KenpoMaster805
2nd Black Belt
Dont watch any Martial video they might be wrong its better if you go to a karate school and get a instructor that suites you gor yiur Ma
Do self defense programs work?
- Thread starter AtomicRabbit
- Start date
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Very interesting, did you go so far as to create a curriculum? I would love to see it if you did.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I disagree with "don't watch any MA video, they might be wrong. I do agree with getting in person training to get the full understanding of the technique with resistance training. Videos are best for those with some experience.
Parts of one. I'll see if I can find where I put it.
jobo
Grandmaster
agree
the thing with that line of reasoning is theres no evidence that in person instruction makes you better at self defence than vid instruction, you can infer that it's the case but it's impossible to prove, in fact you cant prove that any ma training makes you better at self defence, you could reasonably infer that those with a combat out let do, but not at all for the vast majority of ma. so saying that unquantifable vid trainingon is inferior to the unquantifiable benefits of personal instruction is just a stab in the dark really
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D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
Video might be one of the best mediums to look at in terms of techniques. So if you are trying to dissect how to do this technique, video is the way to go.
I would extend the scope of his original point to, best with some experience or last resort if you cant find anywhere to get said experience from someone who can give you it. But should be done with a training partner as much as possible.
That being Dvcochran.
After all, martial arts (lineages) started somewhere and there is a innate skill set in how to fight in basically everyone.
I would extend the scope of his original point to, best with some experience or last resort if you cant find anywhere to get said experience from someone who can give you it. But should be done with a training partner as much as possible.
That being Dvcochran.
After all, martial arts (lineages) started somewhere and there is a innate skill set in how to fight in basically everyone.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
UOTE="jobo, post: 1957988, member: 36477"]agree
the thing with that line of reasoning is theres no evidence that in person instruction makes you better at self defence than vid instruction, you can infer that it's the case but it's impossible to prove, in fact you cant prove that any ma training makes you better at self defence, you could reasonably infer that those with a combat out let do, but not at all for the vast majority of ma. so saying that unquantifable vid trainingon is inferior to the unquantifiable benefits of personal instruction is just a stab in the dark really[/QUOTE]
The greatest value had from training within a school, assuming it is of quality, is the resistance training. I agree, as with anything, if it is not genuine resistance it is not as valuable. I do NOT want a guy trying to kill me every class, I cannot do that any more. So teaching self defense is as much about setting the theme and understanding of what you are doing during the resistance training. Not a macho, Randy Savage experience with a willing partner. A person usually doesn't have time to "get up" in a self defense encounter so it isn't an emotional moment. For me, the "high" comes after the encounter is over. I still struggle with not getting irrationally pissed off after a moment like that.
the thing with that line of reasoning is theres no evidence that in person instruction makes you better at self defence than vid instruction, you can infer that it's the case but it's impossible to prove, in fact you cant prove that any ma training makes you better at self defence, you could reasonably infer that those with a combat out let do, but not at all for the vast majority of ma. so saying that unquantifable vid trainingon is inferior to the unquantifiable benefits of personal instruction is just a stab in the dark really[/QUOTE]
The greatest value had from training within a school, assuming it is of quality, is the resistance training. I agree, as with anything, if it is not genuine resistance it is not as valuable. I do NOT want a guy trying to kill me every class, I cannot do that any more. So teaching self defense is as much about setting the theme and understanding of what you are doing during the resistance training. Not a macho, Randy Savage experience with a willing partner. A person usually doesn't have time to "get up" in a self defense encounter so it isn't an emotional moment. For me, the "high" comes after the encounter is over. I still struggle with not getting irrationally pissed off after a moment like that.
Headhunter
Senior Master
Why would I go to a karate school if I do judo? Then a karate instructor won't help my judo much
jobo
Grandmaster
The greatest value had from training within a school, assuming it is of quality, is the resistance training. I agree, as with anything, if it is not genuine resistance it is not as valuable. I do NOT want a guy trying to kill me every class, I cannot do that any more. So teaching self defense is as much about setting the theme and understanding of what you are doing during the resistance training. Not a macho, Randy Savage experience with a willing partner. A person usually doesn't have time to "get up" in a self defense encounter so it isn't an emotional moment. For me, the "high" comes after the encounter is over. I still struggle with not getting irrationally pissed off after a moment like that.[/QUOTE]
but there in lies the problem, you either have a resistant partner or you dont, there isn't a middle ground, half resisting isn5 resisting it's only half trying, or maybe only a third trying, how on earth do you quantify any resistance less than 100%.
in a lot of ways yourjust as well punching a bag at full power than fairy tapping an opponent who isn't really trying. it proves much the same as far as self defence abilities go
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but there in lies the problem, you either have a resistant partner or you dont, there isn't a middle ground, half resisting isn5 resisting it's only half trying, or maybe only a third trying, how on earth do you quantify any resistance less than 100%.
in a lot of ways yourjust as well punching a bag at full power than fairy tapping an opponent who isn't really trying. it proves much the same as far as self defence abilities go[/QUOTE]
It is entirely possible to resist less than 100%. If I'm resisting 100% (as if my life depended on it), I'm using all my strength, speed, and any savagery I can muster, and taking every opening at maximum useful force and speed. That kind of thing leads to injuries, so it's rare to do in a training environment. Instead, we pull back the power, sometimes the speed, and nearly always limit the savagery. When we work with someone of lesser skill, we can even limit the openings we take, to give them more opportunities to practice offense. It's my experience that most learning happens somewhere between about half and 3/4 of "fighting for your life" level resistance, allowing for some pretty vague estimates of level of resistance.
jobo
Grandmaster
It is entirely possible to resist less than 100%. If I'm resisting 100% (as if my life depended on it), I'm using all my strength, speed, and any savagery I can muster, and taking every opening at maximum useful force and speed. That kind of thing leads to injuries, so it's rare to do in a training environment. Instead, we pull back the power, sometimes the speed, and nearly always limit the savagery. When we work with someone of lesser skill, we can even limit the openings we take, to give them more opportunities to practice offense. It's my experience that most learning happens somewhere between about half and 3/4 of "fighting for your life" level resistance, allowing for some pretty vague estimates of level of resistance.[/QUOTE]
well it's not really, if someone trying to throw you on the floor and your only half "resisting "then your going on the floor. that teaches no one anything about real world application. if someone throwing punches at half speed, that teaches you nothing about dodging full speed punches. just the opposite really it gives you a flattering view of your abilities of self defence.
I know it's just about impossible to run a modern dojo with realistic levels of violence, but that's why the self defence benefits of any ma that doesn't use realistic levels of resistance is very questionable
Not always true. I can resist with about 10% of my tools and stop most students from putting me on the floor, because I know how to counter what they're doing. I don't have to fight back at all to stop them from putting me down, just counter the techniques. Just as instructors could do with me until I learned enough to cause trouble at that level of resistance. And if someone is working "light technical" (meaning they're purposely not putting their strength into things, to force themselves to use better technique), then I can provide meaningful (and appropriate) resistance with a similar level of force.
Any resistance from a well-trained martial artist is going to be unrealistic. I can probably put down a Judo BB if we don't play by Judo rules (if we do, they're more likely to put me down), but the counters they'd use wouldn't be something I'm ever likely to run into from an attacker. That's why part of SD training probably ought to include trying to simulate (doing some things a trained person wouldn't be likely to do), so you can get practice against types of resistance that aren't common in sparring/rolling.
But yeah, there's always a factor of trying to figure out how to get as realistic as you can, without getting people injured. And I don't know that's entirely a "modern dojo" thing. If you're teaching for self-defense purposes, and the students are getting injured, they don't need an attacker any more.
You are confused between "skill developing" and "skill testing".
For skill
- developing, you will give your opponent that opportunity.
- testing, you will not give your opportunity that opportunity.
For example, if you always
- lay down on the ground, you will never help your opponent to develop his throw skill (but you can help him to develop his ground skill).
- run away from your opponent, you will never help your opponent to develop his striking skill (but you can help him to develop his running skill).
If I pull you and you
- resist, your resisting will not help my pulling, but will help my pushing.
- yield, your yielding will not help my futher pulling.
Agreed, though it depends upon how we define "resist". My "maximum resistance" to a pull isn't a counter-pull, but something like a shift of weight, using your arm to change your structure, and a strike to diffuse your power.
Your "maximum resistance" will be my "counter". May be there are 3 terms here.
1. Avoid - I attack your leading leg, you step back, I attack your other leg.
2. Resist - I pull, your resist, I push.
3. Counter - I attack, you counter, I counter your counter.
The main reason I don't like defining "resist" that way, is that students often ask "well, what if he resists", and their "resistance" makes no sense (perhaps a sudden stiff, unmoving arm) or is clearly not the input we'd be using the technique against (pulling their arm in, when the technique is for working against an extended arm). And when we talk about "resistive training", we're talking about actually trying to stop someone from doing their technique, not just providing opposing force.
I can't quite wrap my head around push-vs-pull as "resistance" to the technique. It's simply an opposing motion. To me, "resist" includes all methods of resisting a technique: counters, strikes, stiffening/relaxing, shifting posture, etc.
Does your definition of "resist" include dodge, move to the side, move back, run away, lay down on the ground, ...?
If I can run away faster that you can chase me, even if you are Muhammad Ali, your punch cannot land on me.
As long as "resist" means "contact", you can always borrow your opponent's resisting force.
For example,
- I punch.
- You block.
- I pull your blocking arm, and ...
But if
- I punch.
- You dodge.
- I can't do much after that.
