Do self defense programs work?

[Orion Nebula]

I don't. There's significant evidence that moderate voices are not what you find on those kinds of media (this is what I was saying before about the bias of sources), which I think is what you were getting at.


That's what I was getting at earlier about cultural issues. There are definitely cultures that have okayed rape (many in the past, some still extant). That's something that can definitely (and demonstrably) be changed by education and social pressure. There's a point at which it's not the culture, but the individual, and I'm not aware of any evidence that education is effective beyond that point (I'd be happy to be wrong about that). Classifying all of these together makes it difficult to discuss the difficulties around that latter category.

Yep, that's exactly what I was getting at about social media - definitely not moderate!

That's a really good point about what types of culture can be changed by education. As @hoshin1600 said, Kenyan and US cultures are very different. I don't have any examples for you of education working in a society like what we have in the US. I wonder if any universities have data on that since a lot of them are requiring incoming students to go through consent training, although I'm not sure how effective it is to educate people about these sorts of things once they're adults. I'm under the impression that beliefs and values get ingrained earlier in life, but then again, I've read that college students also have a tendency to become more liberal, so I guess I have no idea.

 

[drop bear]

men at large are responsible for the actions of some men.

And the dichotomy is that to meet the expectation and act against that perceived toxic masculinity. It is super handy to be really good at the same sort of masculinity that is frowned upon.

Or if I want to try to stop a rape I should be prepared to bust some skulls.

 

[Steve]

Yep, that's exactly what I was getting at about social media - definitely not moderate!

That's a really good point about what types of culture can be changed by education. As @hoshin1600 said, Kenyan and US cultures are very different. I don't have any examples for you of education working in a society like what we have in the US. I wonder if any universities have data on that since a lot of them are requiring incoming students to go through consent training, although I'm not sure how effective it is to educate people about these sorts of things once they're adults. I'm under the impression that beliefs and values get ingrained earlier in life, but then again, I've read that college students also have a tendency to become more liberal, so I guess I have no idea.

Smoking rates is an example, until vaping slipped into the same niche. Pregnancy rates drop when education is discussed.

I may be missing your point but I can think of many examples of what I think you're talking about.

 

[hoshin1600]

often MA instructors and others make assumptions on how sexual assault will occur. our own narrative on what will happen and how are often based on fiction. wouldnt it be great if we knew exactly what the rapist was thinking and could explain what he would do and how he would select victims directly from the offenders themselves ? its been done and we know. google is a wonderful thing, so is a book store. if only more people would do the work to find out.
the one area that is difficult to figure out is young teens up to college age. its like my son deciding to bounce marbles off the TV screen. what the heck were you thinking of course the screen was going to break?! he wasnt.thinking. it didnt occur to him that there could be undesirable consequences. so for young people i do think that education on sexual consent has some value. but after the establishment of right and wrong is there we are dealing with predatory tendencies. when talking about predators we are not talking about all men, we are talking about a small percentage. small enough that in prisons chomo's and rapists are ostracized and singled out for "splitting their wigs" even the most violent offenders in prison know rape is not acceptable.
i think the best defense is prevention and if that doesnt work skills can help if there is a violent component to the assault (which not all will)

 

[Tez3]

often MA instructors and others make assumptions on how sexual assault will occur. our own narrative on what will happen and how are often based on fiction. wouldnt it be great if we knew exactly what the rapist was thinking and could explain what he would do and how he would select victims directly from the offenders themselves

If you look at the actual facts of rape you will see that in 90% of cases the victim knew the rapists, the myth of walking alone along a dark alley and being attacked by a stranger is a dangerous one, the truth is a female will most likely be raped by someone she knows, is friendly with or even close to. it's not something young people do because they make a mistake, thinking that way is a huge problem, the 'boys will be boys' thinking that means young men get away with rape, people need to stop thinking rape is 'accidental' it's not. When a young man rapes a drunk female, or forces her, it's not a mistake made by youth, it's a criminal act. While people excuse youth as a reason for assault rapists will always get away with their crimes.
Sexual Assault Perpetrators’ Justifications for Their Actions: Relationships to Rape Supportive Attitudes, Incident Characteristics, and Future Perpetration

Myths about rape

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Smoking rates is an example, until vaping slipped into the same niche. Pregnancy rates drop when education is discussed.

I may be missing your point but I can think of many examples of what I think you're talking about.

Both of those seem to be about changing a prevailing attitude. I think it's a strong analogy for the culture in the past in the US (when the general public was much more likely to buy the "she was asking for it - look at how she dressed" argument). To that extent, education has worked. The question is whether there's still enough toxic prevailing attitude for more progress to be made.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

often MA instructors and others make assumptions on how sexual assault will occur. our own narrative on what will happen and how are often based on fiction. wouldnt it be great if we knew exactly what the rapist was thinking and could explain what he would do and how he would select victims directly from the offenders themselves ? its been done and we know. google is a wonderful thing, so is a book store. if only more people would do the work to find out.
the one area that is difficult to figure out is young teens up to college age. its like my son deciding to bounce marbles off the TV screen. what the heck were you thinking of course the screen was going to break?! he wasnt.thinking. it didnt occur to him that there could be undesirable consequences. so for young people i do think that education on sexual consent has some value. but after the establishment of right and wrong is there we are dealing with predatory tendencies. when talking about predators we are not talking about all men, we are talking about a small percentage. small enough that in prisons chomo's and rapists are ostracized and singled out for "splitting their wigs" even the most violent offenders in prison know rape is not acceptable.
i think the best defense is prevention and if that doesnt work skills can help if there is a violent component to the assault (which not all will)

Yeah, those adolescents are missing a key part of reasoning. Consequence consideration functions (especially for long-term consequences) develop late in the brain, and it's why adults so often ask "Why did you do that?" (because it seems to the adult brain to be a very simple question) and the teen says, "I don't know." (because to their brain it's a question that doesn't make much sense).

EDIT (clicked too soon): I keep meaning to look and see if there's a common lack of that functionality among some identifiable population of offenders. I assume some research has been done in that area, but haven't looked.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you look at the actual facts of rape you will see that in 90% of cases the victim knew the rapists, the myth of walking alone along a dark alley and being attacked by a stranger is a dangerous one, the truth is a female will most likely be raped by someone she knows, is friendly with or even close to. it's not something young people do because they make a mistake, thinking that way is a huge problem, the 'boys will be boys' thinking that means young men get away with rape, people need to stop thinking rape is 'accidental' it's not. When a young man rapes a drunk female, or forces her, it's not a mistake made by youth, it's a criminal act. While people excuse youth as a reason for assault rapists will always get away with their crimes.
Sexual Assault Perpetrators’ Justifications for Their Actions: Relationships to Rape Supportive Attitudes, Incident Characteristics, and Future Perpetration

Myths about rape

I agree with most of what you say here, Tez. I just want to point out that mistakes and criminal acts are not mutually exclusive. Some rape isn't a power thing (another common myth), but simply a failure to recognize the other person's lack of consent/ability to refuse. Which is criminal, because we need to defend that person's right to consent and refuse. But it is still, from the offender's standpoint, sometimes a mistake.

(It might be we could find a way to argue it's always a mistake, but that seems like it'd be a stretch, at best.)

 

[Tez3]

The question is whether there's still enough toxic prevailing attitude for more progress to be made.

You have a president who likes to grab women's genitals and a judge who sexually assaulted a female when he was younger and got away with it. You have numerous 'celebrities' up on charges of sexual assault, you have the Incel movement, a vice President who refuses to be alone with women because they are 'dangerous', a man who gets off with sexual assault because he's a good swimmer ( many other cases too), the metoo movement, politicians who sexually assault women ( we get shocked when one politician gets called on his behaviour dear lord you have loads of them) so just how much more toxic do you want it to get before you start actually thinking there's a problem.
Sexual assault and harassment in American politics (2017-2018) - Ballotpedia

Not mention the catcalling, the wandering hands, the peeking down women's tops, the rubbing up against women, the sexual suggestions, the groping that happens every single day to the majority of women. Most women are so used to it they don't even consider it assault anymore and shrug it off. please don't say it doesn't happen, it does, a lot.

Women don't ever think being assaulted or raped was just someone who made a mistake, ever. Most men don't do this because it's easy not to assault or rape, anything else is just the rapist's excuse.

 

[hoshin1600]

i was going to respond to a lot of this but ....no.. its just too ridiculous.

 

[hoshin1600]

I keep meaning to look and see if there's a common lack of that functionality among some identifiable population of offenders. I assume some research has been done in that area, but haven't looked.

i dont have the facts or studies on hand but yes the current thought as i seem to remember is that a large portion of criminals have difficulty in cognitive reasoning of consequences.

 

[Tez3]

i was going to respond to a lot of this but ....no.. its just too ridiculous.

Well I guess a great many think that way, 'boys' will be boys' after all, lets not blight their lives by bringing sexual assault or rape charges against them eh. Let's laugh at Peter Sagan pro bike rider pinching a women's backside as she presented a bouquet on the podium, eh he's a lad isn't he. But of course it's all ridiculous isn't it.
Everyday sexual assaults – one woman’s timeline

"Every woman has been groped/grabbed. Some countries are a lot worse for this than the UK; a few are better. The men who help themselves to a handful of bum or breast, who yank down your top or flip up your skirt, often treat it as a Benny Hill type joke. It’s amusing … if women are a joke, like squeaky toys.

But there’s something even more revolting about the surreptitious stroker. Most everyday sexual assaults are like this: so sneaky & underhand that we can’t be 100% sure we’re being assaulted."

This is so damn true.

 

[hoshin1600]

also for the love of Zeus,,,, we all know the stats that a large portion of sexual assault victims knew their attackers.
however
An expert estimates there are at least 2,000 serial killers still at large in the U.S.
http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Serial Killer Information Center/Serial Killer Statistics.pdf

with a guesstimate of 2000 to 3000 serial killers in the US and the average number of victims being in the vicinity of 100 per killer and the number one motive being a sexual fantasy......somebody is being a victim to someone they didnt really know. now we could also look up the stats on serial rapists because not all serial rapists kill their victims , but i digress.

 

[hoshin1600]

Well I guess a great many think that way, 'boys' will be boys' after all, lets not blight their lives by bringing sexual assault or rape charges against them eh. Let's laugh at Peter Sagan pro bike rider pinching a women's backside as she presented a bouquet on the podium, eh he's a lad isn't he. But of course it's all ridiculous isn't it.
Everyday sexual assaults – one woman’s timeline

"Every woman has been groped/grabbed. Some countries are a lot worse for this than the UK; a few are better. The men who help themselves to a handful of bum or breast, who yank down your top or flip up your skirt, often treat it as a Benny Hill type joke. It’s amusing … if women are a joke, like squeaky toys.

But there’s something even more revolting about the surreptitious stroker. Most everyday sexual assaults are like this: so sneaky & underhand that we can’t be 100% sure we’re being assaulted."

This is so damn true.

what is ridiculous Tez is that your brain washed by an extreme left media.
our president doesnt go around grabbing women. and if you think that (which you do because you have said it twice in this thread alone) then you didnt listen to what was actually said.
and i dont appreciate you putting words into my mouth. i never said boys will be boys or projected that idea.

 

[hoshin1600]

i also challenge the notion of 90% of all victims knew their attackers.
prove it!!!
i want government stats not some womens group who has vested monetary interest in the results. AND im going to put restrictions on the figures.

1. children,,,anyone under the age of 18 does not count.. their world exposure is to narrow. of course anyone who victimizes them has a relationship to them it will put a bias on the results.
2. the assault has to be within the bounds of actual government law. not a college tribunal or some such non sense. college (or university as you call it) has their own rules which often include ANY SEXUAL contact when alcohol was involved as rape.
3. i would want to see the level of relationship between the victim and attacker.

that last one is my major point. there is a big difference between being raped by uncle bob and some guy that you have seen before because he works at the star bucks where you get your coffee.

the perception being put forth by many is that "knowing the assailant" is equal to coercion and grooming and the corresponding inability for self defense. IE your not going to kick uncle Bob in the face and rip his eyes out. however if the assailant is "known" but only by a vague association then a violent response for self defense would be appropriate.
so how many of these "known" assailants are relational and how many are vague association??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have a president who likes to grab women's genitals and a judge who sexually assaulted a female when he was younger and got away with it. You have numerous 'celebrities' up on charges of sexual assault, you have the Incel movement, a vice President who refuses to be alone with women because they are 'dangerous', a man who gets off with sexual assault because he's a good swimmer ( many other cases too), the metoo movement, politicians who sexually assault women ( we get shocked when one politician gets called on his behaviour dear lord you have loads of them) so just how much more toxic do you want it to get before you start actually thinking there's a problem.
Sexual assault and harassment in American politics (2017-2018) - Ballotpedia

Not mention the catcalling, the wandering hands, the peeking down women's tops, the rubbing up against women, the sexual suggestions, the groping that happens every single day to the majority of women. Most women are so used to it they don't even consider it assault anymore and shrug it off. please don't say it doesn't happen, it does, a lot.

Women don't ever think being assaulted or raped was just someone who made a mistake, ever. Most men don't do this because it's easy not to assault or rape, anything else is just the rapist's excuse.

I think we're done here now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i dont have the facts or studies on hand but yes the current thought as i seem to remember is that a large portion of criminals have difficulty in cognitive reasoning of consequences.

If I find any research on it, I'll try to remember to post to one of the relevant threads.

 

[JR 137]

You have a president who likes to grab women's genitals and a judge who sexually assaulted a female when he was younger and got away with it. You have numerous 'celebrities' up on charges of sexual assault, you have the Incel movement, a vice President who refuses to be alone with women because they are 'dangerous', a man who gets off with sexual assault because he's a good swimmer ( many other cases too), the metoo movement, politicians who sexually assault women ( we get shocked when one politician gets called on his behaviour dear lord you have loads of them) so just how much more toxic do you want it to get before you start actually thinking there's a problem.
Sexual assault and harassment in American politics (2017-2018) - Ballotpedia

Not mention the catcalling, the wandering hands, the peeking down women's tops, the rubbing up against women, the sexual suggestions, the groping that happens every single day to the majority of women. Most women are so used to it they don't even consider it assault anymore and shrug it off. please don't say it doesn't happen, it does, a lot.

Women don't ever think being assaulted or raped was just someone who made a mistake, ever. Most men don't do this because it's easy not to assault or rape, anything else is just the rapist's excuse.

I take exception to the whole Supreme Court Justice thing. I’m not getting political here, just stating facts, and some very widely held opinions...

Calling him guilty of sexual assault and saying he got away with it is absolutely asinine.

Did you watch the hearing? The entire hearing? Or just snippets the media showed, which is of course bias; left and right leaning media have their biases, so I’m not bashing either side.

Both Dr. Ford and then-Judge (now Justice) Cavanaugh made very compelling arguements. Both seemed very sincere and believing one over the other is just plain bias talking. Both are equally credible as character goes.

Even if either one wasn’t credible, you have to look at the evidence. Due process and all that stuff. Ford’s account could not be corroborated by any witnesses, specifically the several SHE named. Forget about police, forensic evidence, etc. I’m not questioning why there wasn’t any.

So she makes a compelling witness by being emotional, and that’s enough to say he did it? If that’s the case, he was equally compelling and emotional, so that’s enough to say he didn’t do it?

With no witness corroboration and no other evidence, what leg does anyone who says he did it have to stand on?

Her case was very poorly handled by the people around her who had an obvious political agenda. There were many lies coming from her people’s side (I’m NOT saying from her personally).

Then you have far left politicians going on record saying “I believe her” before they heard anything from her or him. And these people are mostly attorneys by training. So we have a prominent senator who’s a Harvard Law graduate saying “I believe her” in the news, yet hasn’t heard either side’s testimony. I thought people like that are supposed to defend due process, not ignore it when it’s convenient. Several far left politicians claimed they’d vote no for anyone Trump nominated, long before Cavanaugh was nominated. Due process? Political vendetta? Personal vendetta?

The Cavanaugh hearing and the entire process was an absolute disgrace. A man’s reputation is forever ruined with zero credible an objective evidence by people with a political agenda. And worse, Dr. Ford’s reputation is also forever ruined by the same people who manipulated it to fit their agenda.

If this was a progressive judge nominated by a progressive president, the left would’ve cried foul the same way the right is crying foul. And they’d have been absolutely correct. The entire fiasco should’ve been held privately so both people could’ve saved their dignity.

If there was ANY witness corroborating her story, he had no business serving as a judge. With zero evidence, there’s zero reason why any of it went public the way it did. I don’t consider myself democrat nor republican; I vote for whoever I feel is the right person for the job. In 6 presidential elections that I’ve been old enough to vote in, Ive voted 5:1 democrat:republican, so don’t give me I’m an anti-left or right nonsensical argument.

 

[Tez3]

i want government stats not some womens group who has vested monetary interest in the result

Really/ I mean really? some women's group? is that what you think it was? Shows how much you know then.
"Around 90 per cent of victims of the most serious sexual offences in the previous year knew the perpetrator, compared with less than half for other sexual offences." This is an Official Statistics bulletin produced by the Ministry of Justice, Home Office and the Office for National Statistics.
An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales



Most Victims Know Their Attacker | National Institute of Justice

Most rape victims ‘know their attacker’ | IOL News

i would want to see the level of relationship between the victim and attacker.

No one mentioned 'relationships' that's your take on it, the statistics say 'known' ie not a stranger but someone they have interacted with.

the assault has to be within the bounds of actual government law. not a college tribunal or some such non sense. college (or university as you call it) has their own rules which often include ANY SEXUAL contact when alcohol was involved as rape.

In Europe and the UK there is only one law, we don't have 'college tribunals' or whatever. We also don't have 'government' law, we separate our governments from the law. Our judiciaries are independent. The rape charity you maligned is a highly respected one here, supported by the Home Office, police and NHS. It is regulated by the Charities Commission and conforms to National Service standards. While they do limited fund raising for specific projects it is mostly funded by the government....this is just an example, I won't post lists of all the money that the government has allotted the centres. Glasgow's Rape Crisis centre to receive £74,000 in vital funding

our president doesnt go around grabbing women. and if you think that (which you do because you have said it twice in this thread alone) then you didnt listen to what was actually said.

He condones it, he's on video saying so. Literally, the whole world heard it. You are excusing his behaviour...….. 'locker room talk'.

As for being 'brainwashed' by left wing propaganda, my dear, you are talking bollocks. Crime statistics and crime are something I'm very familiar with, I have also taken several in-depth Home Office courses (not seminars) on sexual and domestic violence, the tutors were highly qualified experts in their field from forensic, academic and police fields as well as dealing with victims of rape both in this country and another, hotter and sandier than the UK. You can keep telling yourself I'm wrong but I'm not.

 

[Orion Nebula]

@hoshin1600 I'm surprised that you are so strongly challenging the idea that sexual assault victims know their attackers. It's not an unreasonable idea, nor is it new. I'm not really interested in doing much research here since 1) I'm not the only who brought up the stats, and 2) people tend to dig their heels deeper into their beliefs when presented with conflicting information (not saying this will apply to you, but it's a common trend). However, the Bureau of Justice Statistics has lots of data related to sexual assault:

BJS - Rape and Sexual Assault

Of particular interest is the report on assault of college-aged females (this is the age group which gets assaulted the most), which meets your first two conditions. It states a slightly lower figure of 80%, which is further broken down into intimate partners (including current and former), relatives, and friends/acquaintances. They also distinguish students vs. non-students in the report. For the non-students, there's an almost 50/50 ratio of assaults by partners and friends. For students, the figure for friends and acquaintances is much higher. It's a little odd that they chose to report friends and acquaintances as one figure when their methods show that they asked these as separate questions.

I have some other questions for you. From your last post, you seem to only be concerned with rape itself and not other forms of sexual assault. Does that really matter? There is most definitely a difference between someone pinching a butt and rape. Technically, a butt pinch can be called sexual assault, but it's on a whole different level than rape. However, there are plenty of awful sexual things you can do to someone that are just as wrong and psychologically damaging as rape. So I don't think it's really that important to distinguish between assault vs. rape, especially when rape reporting rates are so low. How many people are really going to report something like a smack on the behind as an assault?

I'm also wondering why you think that a woman needs to have a very close relationship with someone to not resist? There are plenty of reasons why someone might not claw the eyes out of their attacker, even if it's just a casual acquaintance like the guy who makes your coffee. The average male is stronger than the average female - it's not hard to imagine a girl starting to resist and quickly being overpowered and then giving up because she would rather be raped than have her face smashed in. Even if she didn't give up, it's still not that hard to overpower someone who is smaller and physically weaker than you, especially if they're already in a disadvantaged position. Looking at that report, in a lot of of the cases, alcohol is involved. You can't exactly fight off someone effectively when you're completely trashed, and certainly not if you're passed out. And you know what else? Sometimes things happen faster than you can react to.

One thing I do agree with you on is that women definitely should be trained in some self-defense, as many have discussed in previous posts. There are plenty of simple things that can be taught to women that will help them inflict some damage on an attacker who is overpowering them and give them the chance to get away. Probably not useful if they are extremely intoxicated and not useful in situations where a relationship could lead to coercion and a desire to not harm your attacker (such as being raped by a boyfriend), but better than nothing.