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mastercole

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It seems more logical to me to get technical unification first and then go from there. Thats the way most successful business models work. Set standards, make sure standards are adhered to and then grow the business/org. The theory of just monopolise a service, then worry about standards seems quite backward from a business perspective. As a potential kkw convert I would rather see the complete business model, the standards, the degree to which standards are enforced, THEN I can make an informed decision regarding the organisation. Then again, Im australian and am probably too backward to understand doing it the other way around :)

If you are marketing cell phones, then yes. But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth. So what they are doing, is working. Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.
 

puunui

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Please don't misunderstand me, my thoughts were that I think it's a good thing for all Taekwondo to come under one umbrella. For me, I'd like to still practice the Chang Hon tul, but if I was to fight in competition, I'd do it under the WTF rule set because it's full contact, and I can't stand 'semi-contact' sparring. Taekwondo is so broken in the UK with regards to the ITF it's ridiculous, but you look at our Kukkiwon schools and they're churning out champions like Aaron Cook, Sarah Stevenson, and a hopeful future champion Jade Jones. If the ITF came under the Kukkiwon, with the freedom to still practice the way they do, but with full contact sparring, i can't see that as anything other than positive :)

That is how it usually starts, an interest in olympic style competition. Many ITF converts have done very successfully in WTF competition. GM John Holloway from the US was a bronze medalist at the first ITF World Championships, and then became a multi time medalist at the WTF World Championships. In fact, many in the USTU had ITF backgrounds, including one president, GM Holloway's instructor, Dr. YANG Dong Ja.

The ITF instructors that we helped here back in the 90s, they still have a fondness for the ITF forms, which frankly I never understood. But they teach the taeguek and yudanja poomsae to their students, but still practice their itf forms on their own. Welcome to the family. :)

In Hawaii, we have this concept called ohana, which means family or extended family. Some strict constructionists say that ohana means only blood family, but most people here apply it to the extended family. People welcome you into their homes and make you feel part of the family. I believe that this concept extends beyond Hawaii and is also part of Korean culture as well.

But I also realize that many come from dysfunctional family situations, which may also extend towards their martial arts teachers. They were abused, or mistreated, in their homes or in their martial arts schools, at least in their minds, and now they project that to everything and everyone. As a fellow martial artist, I don't think I or anyone else can do much for these types of practitioners, who harbor hatred and resentment and anger toward their teachers, or their art, or those that created their art. I think that type of attitude, the smoldering negativity that is just waiting to be released like a volcanic explosion, tends to affect their entire martial arts experience. Luckily, that type of negativity is not as contagious as it once was. That type of phenomenon ran its course over the last ten years. But there are a few who still carry the chaotic banner of death and destruction for anything kukkiwon, wtf, or usat related. Those people, we cannot help. Today, people look at that type of irrational hate filled, ranting and raving and go "Whoa, that's not where I want to be."

But luckily for every person like that, it has been my experience that there are a hundred more out there who are sincere, who do wish to be a part of kukki taekwondo. For those, there is many things we can do to assist them. UK is a different animal, it has its own issues going on, but if you need help with Kukkiwon certification, I have a couple few friends there who can assist you.
 

ralphmcpherson

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If you are marketing cell phones, then yes. But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth. So what they are doing, is working. Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.

I suppose thats where our views differ. If I was a GM with a very large well established club that had been around running successfully for many years, I would be hesitant to join an org who does not have clearly defined technical unification between all its member clubs otherwise it could undermine all my hard work in establishing my club. In my area, for instance, the kukkiwon has a bad name and almost all clubs are independent because of this. If my GM suddenly became a kukkiwon club people would leave in droves and go up the road and join another club. If every single kukkiwon club held the same standards a school owner could make a better informed decision on whether to join up.
 

puunui

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If you are marketing cell phones, then yes. But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth. So what they are doing, is working. Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.


Exactly. People say they don't like this or that or don't want to do this or that today, only to discover that they do want this or that later in life. I told this story before. We took a tour to korea a couple of years ago, miguksaram was there. On the trip was a senior american taekwondoin who had a dojang 7th dan and kukkiwon 2nd dan. We went to the kukkiwon, the muju park, and the wtf secretary general drove four hours from seoul to give us all wtf citations that we didn't ask for. During this trip, the dojang 7th dan looked very sad and realized that all the negative propaganda that he had been led to believe for thirty years about the kukkiwon and wtf was false and that he very much regretted not getting his kukkiwon rank when he had the chance. I thought he was going to cry. He is a good guy too. Oh well, another lost soul out there swinging in the wind, all because he listened to the wrong people.

One thing I learned from my teachers and also the pioneers is that people adapt and change. They have this hope and positive attitude that things will work out, given enough time, and that we will succeed, so keep pressing on. Way back when, one of my teachers had heard from someone about all the "bad" things that I was doing. The next time I saw my teacher, he smiled and said I was doing a good job, because if those complacent, always negative people were getting mad, then that means I must be doing a good job. But then again, that's the thing about level three teachers, they don't think like level one types, and frankly, neither did you or I.
 

RobinTKD

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That is how it usually starts, an interest in olympic style competition. Many ITF converts have done very successfully in WTF competition. GM John Holloway from the US was a bronze medalist at the first ITF World Championships, and then became a multi time medalist at the WTF World Championships. In fact, many in the USTU had ITF backgrounds, including one president, GM Holloway's instructor, Dr. YANG Dong Ja.

The ITF instructors that we helped here back in the 90s, they still have a fondness for the ITF forms, which frankly I never understood. But they teach the taeguek and yudanja poomsae to their students, but still practice their itf forms on their own. Welcome to the family. :)

In Hawaii, we have this concept called ohana, which means family or extended family. Some strict constructionists say that ohana means only blood family, but most people here apply it to the extended family. People welcome you into their homes and make you feel part of the family. I believe that this concept extends beyond Hawaii and is also part of Korean culture as well.

But I also realize that many come from dysfunctional family situations, which may also extend towards their martial arts teachers. They were abused, or mistreated, in their homes or in their martial arts schools, at least in their minds, and now they project that to everything and everyone. As a fellow martial artist, I don't think I or anyone else can do much for these types of practitioners, who harbor hatred and resentment and anger toward their teachers, or their art, or those that created their art. I think that type of attitude, the smoldering negativity that is just waiting to be released like a volcanic explosion, tends to affect their entire martial arts experience. Luckily, that type of negativity is not as contagious as it once was. That type of phenomenon ran its course over the last ten years. But there are a few who still carry the chaotic banner of death and destruction for anything kukkiwon, wtf, or usat related. Those people, we cannot help. Today, people look at that type of irrational hate filled, ranting and raving and go "Whoa, that's not where I want to be."

But luckily for every person like that, it has been my experience that there are a hundred more out there who are sincere, who do wish to be a part of kukki taekwondo. For those, there is many things we can do to assist them. UK is a different animal, it has its own issues going on, but if you need help with Kukkiwon certification, I have a couple few friends there who can assist you.

Thank you for that Glenn, I'm sure that I will take you up on that offer in the future :)
 

Kong Soo Do

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If you are marketing cell phones, then yes. But Kukkiwon and WTF have already proved this point, with their massive growth. So what they are doing, is working.

This is circular reasoning, therefore it is illogical. They have growth because individuals are allowing people in without regard to any standard of training or demonstrated loyalty to the organization. Therefore technical standards don't exist and this supposed stage 3 can and will never be reached. They've put the cart before the horse and its trying to be justified after the fact.

Look at all the mutant so-called martial arts mish-mash groups who demand adherence to some grandpooba's greatly flawed technical standard, they ended up in nowheresville.

You keep mentioning these people, but when asked who they are you refuse to answer. What is a mish-mash group? Who is the grand pooba? How do you judge that their technical standards are flawed? What is your first hand experience with these people and their training? Please provide something to back up what you're saying. Thank you.
 

RobinTKD

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I suppose thats where our views differ. If I was a GM with a very large well established club that had been around running successfully for many years, I would be hesitant to join an org who does not have clearly defined technical unification between all its member clubs otherwise it could undermine all my hard work in establishing my club. In my area, for instance, the kukkiwon has a bad name and almost all clubs are independent because of this. If my GM suddenly became a kukkiwon club people would leave in droves and go up the road and join another club. If every single kukkiwon club held the same standards a school owner could make a better informed decision on whether to join up.


Just my 2 pence, that isn't just a problem with KKW schools, it's also a problem with ITF schools, in fact, it's a problem in most martial arts! We've had long discussions in other threads about what makes a good school, or how to spot a good school, one of the conclusions we came to was just to try it out and see what you think, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
 

ralphmcpherson

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Just my 2 pence, that isn't just a problem with KKW schools, it's also a problem with ITF schools, in fact, it's a problem in most martial arts! We've had long discussions in other threads about what makes a good school, or how to spot a good school, one of the conclusions we came to was just to try it out and see what you think, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
I couldn't agree more.
 

ralphmcpherson

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This is circular reasoning, therefore it is illogical. They have growth because individuals are allowing people in without regard to any standard of training or demonstrated loyalty to the organization. Therefore technical standards don't exist and this supposed stage 3 can and will never be reached. They've put the cart before the horse and its trying to be justified after the fact.



You keep mentioning these people, but when asked who they are you refuse to answer. What is a mish-mash group? Who is the grand pooba? How do you judge that their technical standards are flawed? What is your first hand experience with these people and their training? Please provide something to back up what you're saying. Thank you.
we've been down this road before. I think you will find the "propoganda" fed to many (not all) students is a "mish mash" group is a tkd club not affiliated with the kukkiwon. A "grand poo bah" is a GM of a club that is not kukkiwon affiliated. Basically the kukkiwon have well respected GM's and independents have grand poo bahs. The irony is that where we train we have a set standard that all instructors must adhere to and they are regularly checked to see the are doing the right thing. Our grading requirements are set, as is our curriculum and yet we are a mish mash group. My GM with 65 years training and thousands of black belts trained to a very high standad is a grand poo bah. Go figure:)
 

mastercole

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I suppose thats where our views differ. If I was a GM with a very large well established club that had been around running successfully for many years, I would be hesitant to join an org who does not have clearly defined technical unification between all its member clubs otherwise it could undermine all my hard work in establishing my club. In my area, for instance, the kukkiwon has a bad name and almost all clubs are independent because of this. If my GM suddenly became a kukkiwon club people would leave in droves and go up the road and join another club. If every single kukkiwon club held the same standards a school owner could make a better informed decision on whether to join up.

We were talking about the success of the Kukkiwon and the WTF. So I was thinking global, not local. Your local situation is obviously not and example of what has happened globally.
 

ralphmcpherson

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We were talking about the success of the Kukkiwon and the WTF. So I was thinking global, not local. Your local situation is obviously not and example of what has happened globally.
So outside of my area are there no good independent clubs? Or are only 'some' clubs of these clubs run by grand poo bahs? Because if this is the case, couldnt the exact same thing be said of 'some' kukkiwon clubs? I can tell you now that if you looked up grand poo bah in the dictionary there would be a photo of the GM at our local kukkiwon club, he epitomises everything that image conjurs up. As has been said in the past, popularty does not necessarilly equal quality. Mcdonalds is popular, but does that mean they are a quality restaurant. Im sorry, but the theory of "because the kukkiwon is signing up heaps of members therefore they must be good" just doesnt wash with me. I think the kukkiwon curriculum is excellent, I really do, and I know many many good kukkiwon black belts, BUT I also know many many sub par kukkiwon blackbelts and mcdojos that are kukkiwon. I just dont understand (in any business) having standards if no one goes around to check clubs are adhering to them.
 

mastercole

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we've been down this road before. I think you will find the "propoganda" fed to many (not all) students is a "mish mash" group is a tkd club not affiliated with the kukkiwon. A "grand poo bah" is a GM of a club that is not kukkiwon affiliated. Basically the kukkiwon have well respected GM's and independents have grand poo bahs. The irony is that where we train we have a set standard that all instructors must adhere to and they are regularly checked to see the are doing the right thing. Our grading requirements are set, as is our curriculum and yet we are a mish mash group. My GM with 65 years training and thousands of black belts trained to a very high standad is a grand poo bah. Go figure:)

Ralph I am sorry that you feel your school fits in the grandpooba scheme of things. I would have never considered it as such, based on what you have written.
 

mastercole

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So outside of my area are there no good independent clubs? Or are only 'some' clubs of these clubs run by grand poo bahs? Because if this is the case, couldnt the exact same thing be said of 'some' kukkiwon clubs? I can tell you now that if you looked up grand poo bah in the dictionary there would be a photo of the GM at our local kukkiwon club, he epitomises everything that image conjurs up.

From my experience I've have seen both, but way more poobahs in one. How many schools, Kukkiwon affiliated and no-affiliated have you trained with inside, or outside of your area? Have you trained with people from hundreds of schools, from Australia? How about people from hundreds of schools from around the world?
 

ralphmcpherson

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Just as an aside mastercole, I am really enjoying this thread and the ongoing debate. I am grateful that you can discuss this in a good manner. Its very interesting and enlightening to be able to discuss this subject without either party being offended or lowering themselves to cheap shots. I enjoy this topic but its hard to find people to discuss it with who keep it 'friendly'. The last time we had this debate it ended with someone (no prizes for guessing who) declaring that "to them I am dead" or some other karate kid line. Again, thank you.
 

ralphmcpherson

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From my experience I've have seen both, but way more poobahs in one. How many schools, Kukkiwon affiliated and no-affiliated have you trained with inside, or outside of your area? Have you trained with people from hundreds of schools, from Australia? How about people from hundreds of schools from around the world?
I have trained with many people from australia but only a handful from outside this country. I train at a club that attracts a lot of ex kkw guys who are looking to get away from the 'sport' side of things. They have spoken to me at length about all the good and bad things they found training at kukkiwon clubs.I have two close friends who are kukkiwon black belts and we train together regularly. My neighbour is a korean who is a kukkiwon black belt, and I have some friends who are ITF and WTF from europe who now live over here. So basically my knowledge is limited, but as Ive said I find the kukkiwon curriculum (when taught properly) to be a good curriculum and I hope one day the powers that be can see to it that all kukkiwon clubs world wide have the same standards and systems are put in place to make sure these are adhered to.
 

mastercole

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I have trained with many people from australia but only a handful from outside this country. I train at a club that attracts a lot of ex kkw guys who are looking to get away from the 'sport' side of things. They have spoken to me at length about all the good and bad things they found training at kukkiwon clubs.I have two close friends who are kukkiwon black belts and we train together regularly. My neighbour is a korean who is a kukkiwon black belt, and I have some friends who are ITF and WTF from europe who now live over here. So basically my knowledge is limited, but as Ive said I find the kukkiwon curriculum (when taught properly) to be a good curriculum and I hope one day the powers that be can see to it that all kukkiwon clubs world wide have the same standards and systems are put in place to make sure these are adhered to.

That is your experience and I understand it. To me when someone says I trained with "a lot" of ex Kukkiwon guys, I think in the hundreds, maybe the thousands, but I really don't think this is the case.
 

ralphmcpherson

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That is your experience and I understand it. To me when someone says I trained with "a lot" of ex Kukkiwon guys, I think in the hundreds, maybe the thousands, but I really don't think this is the case.
Im curious, I constantly hear on martial talk about the huge number of mcdojos in America (particularly in the general martial arts section) and it appears that the vast majority of them are tkd clubs, which is understandable considering tkd is by far the most popular art so obviously there are more tkd clubs and thus they make up a large % of mcdojos. From your experience what % of these mcdojos are "technically" kkw clubs? Even if only a small %, say 500 clubs across the country, does it bother you that these clubs give your org a bad name? We had a club in our org once that was becoming a bit mcdojoish and it was very quickly handed to another instructor to sort the problem. Id love the day to come where the kukkiwon can do the same.
 

mastercole

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Im curious, I constantly hear on martial talk about the huge number of mcdojos in America (particularly in the general martial arts section) and it appears that the vast majority of them are tkd clubs, which is understandable considering tkd is by far the most popular art so obviously there are more tkd clubs and thus they make up a large % of mcdojos. From your experience what % of these mcdojos are "technically" kkw clubs? Even if only a small %, say 500 clubs across the country, does it bother you that these clubs give your org a bad name? We had a club in our org once that was becoming a bit mcdojoish and it was very quickly handed to another instructor to sort the problem. Id love the day to come where the kukkiwon can do the same.

It's not style specific. Example in my market area I am the only Kukkiwon style school and we compete with about 20 schools. Three of those schools are ATA, and the rest are a spin off Kenpo and Karate, and one Kungfu school. The one Karate school that I considered to have good quality black belts closed.

In the USA Commercial schools are for profit schools, whether or not the instructors have true knowledge and ability to teach that knowledge does not matter to the greater population in their market. They are usually beautiful schools with all kinds of planed out events that keep the kids begging to go back and have fun. The school might have instructors with knowledge, or no knowledge, but it does not matter because these customers are not there for true knowledge and learning. The learning is simple rote and it's designed to be easy to remember and repeat and deceives the students, and ESPECIALLY the parents. These schools draw the masses. I would guess this is generally what you mean by mcdojo. I do not like that this has become the most popular school type in the USA. But it's like many other things in the USA that I call the "dumbing down" of America. But this is not all commercial schools.

Commercial schools that do not at least partially follow this model of fun and events, etc, will not ever attract the masses, no matter how good the quality of martial arts provided. These schools struggle and eventually go out of business. If the instructors had true knowledge, no one will ever have a chance to learn it. A mistake on the owners part.

I think the best model, at least for me, is a school that on the surface appears to be at least part mcdojo because that is what the masses like. The curriculum has to be at least a % of fun, easy to remember stuff which tricks them into focusing on the real skills which would be the majority of most classes. You have to watch class close, when it looks like you have pushed people to their limit, it's dodgeball time for 5 minutes, water break, then change the subject to something else important, so if feels new and push them again. That group can build up to be quite large. And if you are keeping on them about good skills, eventually, over time, and maybe many years of time, some will come around and want to dig deeper. It's either do it this way, or let them go down the street where it is all play and they will never come around to learn anything at all about martial arts.

That said, we are always looking at the whole class to see who is serious, hard working and has potential to be a good student. Once those folks are identified, they are taken aside and invited to off hours training that contains zero fluff, starts out at 2 hours per day with the goal of reaching 6 hours per day. There is no cost for that off hours training. That said, once students reach 3rd Dan in our school, classes are tuition free. All Dan promotion fees are also instantly credited back to students who continue on to the next Dan up to 3rd. However, students who train with intensity in the off hours training get to tuition free much earlier.

So no, I don't like the mcdojo thing, but in order to survive you have to use some of their marketing and motivation ideas, but as I said above good instructors with good knowledge and skill will pull from that crowd those with excellent potential. It's two schools in one.
 
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