Do self defense programs work?

[jobo]

I think we have enough data to make some reasonable inferences on the percentage. I think you're right that we have some problems in generalizing some of that data to include MA, though experiments that deliberately invoke high-stress reactions ("fight or flight") are reasonable sources for such inferences.

you might have enough data, but you dont seem at all keen on sharing it, despite several requests, I could almost be forgiven for thinking your just making things up .

 

[jobo]

You're conflating errors in technique with a complete absence of technique. Most of those misses - even the really easy ones - don't involve them failing to kick well. Most involve them mis-targeting or (more commonly) simply using more power than is useful for the situation. It's still a kick, and more or less the same kick they intended.

if They dont hit the ball well they haven't kicked well, and definitely not as they intended

 

[jobo]

You said it was the rugby tackle you learned at 6. That's not an instinct, but a well-learned action. That's exactly what we're aiming for in MA training.


There are definitely some variables that can confound data. There are also studies that have controlled for those variables.

no I didn't I said I developed it when I was 6, from
om instincts , the same way fledgling birds fly south from instinct m6 instinct was to drag other kids over,( and 5hen punch them) I only got better at it after a few practise runs and it still works well, despite not practising it at all, since I stopped playing rugby 42 years ago

 

[Orion Nebula]

I'm curious if that's a similar proportion in the US. It's not my perception that the numbers would be as high, but that might be a misperception, or it might be just because of who I spend time around.

I'm guessing you don't spend much time reading the comments on public social media posts. I try not to, but sometimes I can't help myself and then I'm reminded why I stay away. Based on that alone, I would conclude that the US is overrun with victim blamers (both men and women) as well as some real slime balls. So I think our perceptions certainly are affected by the people we are exposed to, either personally or through cesspools... I mean social networks like Facebook and Twitter.

There are some interesting articles about the psychology of victim blaming. There's a concept called the "just world" where people have a need to believe that we live in a just society so they start trying to rationalize why bad things happen to people. Here's a few articles about it (along with some other theories):

Psychology Today - Why do people blame the victim?

The Atlantic - The psychology of victim-blaming

Regarding the assertion @Tez3 made about educating men to stop assaulting women, there has actually been some interesting stuff done in this area. I remember seeing something about it on tv years ago and I'm sure if this is the same program I saw, but there's an educational movement in Kenya that's actually having a good impact. It initially started as an educational program for girls to assert themselves in saying no and providing some self-defense training, but its organizers smartly recognized that they need to change boys' attitudes as well. Now more boys are intervening when they see an assault and reported rapes are down. Check it out:

Teaching boys that 'real men' would stop rape

 

[Orion Nebula]

ill take on this argument, but i wont argue about it...merely point out a few things.
the current popular ideology is a victimization mindset. the mind set says....we are victims (of various things, im not focused on sexual assault here) therefore YOU (those who dont belong inside our group) should "check your privilege" because you white male men are bigots, homophobic, transphobic, mysoginistic full of toxic masculinity blah blah blah...everyone know all of the slander terms that get thrown out. frankly it gets boring after awhile.
but the issue is that the world get divided into We the oppressed and You the oppressors. its a dividing ideology that shuts down the conversation and does so on purpose because YOU oppressors shouldnt have a "platform". this Marxist derivative does not believe in free speech, how could it. free speech doesnt exist in this ideology. any speech is seen as an expression of your group not the ideas of an individual. there is no sovereign individual.
the rape culture thing is an extension of this quasi Marxist, post modern feminism. its just another group to belong to in order to virtue signal your victim status.

ok back to the program...

problems arise in this victim climate because it is unpopular to have a counter voice. therefore there is only ONE narrative. no debate is possible in order to come up with better solutions. as Tez has pointed out in many posts that the problem is "MEN" that boys should be taught not to rape. im sorry i have two young boys, at no time have i ever told them that it is ok nor did my Dad tell me it was either. but how convenient that the answer was sooooo simple all this time. you figure that since women have been being raped since the beginning of time (you know in corsets and all) that someone would have thought of that before...i guess Nancy Reagan was soooo close ..."JUST SAY NO" maybe we should go to all the prisons and tell everyone in there that crime is bad that they shouldnt do it. that should solve the problem. just tell the criminals its bad to kill and steal and all the crime will go away.
im sorry this solution seems a little ridiculous to me. the facts are, a small minority of the population does bad things and history has shown that it isnt going to just go away. so instead of playing ideology politics how about we have a conversation and actually deal with the issue.

back to the issue......

as much as some people want to blame the oppressors, statistics matter. my friend has a tendency to ride his motorcycle at very high speeds once in a while. he says he only does it "once in a while" the more often you ride like that the better the chances are your going to die but if you only do it a few times chances are youll be ok. the same statistics hold true in this argument. again the fact is there are bad people and they WILL DO BAD THINGS we cannot change that with wishful thinking. my question is where does individual responsibility exist in this problem? the current argument says all of the blame lies on the assailant and NONE on the victim. so statistics dont exist? they are not real? the stats say if a women lives alone the chances of being a victim increases...maybe only a little. lets say the number raises .05% then if she lives in a less affluent city the percentage of being a victim goes up 10 % her age also is a factor under 30 years of age,,,increase of 20%. the frequency of going out to clubs and bars where alcohol is served % goes up again the more she socializes. every life choice will either decrease or increase the % chance of being a victim of a violent or sexual crime.
so yes there is personal responsibility that can be advised. this is different than putting blame on the victim. responsibility is not blame. however the ideology likes to ignore this because it doesnt serve their ulterior motive.
i feel this Feministic view actually puts women more at risk because they refuse to explain personal responsibility and that there is a very real thing called consequences.
the argument says: "we shouldnt have to tell women to dress conservatively , women should be able to do what ever they want to do"
yeah well ,, my Doctor shouldnt have to tell me to not eat Mcdonalds every day because it will lead to heart attack and death but he still does. why because its sound advise. i have the right to eat what ever i want, where ever i want. lets blame Mcdonalds and have a "Me To Fat" movement that forces all fast food to have less calories and be more healthy......oh wait we already did that and it failed because people hated it. they wanted that BigMac not a salad.
its called personal responsibility people. deal with it.

You raise some interesting points here. I agree that there is a subset of people among various movements (whether it's sexual assault, race, LGBTQ+ rights, etc.) that divide the world into the oppressed and the oppressors and don't want to invite the oppressors into the conversation. Unfortunately, these are often the loudest voices and create negative stereotypes for the movement. For example, one of the stereotypes of feminists is an angry woman with short hair and hairy armpits burning her bra and calling for the extermination of men. Ok, maybe that's an exaggerated stereotype, but you get my drift. The majority of feminists don't fit that mold, and really the term feminism is a misnomer. While feminism has its roots in the quest for equality between men and women, today it actually encompasses a wide range of socioeconomic issues including racial equality, transgender rights, etc. For those of you who enjoy 80s movies, I find that Bill and Ted perfectly encompass the goals of feminism: "Be excellent to each other" and "Party on, dudes!" Anyway, if you had the opportunity to engage with true feminists, you'd probably think differently about them. Although even a calm, thoughtful feminist ready for civil discourse will have a hard time suppressing their reaction to statements like "the rape culture thing is an extension of this quasi Marxist, post modern feminism. its just another group to belong to in order to virtue signal your victim status." That's just a bloody ignorant thing to say.

You also don't have a good understanding of what rape culture is (although that's not your fault - a lot of people have trouble defining it)... it's not fathers telling their sons that it's fine and dandy to rape women. That's absurd. I'm sure that situation does exist in small quantities, but rape culture is about attitudes and behaviors that help to keep rape prevalent in society. Sometimes it's obvious what these are, like making rape jokes or blaming the victim for dressing provocatively. Other are very disconnected, like forcing children to hug relatives when they don't want to, which teaches them that they don't always have autonomy over their bodies. It's a complex issue without an easy answer, but it shouldn't be dismissed as some fake construct designed for virtue signaling.

 

[Steve]

I'm guessing you don't spend much time reading the comments on public social media posts. I try not to, but sometimes I can't help myself and then I'm reminded why I stay away. Based on that alone, I would conclude that the US is overrun with victim blamers (both men and women) as well as some real slime balls. So I think our perceptions certainly are affected by the people we are exposed to, either personally or through cesspools... I mean social networks like Facebook and Twitter.

There are some interesting articles about the psychology of victim blaming. There's a concept called the "just world" where people have a need to believe that we live in a just society so they start trying to rationalize why bad things happen to people. Here's a few articles about it (along with some other theories):

Psychology Today - Why do people blame the victim?

The Atlantic - The psychology of victim-blaming

Regarding the assertion @Tez3 made about educating men to stop assaulting women, there has actually been some interesting stuff done in this area. I remember seeing something about it on tv years ago and I'm sure if this is the same program I saw, but there's an educational movement in Kenya that's actually having a good impact. It initially started as an educational program for girls to assert themselves in saying no and providing some self-defense training, but its organizers smartly recognized that they need to change boys' attitudes as well. Now more boys are intervening when they see an assault and reported rapes are down. Check it out:

Teaching boys that 'real men' would stop rape

personally, I think this is a big topic that invariably ends up leading a bunch of folks who agree that rape is wrong to get angry with each other. Each person convinced the other is smug, arrogant, and/or ignorant.

There are things we can do to educate both young men and young women. I don't think blaming a girl for their assualt is right. I also don't think blaming a boy for something his friend did is right either.

 

[Orion Nebula]

personally, I think this is a big topic that invariably ends up leading a bunch of folks who agree that rape is wrong to get angry with each other. Each person convinced the other is smug, arrogant, and/or ignorant.

There are things we can do to educate both young men and young women. I don't think blaming a girl for their assualt is right. I also don't think blaming a boy for something his friend did is right either.

Great point! I agree. It's easy to get offended by something somebody says even though you're both on the same side and the whole thing turns into an angry mess. I wonder what psychologists have to say about people dividing themselves over their small differences instead of coming together over what they have in common!

 

[Flying Crane]

I love the opening video on his website. Looks to be a “how to assault someone in a bar.”

 

[Tez3]

I also don't think blaming a boy for something his friend did is right either.

That's a random comment. I've not known that to happen.

 

[hoshin1600]

@Orion Nebula
nice post. well written and thoughtful. i can appreciate that.

You also don't have a good understanding of what rape culture is

i think i do. however it is based on my own experience living in the USA. you bring up Kenya

there's an educational movement in Kenya that's actually having a good impact. It initially started as an educational program for girls to assert themselves in saying no and providing some self-defense training, but its organizers smartly recognized that they need to change boys' attitudes as well.

and this partially fits my thoughts on the matter. Kenya and the USA are different and not by a little bit. As i see it that part of the world has real issues and i would totally agree a rape culture exists there as well as other parts of the world. however we need to differentiate between real and perceived and this is where ideologies get in the way of discussion.
however for me to advise my daughter (if i had one) not to go out at night dressed like a saturday night street walker is not a form of "Toxic masculinity" its just the right thing to do on many levels. nor does that advise make it ok for bad people to do bad things. there has to be responsibility on both sides. but the current flavor is to blame one side and remove all responsibility from the other.
now i need to make one thing very very clear ...i am not talking about children here. my comments are about adults and young adults. again there are complexities to the issues. complexity has a tendency to nullify blanket statements.

if you had the opportunity to engage with true feminists, you'd probably think differently about them

i dont deal in "THEM" why do we need to define people into groups? i deal with individuals every day all day long. somehow i think the

angry woman with short hair and hairy armpits burning her bra and calling for the extermination of men

will object to being called not a real feminist.

but honestly my point is identity politics will not create solutions or in this case keep girls and women safe. focus on the individual responsibility of both the assailant and the victim.

 

[drop bear]

That's a random comment. I've not known that to happen.

Gillete ad.

 

[Steve]

That's a random comment. I've not known that to happen.

men at large are responsible for the actions of some men.

 

[hoshin1600]

smug, arrogant, and/or ignorant.

well see now your just trying to suck up and flatter me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you might have enough data, but you dont seem at all keen on sharing it, despite several requests, I could almost be forgiven for thinking your just making things up .

I missed if you asked for me to show data. I'll be happy to go make a search for the specific studies I have in mind.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if They dont hit the ball well they haven't kicked well, and definitely not as they intended

In most cases, they actually make great contact...just not getting the result they wanted. It's usually a matter of the angle and/or power being off somewhat. The absolute miss is quite rare. The wobbly result of poor contact is also quite rare.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no I didn't I said I developed it when I was 6, from
om instincts , the same way fledgling birds fly south from instinct m6 instinct was to drag other kids over,( and 5hen punch them) I only got better at it after a few practise runs and it still works well, despite not practising it at all, since I stopped playing rugby 42 years ago

Yes, you did. See below:

I just reverted back to my instincts and rugby tacked him to the ground a technique I developed when I was 6

If you're changing that story, we have run into the end of where this discussion can go, I think.

 

[hoshin1600]

@Orion Nebula
i should also say i am not attacking a person or a group of people. i am against ideologies and when a person is ideologically possessed they do not use their own thoughts they become a mouth piece for their group spewing out the same rhetoric which is very predictable and boring. it often happens that people who may not fit into a group like feminism will hear the rhetoric in the media and on web sights and then start repeating them. like Obama saying 90% of all scientists believe in global warming or that Trump advocates grabbing women by the *&^%$%$

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm guessing you don't spend much time reading the comments on public social media posts. I try not to, but sometimes I can't help myself and then I'm reminded why I stay away. Based on that alone, I would conclude that the US is overrun with victim blamers (both men and women) as well as some real slime balls. So I think our perceptions certainly are affected by the people we are exposed to, either personally or through cesspools... I mean social networks like Facebook and Twitter.

I don't. There's significant evidence that moderate voices are not what you find on those kinds of media (this is what I was saying before about the bias of sources), which I think is what you were getting at.

There are some interesting articles about the psychology of victim blaming. There's a concept called the "just world" where people have a need to believe that we live in a just society so they start trying to rationalize why bad things happen to people. Here's a few articles about it (along with some other theories):

Psychology Today - Why do people blame the victim?

The Atlantic - The psychology of victim-blaming

Regarding the assertion @Tez3 made about educating men to stop assaulting women, there has actually been some interesting stuff done in this area. I remember seeing something about it on tv years ago and I'm sure if this is the same program I saw, but there's an educational movement in Kenya that's actually having a good impact. It initially started as an educational program for girls to assert themselves in saying no and providing some self-defense training, but its organizers smartly recognized that they need to change boys' attitudes as well. Now more boys are intervening when they see an assault and reported rapes are down. Check it out:

Teaching boys that 'real men' would stop rape

That's what I was getting at earlier about cultural issues. There are definitely cultures that have okayed rape (many in the past, some still extant). That's something that can definitely (and demonstrably) be changed by education and social pressure. There's a point at which it's not the culture, but the individual, and I'm not aware of any evidence that education is effective beyond that point (I'd be happy to be wrong about that). Classifying all of these together makes it difficult to discuss the difficulties around that latter category.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

personally, I think this is a big topic that invariably ends up leading a bunch of folks who agree that rape is wrong to get angry with each other. Each person convinced the other is smug, arrogant, and/or ignorant.

There are things we can do to educate both young men and young women. I don't think blaming a girl for their assualt is right. I also don't think blaming a boy for something his friend did is right either.

I really wanted to make one of my casual jokes out of this, Steve, but I think it's too good a post to mess with. Well said.

 

[Orion Nebula]

i think i do. however it is based on my own experience living in the USA. you bring up Kenya

and this partially fits my thoughts on the matter. Kenya and the USA are different and not by a little bit. As i see it that part of the world has real issues and i would totally agree a rape culture exists there as well as other parts of the world. however we need to differentiate between real and perceived and this is where ideologies get in the way of discussion.

Good points. I wonder if the disagreement about the existence of rape culture stems from semantics? While I don't know much about Kenya beyond a few Internet articles, I would agree that it appears to have a very obvious rape culture in that it seems like boys have traditionally been taught through their culture that they can do what they want with women. Whereas in the USA, almost no one thinks rape/assault is a good idea. Yet sexual assault is still prevalent and I would guess in most cases, the assailant thinks it was either ok to do or not their fault. Behaviors and attitudes in our society help lead to this, so what do we call it if not rape culture? But I do understand what you're getting at here. Rape in the USA generally isn't guys prowling the streets for prey, although there are certainly men out there who view women in this way. It's most often people not understanding what consent is and people getting drunk and making bad decisions. How do we describe that? I think it's part of human nature to first describe a problem before being able to tackle it. I get the sense that you don't like labels and categorizing things into neat little boxes, but a lot of people think this way.

[QUOTE="hoshin1600, post: 1952992, member: 32360"]
however for me to advise my daughter (if i had one) not to go out at night dressed like a saturday night street walker is not a form of "Toxic masculinity" its just the right thing to do on many levels. nor does that advise make it ok for bad people to do bad things. there has to be responsibility on both sides. but the current flavor is to blame one side and remove all responsibility from the other.
now i need to make one thing very very clear ...i am not talking about children here. my comments are about adults and young adults. again there are complexities to the issues. complexity has a tendency to nullify blanket statements. [/QUOTE]

I agree that giving out advice on how to be safe shouldn't be considered sexist, toxic, etc. However, I think it's easy to understand why making a statement like that about women in general would be easy to interpret as laying the responsibility solely on women, which is why I think Tez3 took offense. It's frequently the case that people of both genders will dole out suggestions for how women should adjust their behavior but don't mention how men should adjust theirs. If you're chatting with your daughter, sure, it doesn't make sense to bring up guys because they aren't there to hear you, and I don't think anyone reasonable would accuse you of sexism or perpetuating rape culture because you were trying help keep your hypothetical daughter safe.

[QUOTE="hoshin1600, post: 1952992, member: 32360"]
i dont deal in "THEM" why do we need to define people into groups? i deal with individuals every day all day long. somehow i think the
will object to being called [I]not a real feminist.[/I][/QUOTE]

Fair enough. It's true that we don't need to divide people into groups, but people do a good job doing it (as well as dividing themselves). And you're right, the angry stereotype would be pissed that I said she wasn't a real feminist, but by definition she's not if she doesn't think men should be around.

[QUOTE="hoshin1600, post: 1952992, member: 32360"]
but honestly my point is identity politics will not create solutions or in this case keep girls and women safe. focus on the individual responsibility of both the assailant and the victim[/QUOTE]

I want there to be a thumbs up emoji, but there's not