Certification

puunui

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I think the idea is a little bit foreign to martial artists that study other arts. Take for example the various karate styles, even those that came from common (relatively) ancestry such as Seidokan Shorin-ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. They have different syllabi, perhaps with more shared than not, but there's sufficient differences as well as an overall VOLUME of material that it makes the idea of a small federated subset of learning such as the KKW requirement, to be odd in conception to people who used to the other way of doing things.

I think now things are easier, with the vast information available on the internet, but back in the day, it certainly was not easy or simple to learn taekwondo, particularly taekwondo sparring. Back in the day, no one shared what they knew and if someone knew something, they kept it to themselves. It was incredibly difficult to gain any sort of conceptual information on what to do and how to do it, much less what fit where. It took a very long time to understand conceptually what kyorugi is about. It is certainly not something that can be learned overnight. That is just one small example of something within kukki taekwondo that looks easy, but in reality is not. It is a relatively simple matter to access the relative skill of a practitioner, in a minute of sparring at a test for example. If someone doesn't understand the modern training methods and modern sparring methods, it will be glaringly apparent in that minute.
 

miguksaram

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I think the idea is a little bit foreign to martial artists that study other arts. Take for example the various karate styles, even those that came from common (relatively) ancestry such as Seidokan Shorin-ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. They have different syllabi, perhaps with more shared than not, but there's sufficient differences as well as an overall VOLUME of material that it makes the idea of a small federated subset of learning such as the KKW requirement, to be odd in conception to people who used to the other way of doing things.
I see this in Shotokan and even Shorei/Shuri ryu as well. This is what I like the KKW. A set minimum standards are given. I go to one KKW school in Illinois or another KKW school in Kazakhstan, I will be able to step in and do what they do to in terms of KKW standards. There is, or at least in theory, no deviation from those standards (Note: I say theory only because some schools may or may not have kept up with most recent standards of KKW though even those have not varied much in the past years).

If you go and watch Seipai or Seiunchin performed by 3 different karate schools (none of them under JKA standards), you could see three different variations of the forms. Not that it is a bad thing, just makes it a bit more difficult for people who might be traveling from one school into another school and have to adapt to different standards of the same form.

I make no value judgement on the KKW's 'sparse' way of doing requirements. I can see pluses and minuses either way, depending on what one considers important.
Exactly. It just depends on what feels right for you.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive.
Having trained in a break-away kendo school and now teaching for myself, I can tell everyone reading this thread the value of having the large organizational cert from the perspective of having trained under a sensei who did not issue to his students the certificates that he was issued.

I am in the process of becoming part of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and am thoroughly enjoying it. However, I have spent over eight years in kendo and have students to whom I can only issue in house certificates as a result of my sensei having broken off to be an independent.

All that I can contribute to this discussion is that school owners who do not issue the certificates that they were issued and bring their own students up to high dan grades are, in my opinion, doing their students a grave disservice.

I say that with no ill will towards independents or any judgement on the training at such schools.
 

ralphmcpherson

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I see this in Shotokan and even Shorei/Shuri ryu as well. This is what I like the KKW. A set minimum standards are given. I go to one KKW school in Illinois or another KKW school in Kazakhstan, I will be able to step in and do what they do to in terms of KKW standards. There is, or at least in theory, no deviation from those standards (Note: I say theory only because some schools may or may not have kept up with most recent standards of KKW though even those have not varied much in the past years).

If you go and watch Seipai or Seiunchin performed by 3 different karate schools (none of them under JKA standards), you could see three different variations of the forms. Not that it is a bad thing, just makes it a bit more difficult for people who might be traveling from one school into another school and have to adapt to different standards of the same form.


Exactly. It just depends on what feels right for you.
This is whre Im getting a little confused. You give the example of someone training in Ilinois and moving to khazakstan and still knowing the basic requirements. I have stated here several times that our school doesnt teach kkw curriculum and I constantly get told "it doesnt matter, if your GM is kukkiwon certified he owes it to his students to get the same for them", despite the fact that he doesnt teach current kkw curriculum. So what happens when my GM gets me a kukkiwon certificate, I up and move to khazakstan and on my first night in class they are revising the taegek forms and I have absolutely no idea what Im doing, despite wearing a black belt. Im genuinely curious as to how this works, on one hand Im told it will make my rank transferable and I can move to a different place, find a kukkiwon club and know their standards but then on the other hand Im told my GM should get me a kkw cert despite the fact he doesnt teach these standards. Im confused.
 

ralphmcpherson

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Having trained in a break-away kendo school and now teaching for myself, I can tell everyone reading this thread the value of having the large organizational cert from the perspective of having trained under a sensei who did not issue to his students the certificates that he was issued.

I am in the process of becoming part of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and am thoroughly enjoying it. However, I have spent over eight years in kendo and have students to whom I can only issue in house certificates as a result of my sensei having broken off to be an independent.

All that I can contribute to this discussion is that school owners who do not issue the certificates that they were issued and bring their own students up to high dan grades are, in my opinion, doing their students a grave disservice.

I say that with no ill will towards independents or any judgement on the training at such schools.
Daniel, you say- "All that I can contribute to this discussion is that school owners who do not issue the certificates that they were issued and bring their own students up to high dan grades are, in my opinion, doing their students a grave disservice". My question is, what if they no longer teach that curriculum? By handing out kkw certs if they dont teach the kukkiwon standards are they not doing a grave disservice to the kukkiwon by giving unqualified students a certification for something they dont know? As Ive said in previous posts, I have nothing against the kukkiwon, Im just struggling to grasp how this all works. I am in complete agreeance that if someone has kukkiwon certification and teaches the kukkiwon curriculum then they owe it to their students to pass on the same accreditation that they have. But, what if they dont teach kkw stuff, are you saying they should just hand out the cert anyway, despite the fact they know full well their students dont know the kkw stuff? If I was a kukkiwon student/teacher I would hope there arent people giving out kkw certs without teaching the material.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Daniel, you say-
All that I can contribute to this discussion is that school owners who do not issue the certificates that they were issued and bring their own students up to high dan grades are, in my opinion, doing their students a grave disservice.
My question is, what if they no longer teach that curriculum? By handing out kkw certs if they dont teach the kukkiwon standards are they not doing a grave disservice to the kukkiwon by giving unqualified students a certification for something they dont know? As Ive said in previous posts, I have nothing against the kukkiwon, Im just struggling to grasp how this all works.
I believe that Glenn has addressed this several times in this thread. Assuming that he/she is still calling what they teach taekwondo, then given that the Kukkiwon does not actually dictate what you teach, then if he/she is KKW certified at fourth dan or above, then they should do their students the courtesy of issuing a KKW first dan when the students test for first dan.

And I am speaking of students testing for their first dan in a dojang, not simply having it handed to them.

I am in complete agreeance that if someone has kukkiwon certification and teaches the kukkiwon curriculum then they owe it to their students to pass on the same accreditation that they have. But, what if they dont teach kkw stuff, are you saying they should just hand out the cert anyway, despite the fact they know full well their students dont know the kkw stuff? If I was a kukkiwon student/teacher I would hope there arent people giving out kkw certs without teaching the material.
Assuming that they still call their art taekwondo, what part of the Kukkiwon curriculum are they no longer teaching?

Did they stop teaching kicks, punches, parries, blocks, stances? Some? All? Or are they simply teaching a different set of forms and maybe sparring under a different rule set?

I'm willing to bet that they're still teaching kicks, punches, parries, blocks, and stances.

If they are no longer teaching taekwondo, then they should issue the same certification that they hold in whatever art they do teach. If they hold no grades in this other art, whatever it may be, then I question what qualifications they have to teach it.

If he/she is teaching a recalibrated version of taekwondo AND holds KKW rank of fourth dan or higher, then there is no reason not to issue the grade. Especially if they are billing their students for a first dan grading.

If the gradings are free, then he/she can do whatever they feel like. My gradings in both hapkido and kendo were not free. But they are dojo dans because my former sensei decided to break off and start his own organizations. I have no criticism of him wanting to be an independent, but really, he should have gone through the proper channels with regards to grading.

He could issue IHF certificates to his students but chooses not to. Kendo would require that he have students graded for ikyu and above with FIK representatives on hand, as all ikyu (first kyu) and above gradings are organizational gradings.

I have no regrets about training with him and have no ill feelings towards him. I also know that there were other people influencing his decisions in these areas. Frankly, they did him a disservice.

For the vast majority of his students, it is not much of an issue. But as the only one of his students who has gone on to establish his own studio, the independent kendo grade is problematic.
 

ralphmcpherson

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I believe that Glenn has addressed this several times in this thread. Assuming that he/she is still calling what they teach taekwondo, then given that the Kukkiwon does not actually dictate what you teach, then if he/she is KKW certified at fourth dan or above, then they should do their students the courtesy of issuing a KKW first dan when the students test for first dan.

And I am speaking of students testing for their first dan in a dojang, not simply having it handed to them.


Assuming that they still call their art taekwondo, what part of the Kukkiwon curriculum are they no longer teaching?

Did they stop teaching kicks, punches, parries, blocks, stances? Some? All? Or are they simply teaching a different set of forms and maybe sparring under a different rule set?

I'm willing to bet that they're still teaching kicks, punches, parries, blocks, and stances.

If they are no longer teaching taekwondo, then they should issue the same certification that they hold in whatever art they do teach. If they hold no grades in this other art, whatever it may be, then I question what qualifications they have to teach it.

If he/she is teaching a recalibrated version of taekwondo AND holds KKW rank of fourth dan or higher, then there is no reason not to issue the grade. Especially if they are billing their students for a first dan grading.

If the gradings are free, then he/she can do whatever they feel like. My gradings in both hapkido and kendo were not free. But they are dojo dans because my former sensei decided to break off and start his own organizations. I have no criticism of him wanting to be an independent, but really, he should have gone through the proper channels with regards to grading.

He could issue IHF certificates to his students but chooses not to. Kendo would require that he have students graded for ikyu and above with FIK representatives on hand, as all ikyu (first kyu) and above gradings are organizational gradings.

I have no regrets about training with him and have no ill feelings towards him. I also know that there were other people influencing his decisions in these areas. Frankly, they did him a disservice.

For the vast majority of his students, it is not much of an issue. But as the only one of his students who has gone on to establish his own studio, the independent kendo grade is problematic.
Well lets, for arguments sake, say they do different forms and spar under a different rulest. They are two pretty major differences. I cant speak on behalf of other clubs but both form and sparring make up a big part of the curriculum where I train, so I would think that they are big enough changes to warrant a different certification, but thats just my opinion. Basically, you are saying any school with the word "tkd" in their name owes it to their students to join the kukkiwon, which I just cant agree with. Shotokan and wing chun schools teach kicks, punches and parries, so should they too, give out kkw certification? For instance, you only have to watch a video of itf traing opposed to kukkiwon training and you see heaps of differences, but both are still "tkd".I actually think the forms an art uses and the way they spar is what distinguishes one art from another. I mean, almost all arts contain kicks, punches, parries, blocks and stances. At the bare minimum, I would think that to join an org you should at least be able to do their forms, but thats just my opinion because I would feel pretty silly waltzing into my local kkw dojang, showing them my kkw certificate, putting on my black belt and then have the instructor say "Hey Ralph, can you just take these two yellow belts down the back and teach them the second taegek and I have to reply "sorry, but I dont know any of the taegeks", then later in the class they line us up for sparring and I have to polietly ask the instructor "excuse me, can you explain the wtf sparring rules to me, I dont actually know them". What value is my cert?
 
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puunui

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I believe that Glenn has addressed this several times in this thread.

I have explained it numerous times. If they don't understand at this point, they never will, mainly because they do not want to understand.
 

ralphmcpherson

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I have explained it numerous times. If they don't understand at this point, they never will, mainly because they do not want to understand.
If I didnt want to understand I wouldnt keep asking the question. Perhaps if you answered the questions myself and others are asking rather than talking round in circles we would understand.
 
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