drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
So you could walk in to a Karate school and show them. Whatever that was. And expect them to take you seriously?
"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts
- Thread starter Dirk WHKD Barmbek
- Start date
drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah. That's a weird flex.
That you would consider not being able to fight as some sort martial arts achievement.
drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
Speaking of relying on linage.
Its a weird one because Gracie Jujitsu might be one consistent thing. But Sport Jujitsu, or everything else definitely isn't.
I use lachlan guiles as an example. He is a sports BJJ guy. And a leg lock specialist. So you would assume his gym would be a terrible choice for self defence.
But you look at his gym timetable and its BJJ, MMA, boxing, muay thai. You name it. You can learn it.
Absolute MMA Collingwood Timetable
Absolute MMA Collingwood Timetable. MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ and much more!
absolutemma.com.au
Haruhiko
Brown Belt
N... no?
Because that's karate. I don't know anything about karate.
Dude, read into it however you like. I don't do martial arts with the intention of getting into a fight. I just don't.
I feel like I'm being trolled. This is senseless.
drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
So. We are back to this idea of functional worth. Something that you could add that benefits anyone.
If a martial arts had functional worth. It can be objectively useful to other martial arts. So theoretically you should be able to walk in to a karate school and add some value to that school. Because your school should have some value.
And that definitely helps in discussions like this where we have multiple martial artists discussing stuff.
drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
If that is the case.
Then you can't be doing it wrong. And you and Chris have jumped up and down about people doing it wrong.
There are courses for crystal healing. You can be certified in it. You can be an expert in it.
But who cares. You aren't healing people
(Seriously. A real thing.)
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Earlier, I said that a defining trait of traditional/classical styles is that they look back and prioritize fidelity over everything else. You clearly value the tradition and historical legacy of the arts in which you train. I can see that.
Within your community—where your organization has established clear standards—you see a full range of schools and students, some stronger than others. And in that environment, lineage understandably carries real meaning. I completely see the value in that.
When I mentioned earlier that lineage can be irrelevant, I meant specifically in the context of instructional quality and what students actually learn. As you pointed out, there are schools whose demonstrations clearly show weaker training. Yet those same schools likely came from strong lineage at some point. It highlights how even a respected tradition can be disrupted if an instructor isn’t able to maintain the same level of quality. And that’s within a culture that genuinely prioritizes historical accuracy and fidelity.
When we shift to practical skills—whether we call it fighting, self‑defense, or something similar—the relevance of lineage becomes secondary to what students can actually do. In the end, it’s the student’s own abilities that matter most. No matter how skilled an instructor may be, their expertise can’t step in for you in the moment you need to rely on what you’ve learned.
This makes sense, too. So, here's where I think things went a little squirrelly. Your training clearly comes from a long, respected tradition, and it’s obvious you place real value on preserving the techniques and spirit of your lineage. All good, and you obviously take it very seriously. Frankly, it also sounds like a lot of fun.
The issues start to arise when folks who train in the same manner you train, and within this same culture, start to teach others things they don't have a lot of experience with. Self defense is the big one, where they begin to market themselves as "self defense experts" and take money from people who believe that they are learning skills that will keep them safe in a fight. To use Chris Parker's analogy from earlier, they're teaching people to pilot a plane having never piloted one themselves.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Eh, I took it as self-awareness. Not everyone trains in a martial art to learn to fight. It's not a problem if it's above board and they're not being sold snake oil (or crystals).
Wing Woo Gar82 5
Grandmaster
Wing Woo Gar82 5
Grandmaster
Commentary by people who don’t even train in martial arts is subjectively entertaining to me. You know who you are. Maybe start by talking about what the training you do personally before trashing someone else’s. That would go a long way towards a “friendly” exchange.
- Moderator
- #312
The idea presented in the linked article is not really accurate. Rather, it's regurgitation of marketing copy from one particular branch of the Gracie family.
A quick summary of the history behind the terms GJJ vs BJJ is roughly as follows:
Originally the art now known as BJJ was simply known in Brazil as "Jiu-jitsu" or "Gracie Jiu-jitsu" (since most lines of BJJ come from the Gracie family, excepting only the Luiz França/Oswaldo Fadda lineage).
When Rorion Gracie came to the U.S. with his father and brothers, he trademarked the name "Gracie Jiujitsu" and threatened legal action against other members of the family who used that name. For that reason, the rest of the community ended up adopting the generic name "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu" for the art as a whole, and more specific name branding (like "Renzo Gracie Jiujitsu") for individual schools.
Eventually Rorion's trademark was invalidated in a lawsuit where Carley Gracie proved that he had been using the "Gracie Jiujitsu" name in the U.S. for years before Rorion arrived. However, by this time the community as a whole had pretty much settled on "BJJ" and so "GJJ" continued to be mostly used by first Rorion and then his sons Rener and Ryron and instructors associated with their association.
BJJ traditionally consisted of 3 interrelated components - pure grappling, "self-defense" (i.e. techniques designed for use against typical untrained attackers), and Vale Tudo (what eventually became MMA, tactics designed for use in fights against trained fighters and martial artists). With the worldwide growth of BJJ, the pure sportive grappling aspect became the most popular and many schools have specialized in that aspect at the expense of the other two. New techniques and tactics proliferated, many of which are not directly applicable to a real fight with strikes included. However it should be noted that the sport grappling aspect has always (since the very beginning) included techniques which are not directly applicable to a real fight with strikes included and also that some of the new innovations can be applicable to a real fight with strikes included.
Helio, Rorion, and Rener Gracie have always been masters of marketing. As BJJ spread, their particular branch of the family was no longer dominant either in sport grappling or MMA. So they pivoted their sales pitch. In their telling, Gracie Jiujitsu (by which they meant their academy (Gracie Academy) and their associates - a small branch of a large family - was the true preservation of the original art created by Helio Gracie. Both modern sport BJJ and modern MMA had moved away from the realities of fighting and GJJ stuck with the original combative application.
All of this is at best exaggeration and spin worthy of a used car salesman. Helio Gracie did not create GJJ or BJJ. He was one of a number of important early innovators and instructors, but he absolutely was not the sole creator of the system. Every other branch of the art has a lineage just as valid as the Gracie Academy. Other academies that don't use the GJJ moniker do teach the full combative application of the art. And for that matter, the Gracie Academy does teach the pure sportive aspects of the art.
What is true is this - schools using the GJJ name do typically cover at least the fundamentals of combative application before delving into pure sportive applications and many other schools either start with sportive application or even teach exclusively sport application at the expense of combative use. But that's just a generalization. For example, my gym uses the BJJ name and my rank comes through the Carlson Gracie lineage, but I teach combative application from day one and I prioritize that over pure sport application.
windwalker099147 178
Master of Arts
Depends on how one defines “functional,” what one is looking for that makes something so.
One could argue that martial arts are no longer widely valued for the same functionality they originally had. The social and cultural context has changed.
In today’s Western environment, many schools operate as businesses. Lineage and cultural authenticity can carry measurable value within that context, depending on what students are seeking.
Traditional arts remain “traditional” because they seek to embody and transmit practices of the past — there are people who value that continuity, even if the criteria for modern functional testing differ.
Functional worth and cultural worth are not always measured by the same standards.
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drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
That still has an objective and an outcome.
I think there is a culture of martial arts that disguises those two concepts.
drop bear146 22
Sr. Grandmaster
We will see how we go. I am going to suggest it will become an ever shifting goal post.
But evidence will determine that either way.,
Social media these days is a cesspool for that. Lots of MMA bros trashing every MA out there. I even saw a thread of guys going after Mr. Parker which is just disrespectful. I wonder how many of these guys actually train in some form. My guess is a lot just like to watch videos.
HighKick
Senior Master
All I read was 'social media is a cesspool' and clicked agree.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You guys understand that this forum is social media, right?
Wing Woo Gar82 5
Grandmaster
I may have “gone after” Mr Parker myself. No offense to you personally, but I am not a fan of the man and never have been.
isshinryuronin37 37
Senior Master
I was not a fan of Ed Parker the person. Ed Parker the martial artist deserved respect.
