Do self defense programs work?

KenpoMaster805

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
583
Reaction score
103
Location
Oxnard California
Dont watch any Martial video they might be wrong its better if you go to a karate school and get a instructor that suites you gor yiur Ma
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
My, my, what a man hating anti American thread this turned out to be.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,116
Reaction score
1,812
Location
Southeast U.S.
Agreed. I toyed with trying to do something like that. It would have been a 90-day startup, and once-a-month refreshers (no new content after the 90 days). If I had a program with enough students, I might consider revisiting this, but my personal opinion was that if folks were supposed to come once a month, most wouldn't come more than a few times a year. I don't think that would be often enough to even maintain minimal proficiency on something acquired in 90 days (of 2-4 days a week).
Very interesting, did you go so far as to create a curriculum? I would love to see it if you did.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,116
Reaction score
1,812
Location
Southeast U.S.
Dont watch any Martial video they might be wrong its better if you go to a karate school and get a instructor that suites you gor yiur Ma
I disagree with "don't watch any MA video, they might be wrong. I do agree with getting in person training to get the full understanding of the technique with resistance training. Videos are best for those with some experience.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,684
Reaction score
1,465
Location
Manchester UK
I disagree with "don't watch any MA video, they might be wrong. I do agree with getting in person training to get the full understanding of the technique with resistance training. Videos are best for those with some experience.
agree
the thing with that line of reasoning is theres no evidence that in person instruction makes you better at self defence than vid instruction, you can infer that it's the case but it's impossible to prove, in fact you cant prove that any ma training makes you better at self defence, you could reasonably infer that those with a combat out let do, but not at all for the vast majority of ma. so saying that unquantifable vid trainingon is inferior to the unquantifiable benefits of personal instruction is just a stab in the dark really
 
Last edited:

Rat

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Messages
1,430
Reaction score
164
Video might be one of the best mediums to look at in terms of techniques. So if you are trying to dissect how to do this technique, video is the way to go.


I would extend the scope of his original point to, best with some experience or last resort if you cant find anywhere to get said experience from someone who can give you it. But should be done with a training partner as much as possible.

That being Dvcochran.

After all, martial arts (lineages) started somewhere and there is a innate skill set in how to fight in basically everyone.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,116
Reaction score
1,812
Location
Southeast U.S.
UOTE="jobo, post: 1957988, member: 36477"]agree
the thing with that line of reasoning is theres no evidence that in person instruction makes you better at self defence than vid instruction, you can infer that it's the case but it's impossible to prove, in fact you cant prove that any ma training makes you better at self defence, you could reasonably infer that those with a combat out let do, but not at all for the vast majority of ma. so saying that unquantifable vid trainingon is inferior to the unquantifiable benefits of personal instruction is just a stab in the dark really[/QUOTE]
The greatest value had from training within a school, assuming it is of quality, is the resistance training. I agree, as with anything, if it is not genuine resistance it is not as valuable. I do NOT want a guy trying to kill me every class, I cannot do that any more. So teaching self defense is as much about setting the theme and understanding of what you are doing during the resistance training. Not a macho, Randy Savage experience with a willing partner. A person usually doesn't have time to "get up" in a self defense encounter so it isn't an emotional moment. For me, the "high" comes after the encounter is over. I still struggle with not getting irrationally pissed off after a moment like that.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,586
Dont watch any Martial video they might be wrong its better if you go to a karate school and get a instructor that suites you gor yiur Ma
Why would I go to a karate school if I do judo? Then a karate instructor won't help my judo much
 

donald1

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
3,432
Reaction score
683
Wow. You know a style is legit when they have an instant ko baby.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,684
Reaction score
1,465
Location
Manchester UK
UOTE="jobo, post: 1957988, member: 36477"]agree
the thing with that line of reasoning is theres no evidence that in person instruction makes you better at self defence than vid instruction, you can infer that it's the case but it's impossible to prove, in fact you cant prove that any ma training makes you better at self defence, you could reasonably infer that those with a combat out let do, but not at all for the vast majority of ma. so saying that unquantifable vid trainingon is inferior to the unquantifiable benefits of personal instruction is just a stab in the dark really
The greatest value had from training within a school, assuming it is of quality, is the resistance training. I agree, as with anything, if it is not genuine resistance it is not as valuable. I do NOT want a guy trying to kill me every class, I cannot do that any more. So teaching self defense is as much about setting the theme and understanding of what you are doing during the resistance training. Not a macho, Randy Savage experience with a willing partner. A person usually doesn't have time to "get up" in a self defense encounter so it isn't an emotional moment. For me, the "high" comes after the encounter is over. I still struggle with not getting irrationally pissed off after a moment like that.[/QUOTE]


but there in lies the problem, you either have a resistant partner or you dont, there isn't a middle ground, half resisting isn5 resisting it's only half trying, or maybe only a third trying, how on earth do you quantify any resistance less than 100%.

in a lot of ways yourjust as well punching a bag at full power than fairy tapping an opponent who isn't really trying. it proves much the same as far as self defence abilities go
 
Last edited:

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
The greatest value had from training within a school, assuming it is of quality, is the resistance training. I agree, as with anything, if it is not genuine resistance it is not as valuable. I do NOT want a guy trying to kill me every class, I cannot do that any more. So teaching self defense is as much about setting the theme and understanding of what you are doing during the resistance training. Not a macho, Randy Savage experience with a willing partner. A person usually doesn't have time to "get up" in a self defense encounter so it isn't an emotional moment. For me, the "high" comes after the encounter is over. I still struggle with not getting irrationally pissed off after a moment like that.


but there in lies the problem, you either have a resistant partner or you dont, there isn't a middle ground, half resisting isn5 resisting it's only half trying, or maybe only a third trying, how on earth do you quantify any resistance less than 100%.

in a lot of ways yourjust as well punching a bag at full power than fairy tapping an opponent who isn't really trying. it proves much the same as far as self defence abilities go[/QUOTE]
It is entirely possible to resist less than 100%. If I'm resisting 100% (as if my life depended on it), I'm using all my strength, speed, and any savagery I can muster, and taking every opening at maximum useful force and speed. That kind of thing leads to injuries, so it's rare to do in a training environment. Instead, we pull back the power, sometimes the speed, and nearly always limit the savagery. When we work with someone of lesser skill, we can even limit the openings we take, to give them more opportunities to practice offense. It's my experience that most learning happens somewhere between about half and 3/4 of "fighting for your life" level resistance, allowing for some pretty vague estimates of level of resistance.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,684
Reaction score
1,465
Location
Manchester UK
but there in lies the problem, you either have a resistant partner or you dont, there isn't a middle ground, half resisting isn5 resisting it's only half trying, or maybe only a third trying, how on earth do you quantify any resistance less than 100%.

in a lot of ways yourjust as well punching a bag at full power than fairy tapping an opponent who isn't really trying. it proves much the same as far as self defence abilities go
It is entirely possible to resist less than 100%. If I'm resisting 100% (as if my life depended on it), I'm using all my strength, speed, and any savagery I can muster, and taking every opening at maximum useful force and speed. That kind of thing leads to injuries, so it's rare to do in a training environment. Instead, we pull back the power, sometimes the speed, and nearly always limit the savagery. When we work with someone of lesser skill, we can even limit the openings we take, to give them more opportunities to practice offense. It's my experience that most learning happens somewhere between about half and 3/4 of "fighting for your life" level resistance, allowing for some pretty vague estimates of level of resistance.[/QUOTE]
well it's not really, if someone trying to throw you on the floor and your only half "resisting "then your going on the floor. that teaches no one anything about real world application. if someone throwing punches at half speed, that teaches you nothing about dodging full speed punches. just the opposite really it gives you a flattering view of your abilities of self defence.

I know it's just about impossible to run a modern dojo with realistic levels of violence, but that's why the self defence benefits of any ma that doesn't use realistic levels of resistance is very questionable
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
well it's not really, if someone trying to throw you on the floor and your only half "resisting "then your going on the floor. that teaches no one anything about real world application. if someone throwing punches at half speed, that teaches you nothing about dodging full speed punches. just the opposite really it gives you a flattering view of your abilities of self defence.
Not always true. I can resist with about 10% of my tools and stop most students from putting me on the floor, because I know how to counter what they're doing. I don't have to fight back at all to stop them from putting me down, just counter the techniques. Just as instructors could do with me until I learned enough to cause trouble at that level of resistance. And if someone is working "light technical" (meaning they're purposely not putting their strength into things, to force themselves to use better technique), then I can provide meaningful (and appropriate) resistance with a similar level of force.

I know it's just about impossible to run a modern dojo with realistic levels of violence, but that's why the self defence benefits of any ma that doesn't use realistic levels of resistance is very questionable
Any resistance from a well-trained martial artist is going to be unrealistic. I can probably put down a Judo BB if we don't play by Judo rules (if we do, they're more likely to put me down), but the counters they'd use wouldn't be something I'm ever likely to run into from an attacker. That's why part of SD training probably ought to include trying to simulate (doing some things a trained person wouldn't be likely to do), so you can get practice against types of resistance that aren't common in sparring/rolling.

But yeah, there's always a factor of trying to figure out how to get as realistic as you can, without getting people injured. And I don't know that's entirely a "modern dojo" thing. If you're teaching for self-defense purposes, and the students are getting injured, they don't need an attacker any more. :D
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,099
Reaction score
2,494
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
if someone trying to throw you on the floor and your only half "resisting "then your going on the floor. that teaches no one anything about real world application. if someone throwing punches at half speed, that teaches you nothing about dodging full speed punches. just the opposite really it gives you a flattering view of your abilities of self defence.
You are confused between "skill developing" and "skill testing".

For skill

- developing, you will give your opponent that opportunity.
- testing, you will not give your opportunity that opportunity.

For example, if you always

- lay down on the ground, you will never help your opponent to develop his throw skill (but you can help him to develop his ground skill).
- run away from your opponent, you will never help your opponent to develop his striking skill (but you can help him to develop his running skill).
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
If I pull you and you

- resist, your resisting will not help my pulling, but will help my pushing.
- yield, your yielding will not help my futher pulling.
Agreed, though it depends upon how we define "resist". My "maximum resistance" to a pull isn't a counter-pull, but something like a shift of weight, using your arm to change your structure, and a strike to diffuse your power.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,099
Reaction score
2,494
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Agreed, though it depends upon how we define "resist". My "maximum resistance" to a pull isn't a counter-pull, but something like a shift of weight, using your arm to change your structure, and a strike to diffuse your power.
Your "maximum resistance" will be my "counter". May be there are 3 terms here.

1. Avoid - I attack your leading leg, you step back, I attack your other leg.
2. Resist - I pull, your resist, I push.
3. Counter - I attack, you counter, I counter your counter.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Your "maximum resistance" will be my "counter". May be there are 3 terms here.

1. Avoid - I attack your leading leg, you step back, I attack your other leg.
2. Resist - I pull, your resist, I push.
3. Counter - I attack, you counter, I counter your counter.
The main reason I don't like defining "resist" that way, is that students often ask "well, what if he resists", and their "resistance" makes no sense (perhaps a sudden stiff, unmoving arm) or is clearly not the input we'd be using the technique against (pulling their arm in, when the technique is for working against an extended arm). And when we talk about "resistive training", we're talking about actually trying to stop someone from doing their technique, not just providing opposing force.

I can't quite wrap my head around push-vs-pull as "resistance" to the technique. It's simply an opposing motion. To me, "resist" includes all methods of resisting a technique: counters, strikes, stiffening/relaxing, shifting posture, etc.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,099
Reaction score
2,494
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
To me, "resist" includes all methods of resisting a technique: counters, strikes, stiffening/relaxing, shifting posture, etc.
Does your definition of "resist" include dodge, move to the side, move back, run away, lay down on the ground, ...?

If I can run away faster that you can chase me, even if you are Muhammad Ali, your punch cannot land on me.

As long as "resist" means "contact", you can always borrow your opponent's resisting force.

For example,

- I punch.
- You block.
- I pull your blocking arm, and ...

But if

- I punch.
- You dodge.
- I can't do much after that.
 

Latest Discussions

Top