"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[isshinryuronin37 37]

During the ancient Chinese time, people took striking away from the Chinese wrestling sport and made it into a safe wrestling sport. Today, we put striking back into Chinese wrestling.

Are we truly changing the traditional Chinese wrestling? Or are we just bringing the Chinese wrestling back to what it was before?

This is exactly the flip side of what's happening in karate where the traditional grappling is being "rediscovered."

Japanese koryu sword methods there’s an intense focus on getting and harness the importance of timing and positioning, that’s perhaps because I have to some degree engaged myself to the sport side within the karate practice I used to be into, and I do get the impression that quite a few doing koryu actually have kendo and judo experience and out of that see the martial reality within those traditional Japanese martial arts ?

This is what I experienced getting into iaido with a strong karate background. My sword technique was significantly different from those without such a background, adding more aggressive combat intent and a bit more power.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

This is what I experienced getting into iaido with a strong karate background. My sword technique was significantly different from those without such a background, adding more aggressive combat intent and a bit more power.

after many years in karate I began to dabble somewhat in Aikido(alongside my karate practice), I found it not easy especially when paired with the instructor, I was putting too much emphasis on power, or just putting power into it, it didn’t work for the circular and delicate Aikido methods I tried to replicate.
That specific line of Aikido was from Shoji Nishio that put somewhat stronger emphasize on Aikido’s relation to methods of the Japanese sword.
The Japanese sword is curved so to aid its cutting prowess, but in practice with it one’s cutting action should also be somewhat curved(circular) so to aid the already curved blade…on the whole, a delicate sharp focus rather than “power” worked best….
However, my karate background worked fine in the beginners and intermediate class

 

[Hyoho2]

Genuine question: Do you see how this could present a concern? Looking back at historical practitioners doesn’t necessarily relate to the abilities of current students or their practical skill level, even if we assume the original practitioners were highly capable. A teacher’s expertise doesn’t automatically translate into student performance.

My opinion on that would be that good leaders that can not only demonstrate to a high degree but to be able to teach come in waves. I have been very fortunate to have been taught and nurtured by people like this.

 

[Hyoho2]

Well you're wrong. Let's start high-level at the committees and bureaucracies surrounding koryū:

1. Nihon Kobudō Kyōkai (日本古武道協会) – established 1979, affiliated with the Agency for Cultural Affairs, and organiser of the annual Meiji Shrine Kobudō Enbu. It maintains a curated registry of recognised classical ryū.
   
   
2. Nihon Kobudō Shinkōkai (日本古武道振興会) – founded 1935, focused on preservation and public demonstration of classical martial traditions.

These bodies do not judge “who can win a fight.” They evaluate historical continuity, documented succession, and recognised transmission. In your words: "structural legitimacy".

Speaking of, Prof. Karl Friday wrote an article aptly named "The Whole Legitimacy Thing":

The Whole Legitimacy Thing | Koryu.com | The Classical Martial Arts Resource

I've been following the discussion of the issue of authorized vs. unsanctioned instruction in koryu arts, specifically with respect to the Katori Shint ...

koryu.com

As for the "beating people up" part... yeah... I can't say I've ever considered that a requisite for any martial art I've trained in. Ever.

When I was Koho Bucho of the ryu, my Soke and his successor left Nihon Kobudō Shinkōkai (日本古武道振興会). Most of the well known ryu had already joined Nihon Kobudō Kyōkai (日本古武道協会) with it's link to Monbushu (Department of Education). Looking at the present line up of Shinkokai it has a lot of "also rans" that cannot join Nihon Kobudō Kyōkai. It was a good move by them.

 

[Hyoho2]

So you could walk in to a Karate school and show them. Whatever that was. And expect them to take you seriously?

As far as Shinkokai is concerned? Yes!

 

[Hyoho2]

Are ppl saying that practitioners of classic/traditional MA’s, say Japanese Koryu that practice with razor sharp swords should actually free spirited try to cut each other down as pressure testing, if they don’t do that it ain’t MA ?

Well that's what I practiced. Not a blade but a bokuto being used with the intention of almost hitting the floor to cut you is good enough to kill you. But as you say "pressure testing". Uchidachi pushing you constantly to deal with harder and faster cuts. Then when Nippon Budokan embu comes along? You had better be ready. All chances of Uchidachi being nice go out the window. My founder gave up on real blades at the age of 32 when he was just killing people with bokuto.

 

[isshinryuronin37 37]

Traditional martial artists are like me before that first project: they’ve learned techniques in a controlled environment but haven’t had to solve unpredictable, real‑world problems.

It all comes down to training - What do I do if someone grabs my shoulder, does a cross or same side wrist grab, a straight punch or roundhouse kick? Combinations to deal with such threats are drilled to reduce reaction time. Some are found in kata, many are not. Once the body programs itself into near automatic response they must be practiced against a partner attacking you with progressively more speed and resistance.

This can get one physically prepared, but there is a mental side as well. I think the most important thing in practice is visualizing an opponent and doing each rep with intent! More so than seeking perfect form in technique, though this should not be totally ignored as it will make technique more efficient. My kata may not be impressive like a Shotokan kata champion, but as a fighting template will better reflect combat (and IMO, makes it more fun to do).

Improvisation also comes into play, the ability to get off a script and adlib as you might see at a comedy club or seeing a jazz quartet freestyle jam, bouncing off one another. This takes a lot of skill and familiarity with your craft. It all comes down to training and having a free spirit to leave that training behind, allowing the body to act in real time to a situation. This, I think, is a main goal in TMA and difficult to achieve.

All the above I think reflects the practitioner's best path, short of following Motobu Choki's method of downing a few drinks and heading out to the bad part of town, picking fights to test his technique. This is more self-defense training than I care to engage in.

 

[HighKick]

This is exactly the flip side of what's happening in karate where the traditional grappling is being "rediscovered."

This is what I experienced getting into iaido with a strong karate background. My sword technique was significantly different from those without such a background, adding more aggressive combat intent and a bit more power.

I am a longtime TKD guy who made it all the way to the Olympic Trials in '87-'88. I will soundly state that WT/KKW-TKD had too much influence for too long and it hurt more than just TKD. Styles got caught up in being too singular and competition friendly. They forgot what learning a martial art (any MA) is about. I was very guilty of this in my competition days.
My original TKD training (Moo Duk Kwan) was/is far from narrow and had a decent amount of groundwork and moderate grappling. A Lot of this vanished for some time while WT/KKW was on the rise. After I got my own competing (somewhat) out of my system, I started re-introducing the full MDK curriculum and even added a healthy amount of wrestling from my high-school and college competing days.

The ebb away from fully grappling (MMA/BJJ) is starting to happen. No, it should Not go away, ever. But, "Too much of any one thing" is usually a bad thing and we are see this occur in real time. Just slower since MMA/BJJ had/has a very, very different marketing approach and regional starting point.

 

[drop bear146 22]

As far as Shinkokai is concerned? Yes!

He said no.

But he also said he is not interested in the combat side of martial arts.

Which would be the more easily transferable skill to another style.

 

[Gyakuto147 156]

This is exactly the flip side of what's happening in karate where the traditional grappling is being "rediscovered."

This is what I experienced getting into iaido with a strong karate background. My sword technique was significantly different from those without such a background, adding more aggressive combat intent and a bit more power.

These are know as the 'Paradoxes of Iai'

1. To cut effectively one must not use force. Using force slows down the blade, reduces the impact speed of the blade and makes it less effective in cutting. Using too much force can also produce incorrect hasuji and lead to a damaged and even bent blade because of the angle of impact on the target. The application of smooth speed by using the correct (and small) force, make or easier to cut through the target with little effort.

2. Even though a movement, such as katate uchi or noto appears to be performed with the right hand, or is in fact the movement of the LEFT hand that is critical in its correct execution. All correctly performed movements start for a point furthest away form the enemy similar to the way a boxer or karateka powers their punch from the feet, firmly in contact with the ground.

3. The imaginary opponent -kaso teki- introduces the issue of over-aggressiveness. In fact the opponent in front of us is or own ego and if this ego can be negotiated with, our aggression can be tamed allowing us to attend to perfecting our technique which ironically becomes weaker and less effective due to the lack of 'combat instinct'! Thus we try and reinstate kaso teki and our movements become stiff, too powerful and ineffective.

To avoid this one must develop a sense of 'detachment' from the performance of ones movements, especially in real combat but this is very difficult to achieve especially in the simulated combat that is Iai.

 

[Haruhiko]

He said no.

@Hyoho was responding in a tongue in cheek way about the Shinkokai and their standards for kōbudō, I believe.

But he also said he is not interested in the combat side of martial arts.

I never said that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

These are know as the 'Paradoxes of Iai'

1. To cut effectively one must not use force. Using force slows down the blade, reduces the impact speed of the blade and makes it less effective in cutting. Using too much force can also produce incorrect hasuji and lead to a damaged and even bent blade because of the angle of impact on the target. The application of smooth speed by using the correct (and small) force, make or easier to cut through the target with little effort.

2. Even though a movement, such as katate uchi or noto appears to be performed with the right hand, or is in fact the movement of the LEFT hand that is critical in its correct execution. All correctly performed movements start for a point furthest away form the enemy similar to the way a boxer or karateka powers their punch from the feet, firmly in contact with the ground.

3. The imaginary opponent -kaso teki- introduces the issue of over-aggressiveness. In fact the opponent in front of us is or own ego and if this ego can be negotiated with, our aggression can be tamed allowing us to attend to perfecting our technique which ironically becomes weaker and less effective due to the lack of 'combat instinct'! Thus we try and reinstate kaso teki and our movements become stiff, too powerful and ineffective.

To avoid this one must develop a sense of 'detachment' from the performance of ones movements, especially in real combat but this is very difficult to achieve especially in the simulated combat that is Iai.

I can’t help but wonder how well you would do against a “modern” style with bokken in hand. I admit I would love to see it…

 

[Flying Crane]

I can’t help but wonder how well you would do against a “modern” style with bokken in hand. I admit I would love to see it…

Do you mean like bokken vs. mma? I’d put my money on the bokken. Looking forward to seeing some smashed skulls there.

 

[Prince_Alarming84 20]

I think any athlete would lose against somebody doing something he doesn't do, to be fair. The real test would be a traditionally trained traditional martial artist with a bokken against an athlete trained to use a bokken in a way that applies MMA principles- 'aliveness', etc. Or even better, take two absolute beginners and put them through traditional and MMA-style training for a few months, then let them go at it.

 

[Steve]

I think any athlete would lose against somebody doing something he doesn't do, to be fair. The real test would be a traditionally trained traditional martial artist with a bokken against an athlete trained to use a bokken in a way that applies MMA principles- 'aliveness', etc. Or even better, take two absolute beginners and put them through traditional and MMA-style training for a few months, then let them go at it.

Dog Brothers is about as close to this as I've seen.

 

[Prince_Alarming84 20]

Dog Brothers is about as close to this as I've seen.

OK, well those guys are insane. They'll win.

 

[drop bear146 22]

I never said that.

"Dude, read into it however you like. I don't do martial arts with the intention of getting into a fight. I just don't."

 

[drop bear146 22]

Eh, I took it as self-awareness. Not everyone trains in a martial art to learn to fight. It's not a problem if it's above board and they're not being sold snake oil (or crystals).

and here we go.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

I think any athlete would lose against somebody doing something he doesn't do, to be fair. The real test would be a traditionally trained traditional martial artist with a bokken against an athlete trained to use a bokken in a way that applies MMA principles- 'aliveness', etc. Or even better, take two absolute beginners and put them through traditional and MMA-style training for a few months, then let them go at it.

The traditionalist(koryu) have daggers and throwing stars ready pulled from their sleeves vs the mma I tights shorts

 

[Same Trick93 44]

"Dude, read into it however you like. I don't do martial arts with the intention of getting into a fight. I just don't."

武 hold the characters of stop and spear