"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[Marsha Larts1 1]

Learn the rules to break them.

That's worth a login.

That idea has been the basis of many drills and exercises I've incorporated in the training to lend insight to the 'listening' you alluded to earlier, and that was predictably ignored.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

That's worth a login.

That idea has been the basis of many drills and exercises I've incorporated in the training to lend insight to the 'listening' you alluded to earlier, and that was predictably ignored.

Welcome back.

 

[Haruhiko]

We all know what weasel words are these days.

Illiteracy, apparently, is when the brain shuts down and one spouts "weasel words! I don't know what he's saying!"

 

[HighKick]

Learn the rules to break them.

Not break them but to be able to push right to the edge.

 

[drop bear146 22]

Illiteracy, apparently, is when the brain shuts down and one spouts "weasel words! I don't know what he's saying!"

Ok. So........
Weasel words.
Weasel words are intentionally vague, ambiguous, or misleading terms used to imply a specific, positive, or authoritative claim without actually making one. Common in advertising, politics, and, sometimes, weak writing, they allow speakers to avoid direct commitments or to "weasel out" of


"Nakayama Hakudo-sensei (and his entire school's lineal heads all the way up to Hayashizaki Jinsuke)

(OK. So. Quick Google.Nakayama Hakudō (中山 博道, February 11, 1872 - December 14, 1958), also known as Nakayama Hiromichi, was a Japanese martial artist and founder of the iaidō ...

He died in the 50s.

Were you around in the 50s? And of course all those other really cool guys who we don't know who did stuff we can't name. )

Musashi-sensei (and his lineal successors)

(What. The legendary swordsman musashi.?
Miyamoto Musashi (c. 1584–1645) was a legendary Japanese swordsman, philosopher, and ronin,

Same deal. He probablynever took your kids class. Did he?)


These are two schools I study and practice in. These two schools have produced hundreds of koryū and gendai budōka. Good ones."

(So this definitely. We don't know who they are. Or how good they are in comparison to anything. A popular example of a weasel word is "less fat" less fat than what? We don't know. )

 

[drop bear146 22]

Illiteracy, apparently, is when the brain shuts down and one spouts "weasel words! I don't know what he's saying!"

You create these complicated logic traps so that there is no good way of telling who knows what. But then you fall prey to it yourself.
So with my linage of master Shredder and the foot clan, and all the really sick martial artists who we have created. (You don't know them. But trust me. )

Means that I am every bit as legitimate as you are in the deadly ninja arts.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Not break them but to be able to push right to the edge.

As you please.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

You create these complicated logic traps so that there is no good way of telling who knows what. But then you fall prey to it yourself.
So with my linage of master Shredder and the foot clan, and all the really sick martial artists who we have created. (You don't know them. But trust me. )

Means that I am every bit as legitimate as you are in the deadly ninja arts.

So do mma?

 

[jks9199117 6]

Gentle folk,
Please remember that Martial Talk is supposed to be a friendly place, and that everyone contributes to that. Keep the posting friendly and be good to each other. Share ideas and thoughts, but leave animosity and meanness out of it. And, perhaps, keep it family friendly, too, okay. You never know when someone's grandmother of delicate sensibilities may stop in...

 

[Haruhiko]

The funniest thing about standing on this subjective worth hill. Is that I can claim to be as much of an expert at your system as anyone else. And I don't have to show any evidence to justify it.

I can just determine my own criteria for worth and therefore my own criteria for understanding. So I am actually an expert in your field. And there is nothing you can do about it.

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū is not an interpretive philosophy circle but a koryū with a documented line of transmission from Miyamoto Musashi to the present sōke.

Authority within the tradition is conferred through recognised licensing, direct transmission, and formal acknowledgement under the headmaster system, and these lineages are institutionally anchored within Japanese kobudō governance structures, where legitimacy depends on verified transmission and recognised authority, not personal assertion.

In this context, expertise is defined by documented lineage and licensure within the ryuha, not by self-declared equivalence. That is simply how koryū function structurally.

 

[Haruhiko]

And, perhaps, keep it family friendly, too, okay. You never know when someone's grandmother of delicate sensibilities may stop in...

I feel like my Catullus meme was personally attacked.

 

[Haruhiko]

Ok. So........
Weasel words.
Weasel words are intentionally vague, ambiguous, or misleading terms used to imply a specific, positive, or authoritative claim without actually making one. Common in advertising, politics, and, sometimes, weak writing, they allow speakers to avoid direct commitments or to "weasel out" of


"Nakayama Hakudo-sensei (and his entire school's lineal heads all the way up to Hayashizaki Jinsuke)

(OK. So. Quick Google.Nakayama Hakudō (中山 博道, February 11, 1872 - December 14, 1958), also known as Nakayama Hiromichi, was a Japanese martial artist and founder of the iaidō ...

He died in the 50s.

Were you around in the 50s? And of course all those other really cool guys who we don't know who did stuff we can't name. )

Musashi-sensei (and his lineal successors)

(What. The legendary swordsman musashi.?
Miyamoto Musashi (c. 1584–1645) was a legendary Japanese swordsman, philosopher, and ronin,

Same deal. He probablynever took your kids class. Did he?)


These are two schools I study and practice in. These two schools have produced hundreds of koryū and gendai budōka. Good ones."

(So this definitely. We don't know who they are. Or how good they are in comparison to anything. A popular example of a weasel word is "less fat" less fat than what? We don't know. )

Lineage in traditional arts refers to documented teacher-to-student transmission, not personal training with the founder. No one claims modern practitioners trained directly under Nakayama or Musashi.

The claim is that the tradition continued through successive generations.

By your logic, no classical musician today could claim to play in the tradition of Beethoven because Beethoven is dead. No philosopher could claim to work within the Aristotelian tradition because Aristotle isn’t alive. No university professor could claim academic lineage unless they studied directly under the original founder of their field.

That’s not how transmission works in any discipline. Martial arts, music, philosophy, or academia. Traditions persist through structured succession.

If you’re suggesting the lineage is fabricated, that’s a factual claim and should be supported with evidence. Otherwise, dismissing lineage simply because the founder is long dead misunderstands how historical traditions function.

 

[Steve]

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū is not an interpretive philosophy circle but a koryū with a documented line of transmission from Miyamoto Musashi to the present sōke.

Authority within the tradition is conferred through recognised licensing, direct transmission, and formal acknowledgement under the headmaster system, and these lineages are institutionally anchored within Japanese kobudō governance structures, where legitimacy depends on verified transmission and recognised authority, not personal assertion.

In this context, expertise is defined by documented lineage and licensure within the ryuha, not by self-declared equivalence. That is simply how koryū function structurally.

Genuine question: Do you see how this could present a concern? Looking back at historical practitioners doesn’t necessarily relate to the abilities of current students or their practical skill level, even if we assume the original practitioners were highly capable. A teacher’s expertise doesn’t automatically translate into student performance.

 

[Steve]

Lineage in traditional arts refers to documented teacher-to-student transmission, not personal training with the founder. No one claims modern practitioners trained directly under Nakayama or Musashi.

The claim is that the tradition continued through successive generations.

Spiritually, this might be true. But practically?

By your logic, no classical musician today could claim to play in the tradition of Beethoven because Beethoven is dead. No philosopher could claim to work within the Aristotelian tradition because Aristotle isn’t alive. No university professor could claim academic lineage unless they studied directly under the original founder of their field.

You can listen to a musician perform and evaluate their skill level objectively, regardless of where they trained or under whom.

That’s not how transmission works in any discipline. Martial arts, music, philosophy, or academia. Traditions persist through structured succession.

I must not understand your point because I really don’t think this is how it works anywhere outside of a subset of martial arts.

If you’re suggesting the lineage is fabricated, that’s a factual claim and should be supported with evidence. Otherwise, dismissing lineage simply because the founder is long dead misunderstands how historical traditions function.

I don’t think it’s about whether the lineage is fabricated. I think it’s a question of whether the lineage is relevant.

 

[Haruhiko]

Genuine question: Do you see how this could present a concern? Looking back at historical practitioners doesn’t necessarily relate to the abilities of current students or their practical skill level, even if we assume the original practitioners were highly capable. A teacher’s expertise doesn’t automatically translate into student performance.

Concern about what? Koryū that have survived through wars, the Meiji restoration, and particularly WW2 show at least the curational need for them.

Let's assume (admittedly not always the case, despite the sincerest efforts through study and practice) that a teacher teaches a student the entire school to such a satisfaction that the student inherits the school's leadership. This then goes on for centuries, with the same rigorous standards expected of the next generation.

Is the school the same? No. And yes. It's the ship of Theseus.

You can listen to a musician perform and evaluate their skill level objectively, regardless of where they trained or under whom.

I have seen embu of koryū schools that are, objectively, bad. You can watch these performances as a practitioner and likewise evaluate the skills objectively from an educated perspective.

I think it’s a question of whether the lineage is relevant.

Lineage/branches are certainly relevant.

Lineage does not guarantee quality, unfortunately — but it meaningfully increases the probability of structural coherence and technical preservation over time.

 

[drop bear146 22]

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū is not an interpretive philosophy circle but a koryū with a documented line of transmission from Miyamoto Musashi to the present sōke.

Authority within the tradition is conferred through recognised licensing, direct transmission, and formal acknowledgement under the headmaster system, and these lineages are institutionally anchored within Japanese kobudō governance structures, where legitimacy depends on verified transmission and recognised authority, not personal assertion.

In this context, expertise is defined by documented lineage and licensure within the ryuha, not by self-declared equivalence. That is simply how koryū function structurally.

The value you place in that is completely subjective.

The value I place in having fought giant turtles while wearing black pajamas is completely subjective.

Therefore the value is the same.

We are both experts. By the rules of your logic.

Exept I am just making stuff up.

 

[Haruhiko]

The value you place in that is completely subjective.

The value I place in having fought giant turtles while wearing black pajamas is completely subjective.

Therefore the value is the same.

We are both experts. By the rules of your logic.

Exept I am just making stuff up.

You’re confusing “I don’t personally value it” with “it has no structural legitimacy.” Those aren’t the same thing.

 

[drop bear146 22]

You’re confusing “I don’t personally value it” with “it has no structural legitimacy.” Those aren’t the same thing.

The structural legitimacy is a subjective value.

It doesn't exist outside your system.

Where of course the ability to beat someone up is independent of systems.

 

[Haruhiko]

The structural legitimacy is a subjective value.

It doesn't exist outside your system.

Where of course the ability to beat someone up is independent of systems.

Well you're wrong. Let's start high-level at the committees and bureaucracies surrounding koryū:

1. Nihon Kobudō Kyōkai (日本古武道協会) – established 1979, affiliated with the Agency for Cultural Affairs, and organiser of the annual Meiji Shrine Kobudō Enbu. It maintains a curated registry of recognised classical ryū.
   
   
2. Nihon Kobudō Shinkōkai (日本古武道振興会) – founded 1935, focused on preservation and public demonstration of classical martial traditions.

These bodies do not judge “who can win a fight.” They evaluate historical continuity, documented succession, and recognised transmission. In your words: "structural legitimacy".

Speaking of, Prof. Karl Friday wrote an article aptly named "The Whole Legitimacy Thing":

The Whole Legitimacy Thing | Koryu.com | The Classical Martial Arts Resource

I've been following the discussion of the issue of authorized vs. unsanctioned instruction in koryu arts, specifically with respect to the Katori Shint ...

koryu.com

As for the "beating people up" part... yeah... I can't say I've ever considered that a requisite for any martial art I've trained in. Ever.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

BJJ vs GJJ - modern vs classical

“Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (GJJ): Held onto the Gracie name to emphasize lineage and a philosophy centered on self-defense first.”

BJJ vs GJJ: One Art, Two Paths – Choosing the Right Jiu-Jitsu for You