"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[Xue Sheng107 25]

“As one man can defeat ten men, so can one thousand men defeat ten thousand. However, you can become a master of strategy by training alone with a sword, so that you can understand the enemy’s stratagems, his strength and resources, and come to appreciate how to apply strategy to beat ten thousand enemies.”
In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance.

You must research this well.”

- M.Musashi

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

It's a great novel! But it's a novel.

We know more about him than many of his contemporaries, and even noblemen of the period.

The point is many people think they know a lot about him when in fact we have a ‘Downtown Abbey/Bridgerton’ understanding of him (thanks to that novel) despite his image being incredibly famous especially compared to nebulous ‘noblemen’ that you suggest. Some say he never bathed and therefore reeked of BO, had eczema and disfiguring skin lesions, others say this was propaganda by those who disliked him and he was perfectly normal in appearance. Some say was over 2.00 metres tall when the average height of a bushi was about 1.52m. The only vaguely credible historical information on him is from the Kokura Hibun memorial tablet erected by his adopted son, Iori; perhaps not an unbiased account of his life.

More like because he was forced into the situation by a clan who propped up a young boy to head it. Matashichiro had uncles, even great uncles who could've headed the clan.

That’s not the point. He made the final decision to kill a child for his own reputational promotion when there were other options (like going for those uncles and aunties or whatever). He looked into the face of a probably terrified child and killed him…at the short range that is the length of a sword.

As a younger man, I don’t think he was a moral person and certainly not very pleasant to be around. In his older age he had regrets about his behaviour and modified his aberrant character. But this is just unsubstantiated conjecture, like almost everything else written about him.

Tsukahara Bokuden, in my opinion, is more worthy of admiration, not least because he bathed everyday!

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

Memorial statue adjacent to Musashi’s grave (Pre-Mounjaro…me not him)

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

Musashi’s resting place. He was supposedly buried in full armour, seated on a stool facing the road entering Kumamoto so he could watch his patron daimyo procession entering the city.

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

At Reigando, the cave Musashi spent his last few years and wrote ‘A Book of Five Rings’. His reported symptoms suggest he probably died of stomach cancer (‘igan’).

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

 

[Same Trick59 10]

The point is many people think they know a lot about him when in fact we have a ‘Downtown Abbey/Bridgerton’ understanding of him (thanks to that novel) despite his image being incredibly famous especially compared to nebulous ‘noblemen’ that you suggest. Some say he never bathed and therefore reeked of BO, had eczema and disfiguring skin lesions, others say this was propaganda by those who disliked him and he was perfectly normal in appearance. Some say was over 2.00 metres tall when the average height of a bushi was about 1.52m. The only vaguely credible historical information on him is from the Kokura Hibun memorial tablet erected by his adopted son, Iori; perhaps not an unbiased account of his life.

That’s not the point. He made the final decision to kill a child for his own reputational promotion when there were other options (like going for those uncles and aunties or whatever). He looked into the face of a probably terrified child and killed him…at the short range that is the length of a sword.

As a younger man, I don’t think he was a moral person and certainly not very pleasant to be around. In his older age he had regrets about his behaviour and modified his aberrant character. But this is just unsubstantiated conjecture, like almost everything else written about him.

Tsukahara Bokuden, in my opinion, is more worthy of admiration, not least because he bathed everyday!

Hmmm how do you know so much about M.M when there’s not much known about him ?

I know only of two books by him and some paintings.

From the book he supposedly wrote in the absolute final of his life -

“do not regret what you have done”
- M.M
—
Ok, I should have scrolled down a cm or so, I see you’re a dedicated M.M fan

 

[Haruhiko]

Tsukahara Bokuden

The man whose own legend says he parried Musashi with a wooden pan lid? Despite Musashi not having been born yet?

had eczema and disfiguring skin lesions

There's some (I can't recall where) historical records into this.

Some say was over 2.00 metres tall when the average height of a bushi was about 1.52m. The only vaguely credible historical information on him is from the Kokura Hibun memorial tablet erected by his adopted son, Iori; perhaps not an unbiased account of his life.

He was notably large, near all accounts mention his size. The most credible account, in my opinion, is in his own writings.

kill a child for his own reputational promotion

He was embroiled in a conspiracy that to us seems pretty, but at the time, involved a great sword school of Kyoto that had previously been publicly tested in an organised fight by his adoptive father, Shinmen Munisai.

It's not as cut and dry as one would typically read from the available accounts. There's context.

He looked into the face of a probably terrified child and killed him…at the short range that is the length of a sword.

Now that's conjecture!

certainly not very pleasant to be around.

See above.

Had this been the case, he would not have had been an honoured guest of the Hosokawa with a stipend.

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

The man whose own legend says he parried Musashi with a wooden pan lid? Despite Musashi not having been born yet?

That is a well known misappropriation made famous by a woodblock print. It probably came from the author of ‘that’ book’

There's some (I can't recall where) historical records into this.

Fiction. It’s a myth.

He was notably large, near all accounts mention his size.

You don’t seem to understand the idea that just because it’s written down/widely spoke of/is on the Internet it might be at the very least, hyperbole. William Wallace was 7 feet tall, Robin Hood existed, 2000 years ago a rabbi in the middle east was the son of…you get the idea.

The most credible account, in my opinion, is in his own writings.

Other than a list of his duels he doesn’t mention anything autobiographical.

He was embroiled in a conspiracy that to us seems pretty, but at the time, involved a great sword school of Kyoto that had previously been publicly tested in an organised fight by his adoptive father, Shinmen Munisai.

It's not as cut and dry as one would typically read from the available accounts. There's context.



Now that's conjecture!



See above.

Had this been the case, he would not have had been an honoured guest of the Hosokawa with a stipend.

You’re clearly a huge fan of Musashi and he was perfect. I’ll leave you to opinions…

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

Hmmm how do you know so much about M.M when there’s not much known about him ?

I’ve read some of the bollo*ks like everyone else, but I’ve also read more well research books such as Kenji Tokitsu, William Scott Wilson and Alex Bennett. Also my Kendo club president (RIP) was the first to translate Gorin no who into English and we often discussed the man over a small glass of real ale; small because they were short discussions due to lack of credible data on him!

I know only of two books by him and some paintings.

From the book he supposedly wrote in the absolute final of his life -

“do not regret what you have done”

My distinct impression is that he did regret some of his behaviour as a young man; but that’s my unsubstantiated conjecture.

- M.M
—
Ok, I should have scrolled down a cm or so, I see you’re a dedicated M.M fan

He was an interesting character leaving behind some amazing art and fascinating writings (although despite my huge intellect, I find impenetrable, for a well-cited reason). I even have two versions of his wonderful Fudo Myōo carving.

But I’m not blinded by my admiration for his achievements; he’s not my perfect hero. You often have to read around a subject to get a better idea of who they were and that often leads to a greyness of opinion.

By way of example, if you read the popular story of the Forty Seven Rōnin (the Akō Incident) one gets the impression of heroic figures avenging the unjust death of their lord Asanō. Then you read Hagakure and see a bit of a criticism of their conduct and you think, ‘hang on a second…’. Then you read several contemporaneous historical accounts and you realise that their behaviour was an attempt to remain in employment after their clan was disbanded and the order for them to commit seppuku was just, considering their crime! Lord Asanō was too busy ‘chasing skirt’, drinking and neglecting his feifdom rather than practising swordsmanship etc which is why he was unable to kill Kira with a sword…from behind! And Kira was a decent man too!

So you must read credible, researched accounts which is what I try to do! It can be exhausting, which is why people don’t bother.

 

[Same Trick59 10]

I’ve read some of the bollo*ks like everyone else, but I’ve also read more well research books such as Kenji Tokitsu, William Scott Wilson and Alex Bennett. Also my Kendo club president (RIP) was the first to translate Gorin no who into English and we often discussed the man over a small glass of real ale; small because they were short discussions due to lack of credible data on him!

My distinct impression is that he did regret some of his behaviour as a young man; but that’s my unsubstantiated conjecture.

He was an interesting character leaving behind some amazing art and fascinating writings (although despite my huge intellect, I find impenetrable, for a well-cited reason). I even have two versions of his wonderful Fudo Myōo carving.

But I’m not blinded by my admiration for his achievements; he’s not my perfect hero. You often have to read around a subject to get a better idea of who they were and that often leads to a greyness of opinion.

By way of example, if you read the popular story of the Forty Seven Rōnin (the Akō Incident) one gets the impression of heroic figures avenging the unjust death of their lord Asanō. Then you read Hagakure and see a bit of a criticism of their conduct and you think, ‘hang on a second…’. Then you read several contemporaneous historical accounts and you realise that their behaviour was an attempt to remain in employment after their clan was disbanded and the order for them to commit seppuku was just, considering their crime! Lord Asanō was too busy ‘chasing skirt’, drinking and neglecting his feifdom rather than practising swordsmanship etc which is why he was unable to kill Kira with a sword…from behind! And Kira was a decent man too!

So you must read credible, researched accounts which is what I try to do! It can be exhausting, which is why people don’t bother.

I’m not sure if anyone actually has thought of M.M as a hero, at best perhaps an antihero but for sure an interesting historical character.

I’m sure there were no noble knights anywhere but in the stories that came after.

47 ronin ! I haven’t read, but - “The 47th Samurai”, I liked very much, try it , Stephen Hunter is the author, a master of action packed writing.

 

[Steve]

And some do, or does that make them non traditional? I’m so confused now.

Exactly.

 

[Haruhiko]

You don’t seem to understand the idea that just because it’s written down/widely spoke of/is on the Internet it might be at the very least, hyperbole.

Sure, definitely. Even Nitenki states:

"Musashi was about six shaku in height, with a powerful build and imposing bearing."

Other than a list of his duels he doesn’t mention anything autobiographical.

That's fair (though Gorin no Sho starts this way, it's written as an internal document for transmission). His other writings and second hand accounts are telling.

You’re clearly a huge fan of Musashi and he was perfect.

Yeah it comes with the ryū

I even have two versions of his wonderful Fudo Myōo carving.

I've never seen a true replica or even the original. It's allegedly in a private collection somewhere on Kyushu?

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Whatever Musashi's physical attributes or moral compass (as seen thru modern eyes) I think it's fair to say that he was dedicated to the development of his art and achieved a very high degree of excellence, as well as a good degree of skill in other non-martial arts. It can be further said he embraced what we view as the Samurai spirit. Most importantly, his teachings live on in his ryu and in applications to today's world. While no angel, he has earned his place in history.

 

[Haruhiko]

Whatever Musashi's physical attributes or moral compass (as seen thru modern eyes) I think it's fair to say that he was dedicated to the development of his art and achieved a very high degree of excellence, as well as a good degree of skill in other non-martial arts. It can be further said he embraced what we view as the Samurai spirit. Most importantly, his teachings live on in his ryu and in applications to today's world. While no angel, he has earned his place in history.

About the "samurai spirit" bit.

While Musashi-sensei certainly achieved mastery in many disciplines, he always made the point is was achieved through みち, or his Way, essentially, 兵法.

I think when he speaks of strategy, it's not exclusive to martial contexts at all. It was through martial arts he realised 兵法, and then was able to master many arts. It's an ineffable state, and no matter how many times I read Ku no Maki, I can't begin to comprehend his individuation of self, let alone appreciate the text without extensive guided study.

To a layperson it would read as arrogant, but reminding ourselves that Gorin no Sho was written for Terao Magonojo, makes it less of a preaching read and more grounded with intent. It's personal, direct, and doesn't use overly flowery language. Much like the seihō kata.

Deceptively genius, both him and his writings/works.

Though I'm biased of course.

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

Whatever Musashi's physical attributes or moral compass (as seen thru modern eyes)

Even at the time, some viewed his behaviour as aberrant. I was reading an interview with the last head of the oldest extant school of martial arts (Tenshinshoden Katori Shintō Ryu), Otake Risuke, and he made a veiled criticism of Musashi that I’ve heard him use a fair few times over the decades…

‘…many martial artists of the Warring state period (1467-1615) had a penchant for duelling and engaged in shinken shobu (challenges with real swords) or fought each other with bokutō (wooden sabres). There are stories that some of them defeated scores, over sixty opponents without being defeated. These men were murderers and thus have no descendants today.’

I think it's fair to say that he was dedicated to the development of his art and achieved a very high degree of excellence, as well as a good degree of skill in other non-martial arts.

My brother has a patient just like that. He’s as big as a barn door, drink 10-13 bottles of wine on a Saturday night and goes out looking for fights to refine his bare knuckle skills (he’s a prize fighter from the travelling community). If you look at him in a ‘funny manner’ he’ll put you in hospital. He’s also a skillful watercolour painter.

It can be further said he embraced what we view as the Samurai spirit.

Hmmm…our modern idea of samurai spirit, perhaps. Samurai were supposed to adhere , closely to the Confucian ideals of Ren (benevolence), Li (ritual propriety/etiquette), Xioa (filial piety) and Yi (righteousness), an attitude clear in Otake Risuke’s statement above. I’ll leave it up to your to decide if Musashi lived to these principles.

Most importantly, his teachings live on in his ryu and in applications to today's world. While no angel, he has earned his place in history.

Even his Ryu is, at best, a syncretic art. He left no definitive texts on his teaching (only vague ones) and it was left to his students, good and bad, to carry things on and we all know what happens with ‘word of mouth’ (Telephone game) and masters adding their own spin on things. I bet Musashi wouldn’t recognise much within modern takes on Niten Ryu.

I agree that he’s earned his place in history but i it might be somewhat like Bruce Lee’s; subject to modern hype.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Welcome back.

Thanks

Not much to say these days without sounding like a stuck record

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

Thanks

Not much to say these days without sounding like a stuck record

That’s what we do here. We have an entire stable of long dead horses that we roll out and beat.

 

[Wing Woo Gar49 11]

Even at the time, some viewed his behaviour as aberrant. I was reading an interview with the last head of the oldest extant school of martial arts (Tenshinshoden Katori Shintō Ryu), Otake Risuke, and he made a veiled criticism of Musashi that I’ve heard him use a fair few times over the decades…

‘…many martial artists of the Warring state period (1467-1615) had a penchant for duelling and engaged in shinken shobu (challenges with real swords) or fought each other with bokutō (wooden sabres). There are stories that some of them defeated scores, over sixty opponents without being defeated. These men were murderers and thus have no descendants today.’


My brother has a patient just like that. He’s as big as a barn door, drink 10-13 bottles of wine on a Saturday night and goes out looking for fights to refine his bare knuckle skills (he’s a prize fighter from the travelling community). If you look at him in a ‘funny manner’ he’ll put you in hospital. He’s also a skillful watercolour painter.

Hmmm…our modern idea of samurai spirit, perhaps. Samurai were supposed to adhere , closely to the Confucian ideals of Ren (benevolence), Li (ritual propriety/etiquette), Xioa (filial piety) and Yi (righteousness), an attitude clear in Otake Risuke’s statement above. I’ll leave it up to your to decide if Musashi lived to these principles.


Even his Ryu is, at best, a syncretic art. He left no definitive texts on his teaching (only vague ones) and it was left to his students, good and bad, to carry things on and we all know what happens with ‘word of mouth’ (Telephone game) and masters adding their own spin on things. I bet Musashi wouldn’t recognise much within modern takes on Niten Ryu.

I agree that he’s earned his place in history but i it might be somewhat like Bruce Lee’s; subject to modern hype.

A bare knuckle boxing pikey? Who knew? I loved the movie “snatch”.

 

[Gyakuto114 123]

That’s what we do here. We have an entire stable of long dead horses that we roll out and beat.

You do. We don’t.