"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[Same Trick93 44]

Didnt Musashi duel using bokken? Didnt he smash beyond repair the arm of the heir apparent of some famous Daimyo? Didnt he defeat Sasaki Kojiro with a carved piece of wooden oar?

As was mentioned in thread - “bokken is just a stick” . Musashi using “just a stick” might have been just what he wanted his opponents to think and being over confident with their real sword, much as a stick swinger may be over confident against a barehander …

and also about musashi he made sure opponent was taken by surprise(him jumping down from on them from hiding up in trees) or annoying/ enraging opponents by arriving to duels much later than agreed on (part of strategy to unstable opponent)

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Are you seriously comparing anyone who currently trains in a sword art to Musashi? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Edit: Just to be more clear, you started with @Gyakuto and then jumped to Musashi. What struck my funny bone is that, Musashi is really, really dead. I don't think he'd do very well in a duel, at all.

Which is pretty much the point made earlier, that the classical/traditional training model looks for validation in the past. He was effective, ergo my training is effective. Where modern styles look forward. My students are effective, ergo my training is effective.

“As one man can defeat ten men, so can one thousand men defeat ten thousand. However, you can become a master of strategy by training alone with a sword, so that you can understand the enemy’s stratagems, his strength and resources, and come to appreciate how to apply strategy to beat ten thousand enemies.”
In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance.

You must research this well.”

- M.Musashi

 

[drop bear146 22]

Separate note, I’m curious if you think average traditional hobbyist mid level belt level kata guy with limited sparring experience would fare better or worse than an untrained regular guy? Neither one has ever been in a real fight. To be fair I don’t really have a dog in this fight. I’m not a big kata/ form guy. My teachers knew them, but saw them as review rather than functional as teaching methods in and of themselves. I see value in that respect, and as a way to teach flow and speed in execution. This is only possible and useful after the basic foundations are established and very strong. Lots of flowery kata or forms in a style is suspect in my opinion. I don’t think a form teaches anything about fighting. Fighting is learned by fighting. I don’t need to kill things to learn to shoot proficiently. But I do need to regularly practice a set of skills in repetition similar to a kata.

Obviously depends on a lot of factors.

But i think if average guy spent the same time doing anything like strength and conditioning. Then kata guy is in trouble.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Obviously depends on a lot of factors.

But i think if average guy spent the same time doing anything like strength and conditioning. Then kata guy is in trouble.

Maybe you are moving the goal post a bit now.

 

[Gyakuto147 156]

Didnt Musashi duel using bokken? Didnt he smash beyond repair the arm of the heir apparent of some famous Daimyo? Didnt he defeat Sasaki Kojiro with a carved piece of wooden oar?

The exception to the rule, perhaps? Musashi was extraordinarily aggressive and some say tall and powerfully built (remember, we know very little about him… very, very little. Most of what people believe about his is from that awful novel by Yoshikawa). Real ‘urban’ sword fighting is a lot less slashy/clashy than suggested in Samurai films; the swords would badly chip or even just break. Duels would be more like this-

This scene from Seven Samurai is based upon, almost verbatim, a real duel that Yagyu Mistutoshi won.

Musashi would’ve carefully picked the point(s) at which crush his enemy’s skulls with his stick and that’s quite a skill, but he only occasionally used a bokutō in his duels, favouring real swords on the whole.

The ‘crushed arm incident’ occurred within the Yoshioka Clan of sword masters the successive heads of whom Musashi systematically slaughtered including the 12 year old boy (some accounts say 9 years old) they put forward as the head when everyone else was dead! Yes, Musashi cut up a small boy to prove his prowess and gain a reputation . The Yoshioka were, and are still a famous family of cloth dyers in Kyoto and I had the opportunity to meet one of them a few years ago. It was awkward as I feared I might blurt out “MUSASHI KILLED YOU ALL!” in a momentary Tourettes-like outburst!

I didn’t…

 

[drop bear146 22]

Maybe you are moving the goal post a bit now.

I am but life doesn't happen in a vacuum.

I mean if we were to go back to a sports fighter vs a weapons man.

And we give them both baseball bats and let them get on with it.

The MMA guy has probably done some strength and conditioning. So now we compare kata vs no weapons training.

And we have these very important factors of training that may change the results.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

I am but life doesn't happen in a vacuum.

I mean if we were to go back to a sports fighter vs a weapons man.

And we give them both baseball bats and let them get on with it.

The MMA guy has probably done some strength and conditioning. So now we compare kata vs no weapons training.

And we have these very important factors of training that may change the results.

Why couldn’t a traditionalist do strength and conditioning too ?
Donn F Dreager did

 

[Gyakuto147 156]

I, and most of my younger Iai friends, workout at the gym because it makes moving around and up off the floor, often from awkward positions so much easier. The old codgers generally don’t bother and end up doing only standing kata Although Dave, at 95 years old, can still kneel down and do kata getting up from the floor!

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Why couldn’t a traditionalist do strength and conditioning too ?
Donn F Dreager did

I do too.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

I am but life doesn't happen in a vacuum.

I mean if we were to go back to a sports fighter vs a weapons man.

And we give them both baseball bats and let them get on with it.

The MMA guy has probably done some strength and conditioning. So now we compare kata vs no weapons training.

And we have these very important factors of training that may change the results.

I was joking about a sword guy vs mma guy. That’s all it was, some levity.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Also joking about Musashi Miyamoto.

 

[Gyakuto147 156]

Also joking about Musashi Miyamoto.

NEVER joke about Musashi

 

[drop bear146 22]

Why couldn’t a traditionalist do strength and conditioning too ?
Donn F Dreager did

Traditionalist could also pressure test as well.

 

[Steve]

Traditionalist could also pressure test as well.

It would end up looking a lot sportier, though, and less traditional.

 

[drop bear146 22]

It would end up looking a lot sportier, though, and less traditional.

Dammit.

Foiled

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Traditionalist could also pressure test as well.

As I wrote somewhere previously in the thread, I believe quite a few - when it comes to Koryu martial arts - comes from kendo judo or other Japanese sports ma’s, and from that perspective can see and appreciate the (martial)value in the traditional ma’s..
I myself have never practiced Japanese Koryu martial arts but clearly see the martial function in them

 

[Haruhiko]

awful novel by Yoshikawa

It's a great novel! But it's a novel.

remember, we know very little about him… very, very little. Most of what people believe about his is from that awful novel by Yoshikawa

We know more about him than many of his contemporaries, and even noblemen of the period.

Yes, Musashi cut up a small boy to prove his prowess and gain a reputation .

More like because he was forced into the situation by a clan who propped up a young boy to head it. Matashichiro had uncles, even great uncles who could've headed the clan.

 

[Haruhiko]

Traditionalist could also pressure test as well.

We do.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Traditionalist could also pressure test as well.

And some do, or does that make them non traditional? I’m so confused now.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

It's a great novel! But it's a novel.



We know more about him than many of his contemporaries, and even noblemen of the period.



More like because he was forced into the situation by a clan who propped up a young boy to head it. Matashichiro had uncles, even great uncles who could've headed the clan.

Read the novel, I hated the love interest even more than I hated “Minmei” from robotech. That was 45 years ago and I still remember…