugs, alcohol, friends, experience at hurting people, a weapon, or just plain good old fashioned brawn. After all, they're not going to attack if they think it's a fair fight, now, are they?

When you learn a martial art, you are learning to deal with a trained attack. There's really no getting around that, as your attackers are your fellow students, trained in the same system you are. And many systems use their own techniques as the "attacking" methods... which is teaching you the attacking methods of that system. And that's great. But it doesn't really tell you how to deal with the person who isn't trained, who doesn't "attack the right way", who doesn't respond to the techniques "correctly", and who does use a defence (or attack) that is very different to what you've experienced so far. So if you're going to even start thinking of your training as dealing in self defence against an attack, you need to come to an understanding of what the "untrained" attackers are actually like. They are not the same as trained attackers, only easier. In some ways they can be far more dangerous... especially to a martial artist who thinks that, because he can deal with a sparring session against people using the same techniques, strategies, tactics, angling, distancing, timing, range, and weapons as themselves, they can take on a real attack.

Honestly, the easiest type of person to go up against is the guy who isn't trained, but watches UFC and thinks he can do it. They will come in with unrefined versions of known attacks, which are easy to deal with. It's the seasoned "street fighter" who couldn't give a damn about that pajama-wearing fruity stuff, or the rolling around on the ground with a guy in his shorts, who you need to be wary of. They'll take your head off before you realize you're in a fight.

None of this is to say that a trained attacker isn't dangerous, just to point out that an untrained one isn't "easier". They're also very dangerous, but it's a different kind of dangerous. Mistaking one for a form of the other can be a very costly mistake.

Oh, and in regards to the quote that started this, from Choki Motobu, such things really should be looked at with a cultural context as well. The types of untrained violence on Okinawa in the late 19th and early 20th Century wouldn't bear much resemblance to the forms of assaults and attacks found in a 21st Century Western culture, such as the US, or Australia. And even between those two countries, there can be some pretty big gaps as well.

 

[MJS]

Well, as usual Chris....you hit the nail on the head....lol. Couldn't agree more with what you said regarding how the attacks are thrown. More than once, when teaching beginners, I'd have one of them punch me. Needless to say, I'd always have to be more on guard than usual, due to the way they'd attack. Thats the problem...you get so accustomed to the way people attack, you forget that those people attacking are just what you said...trained in the same art. This is probably one of the reasons why during a seminar, the inst. will tend to use one of his students rather than someone random. Can't look bad in front of everyone...lol...in the event the random person doesnt attack right.

But nonetheless, we, as MAists, should be able to adapt. Those times that I've got some whacky punch thrown at me, I've had to abandon the tech. and do something else, to compensate for what was happening.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think most people don't know how to fight. They've seen movies, they've watched UFC. They may have fought; that doesn't mean they know how. Of those who are untrained and know how to fight, they're often very dangerous individuals. A good street fighter is a good fighter; period. Just my 2 cents.

Also, many martial artists don't know to fight either.

 

[Steve]

It's well known in BJJ that white belts are the most dangerous guys to spar with.

 

[Chris Parker]

I get the feeling you're being a little sarcastic, there, Steve, in which case there's a few things I'd mention.

Sparring, or rolling, in a BJJ class will be geared around the ruleset established within that class, and it will naturally be those who are most familiar and experienced within that ruleset that are the most likely to be successful. A white belt will have the least experience, but will be attempting to stay within the rules. So the idea of "sparring" isn't really the same thing as being discussed in regards to an untrained assailant.

To clarify, though, there is a difference between an "untrained" assailant, and a martial arts newbie, who is unskilled. The untrained assailant is concerned with hurting someone, and knows what they're doing. The unskilled newbie, on the other hand, isn't wanting to "hurt" anyone (typically), and doesn't know what they're doing. That makes them very different types of people to handle.

 

[zDom]

We know that in TKD/HKD, too (with the other "most dangerous" being those crazy red belts who want to prove they are black belt material )

I love sparring white belts because I have long realized it most closely replicates what I am likely to find "on the street" – wild attacks, trying to catch kicks, etc.

edit: was supposed to quote the BJJ/white belt comment. Fail.

 

[shihansmurf]

I think most people don't know how to fight. They've seen movies, they've watched UFC. They may have fought; that doesn't mean they know how. Of those who are untrained and know how to fight, they're often very dangerous individuals. A good street fighter is a good fighter; period. Just my 2 cents.

Also, many martial artists don't know to fight either.

True on all counts.

I tell my students that the only assumption that they have the luxury of making is the any opponent they encounter is better then they are. Presume that the enemy is the Baddest Dude on the Earth and you're prepared. Thinking that anyone throwing a punch at you is an unskilled novice is one of the easiest paths to a hospital bed or coffin.

Just a thought,
Mark

 

[shihansmurf]

It's well known in BJJ that white belts are the most dangerous guys to spar with.

Seems pretty well true in most Arts. I get banged up by beginners a hell of a lot more often than by other black belts. Professional courtesy, maybe.

Mark