Certification

[mastercole]

I too, was under this impression but have since been told 'it doesnt matter' that I dont know any of the curriculum. I think the policy is just sign up anyone to the kukkiwon and worry about the fact they have no idea about the curriculum later. I constantly hear about the advantages of the kukkiwon being that its standardised, yet you make the point that you cant be kukkiwon because you dont know their forms, and then the official member of the 'kukkiwon sign up commitee' jumps on and says you can join despite not knowing their curriculum. Standards? what standards? Ive made several points regarding this (note the plumber analogy), but these points are ignored and brushed over as if they were never posted because it proves just how ridiculous some of the 'theories' actually are. The usual suspects on here contantly tell me my GM should be handing out kukkiwon certs despite the fact we dont do the kukkiwon curriculum. Just sign us up and sweep the fact we dont know any kukkiwon stuff under the carpet it seems. Although, we have 4000 students and if they were all paying money to the kukkiwon for our certificates I could start to see why it is important to them for us to join. $$$$$

I never said he should.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I never said he should.

My apologies mastercole, my post was in no way aimed at you.

 

[puunui]

Yes we did, and I certainly understand your view, and I agree with it, 100%. I also think in these matters you have greater patience that I do, and in these ways you are more flexible as well. That is why it's an area I should stay out of

When it comes to Kukkiwon certification, there are all kinds of people, especially those who do not have kukkiwon certification. At the extreme end of the spectrum, there are those who do not have it, and say they do not want it, and then proceed to criticize the kukkiwon and others regarding kukkiwon certification. For those, we can't do much for, except let them continue to howl at the moon.

I am more interested in speaking with and helping those who desire kukkiwon certification, but find that they are unable to obtain it. that is the group we are trying to reach. I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life, less nowdays because people are reaching instructor level ranks and can process on their own now. We want people to be independent and free, which is what kukkiwon certification does for them. They are happy when they can promote their own students through an organization that will not disappear when their instructor passes away or retires and they can also continue to get promoted themselves through that same organization.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Okay, I've got to chime in here as there are some things that don't add up. No offense intended to any party, but things need to be examined in light of what the OP has asked, and what has been offered thus far in this thread.

Would it be of value for Master Rush, or anyone that doesn't have a KKW certification, to obtain one? As many have pointed out so far, they don't follow (or wish to follow) the KKW curriculum. What they are doing has met their needs. And apparently, what they/we have done exceeds the standards of the KKW certification (at least in most cases). The reason is simply that there are often NO standards to obtain KKW certification.

I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life,

It is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their political affiliation or the technical guidelines that they follow.

We operated under this policy here in hawaii back in the early 90s when our state association was being revived. Back then, the only person who was issuing kukkiwon certification was me, the reason being that the seniors had retired and the juniors did not have kukkiwon certification and they could not give out what they themselves did not have. Many came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum.

But, I did not do that. Instead, I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.

So no standards or technical guidelines were needed to obtain a KKW certification. Indeed, there couldn't have been, nor could you have actually tested anyone before giving them KKW certification (if they didn't know the KKW curriculum, no test could be given using the KKW curriculum, therefore in many/most cases you would be unaware of the actual skill level or proficiency level of the individual since you can't test them.) And not everyone was even interested in learning the KKW curriculum that obtained KKW certification through which begs the question; why did they bother to join an organization they had no intention of learning the curriculum?

So through you, and instructors of the same mind set as you, untold numbers of individuals are now in the KKW, yet don't know what/how the KKW teaches nor do they care. Which in essence means there are untold scores of people in the KKW that are there just for the wall candy.

At least the KKW special testing had some sort of standard for obtaining a KKW certification, lax though it may be. Well, at least for 4th Dan and above. One did not even have to show up for the test to obtain up to a 3rd Dan. But 4th required two KKW forms. I believe one of your choice and one of theirs. So more than one needed to be known. Yet, apparently, according to your post(s), you (and other instructors) didn't require any of that. Just get them in as fast and as far as possible regardless of what they knew or didn't know about KKW TKD.

Again, not meaning to be offensive, but the direct question just screams, "how is this not just another rank mill"? Get them in fast and far regardless of what they know, or don't know and as long as the check clears their gold. Or perhaps a goldmine for the KKW?

And when I promote someone to Kukkiwon dan, I have them agree that they in turn will issue Kukkiwon certification to their students. If they are not going to give it out, then there really is no need for them to get it themselves.

So perhaps there was a standard after all? Not a standard of their skill level and knowledge base (which I've always assumed was a pretty good beginning for testing someone and giving them rank), but rather a standard of whether or not they were going to keep the gravy train rolling full speed into the KKW bank account.

One cannot help but see how many individuals feel about the KKW and the certification they offer;

I too, was under this impression but have since been told 'it doesnt matter' that I dont know any of the curriculum. I think the policy is just sign up anyone to the kukkiwon and worry about the fact they have no idea about the curriculum later. I constantly hear about the advantages of the kukkiwon being that its standardised, yet you make the point that you cant be kukkiwon because you dont know their forms, and then the official member of the 'kukkiwon sign up commitee' jumps on and says you can join despite not knowing their curriculum. Standards? what standards? Ive made several points regarding this (note the plumber analogy), but these points are ignored and brushed over as if they were never posted because it proves just how ridiculous some of the 'theories' actually are. The usual suspects on here contantly tell me my GM should be handing out kukkiwon certs despite the fact we dont do the kukkiwon curriculum. Just sign us up and sweep the fact we dont know any kukkiwon stuff under the carpet it seems. Although, we have 4000 students and if they were all paying money to the kukkiwon for our certificates I could start to see why it is important to them for us to join. $$$$$

And to once again be clear, I'm not jumping on Glenn personally. He has a right to feel as he does. I guess it is obvious that he can give KKW certification to anyone he pleases. I'm examining his words only and not judging him. I would wonder though about the thought process of quantity rather than quality? I suppose the question becomes a simple one for Master Rush, and others viewing this thread that aren't KKW certified; Do you want to belong to an organization that has a myriad of instructors that pass out rank certifications to anyone/everyone regardless of the level of their skill or knowledge of the organizations curriculum? Do you want to belong to an organization that has little or no standardization for obtaining rank certification within their organization? Beyond just agreeing to continue to get others into the organization. It almost sounds like a quota system exists within the KKW?

 

[RobinTKD]

I do not believe it is the proper time to get into specifics about that sort of thing. I would simply let more time pass. I will say that more and more ITF and ATA practitioners are assimilating into kukki taekwondo. Before the new Kukkiwon president took office, I and others were working on a deal to convert 6000 former ATA black belts in several countries to kukkiwon certification. That is the kind of activity I like to be involved in, not arguing about whether or not someone deserves a kukkiwon 1st dan if they don't know taeguek 1 jang. Imagine how many lives are affected if we make something like that happen.

I was just wondering Glenn, you posted this in the 'curious' thread but I think it has more relevance here, you are helping ITF practitioners to gain Kukkiwon certification? Does this mean that they must start practising the Kukkiwon curriculum, ie taegueks over chan hong forms? And that they should start competing in WTF organised events in place of ITF? It's just that i saw you and mastercole say that the Kukkiwon has no standardization which made me wonder why there isn't more ITF practitioners with Kukkiwon certification. I just wanted to know the particulars.

 

[Gorilla]

Very good post. If I was a kukkiwon instructor (which Im obviously not) I would not be helping non kukkiwon people get kukkiwon certs. I would only want to see dedicated kkw tkdoin getting them, people dedicated to the cause. I wouldnt want to see people getting around with kukkiwon certification who are not up to speed with the kukkiwon curriculum and the kukkiwon way of doing things. Its the same reason that when we get a kukkiwon black belt join our club they start at white belt, not because they are any less skilled in tkd than we are, but because they are a black belt in a different system.

How long do they stay a white belt? If they lack skill I understand it. If they meet the standard of a black belt form a skill perspective I would bet that they would move up pretty fast.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

This has been a very interesting thread of discussion, and I greatly appreciate all who have posted. The inclusiveness that Glenn seems to be supporting for the KKW reminds me of the 1st dan promotion that Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee wrote about in A Modern History of Taekwondo. Because all of the kwans practiced different forms and had differences in technique, the examinees were allowed to choose from certain forms for each Dan level.

If the KKW is looking for unification and inclusiveness, why not maintain individual styles' techniques and form sets? Is this the direction the KKW is moving towards? If so, then I can understand the so-to-speak "lack of technical standard."

 

[Twin Fist]

but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does?

one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Okay, I've got to chime in here as there are some things that don't add up. No offense intended to any party, but things need to be examined in light of what the OP has asked, and what has been offered thus far in this thread.

Would it be of value for Master Rush, or anyone that doesn't have a KKW certification, to obtain one? As many have pointed out so far, they don't follow (or wish to follow) the KKW curriculum. What they are doing has met their needs. And apparently, what they/we have done exceeds the standards of the KKW certification (at least in most cases). The reason is simply that there are often NO standards to obtain KKW certification.









So no standards or technical guidelines were needed to obtain a KKW certification. Indeed, there couldn't have been, nor could you have actually tested anyone before giving them KKW certification (if they didn't know the KKW curriculum, no test could be given using the KKW curriculum, therefore in many/most cases you would be unaware of the actual skill level or proficiency level of the individual since you can't test them.) And not everyone was even interested in learning the KKW curriculum that obtained KKW certification through which begs the question; why did they bother to join an organization they had no intention of learning the curriculum?

So through you, and instructors of the same mind set as you, untold numbers of individuals are now in the KKW, yet don't know what/how the KKW teaches nor do they care. Which in essence means there are untold scores of people in the KKW that are there just for the wall candy.

At least the KKW special testing had some sort of standard for obtaining a KKW certification, lax though it may be. Well, at least for 4th Dan and above. One did not even have to show up for the test to obtain up to a 3rd Dan. But 4th required two KKW forms. I believe one of your choice and one of theirs. So more than one needed to be known. Yet, apparently, according to your post(s), you (and other instructors) didn't require any of that. Just get them in as fast and as far as possible regardless of what they knew or didn't know about KKW TKD.

Again, not meaning to be offensive, but the direct question just screams, "how is this not just another rank mill"? Get them in fast and far regardless of what they know, or don't know and as long as the check clears their gold. Or perhaps a goldmine for the KKW?



So perhaps there was a standard after all? Not a standard of their skill level and knowledge base (which I've always assumed was a pretty good beginning for testing someone and giving them rank), but rather a standard of whether or not they were going to keep the gravy train rolling full speed into the KKW bank account.

One cannot help but see how many individuals feel about the KKW and the certification they offer;



And to once again be clear, I'm not jumping on Glenn personally. He has a right to feel as he does. I guess it is obvious that he can give KKW certification to anyone he pleases. I'm examining his words only and not judging him. I would wonder though about the thought process of quantity rather than quality? I suppose the question becomes a simple one for Master Rush, and others viewing this thread that aren't KKW certified; Do you want to belong to an organization that has a myriad of instructors that pass out rank certifications to anyone/everyone regardless of the level of their skill or knowledge of the organizations curriculum? Do you want to belong to an organization that has little or no standardization for obtaining rank certification within their organization? Beyond just agreeing to continue to get others into the organization. It almost sounds like a quota system exists within the KKW?

good post, it raises the same questions that Ive been wondering about. For me personally standardisation is very important in any large organisation, not just in martial arts but all walks of life. I run a large business (not martial arts related) and I attribute much of our success to standardisatiion which becomes increasingly important as a business/org grows. I have two good friends who are kukkiwon black belts. One trains at a very good school, he is a great martial artist and has very well rounded skillset. My other friend is at a mcdojo, they teach a very limited curriculum and just hand out belts like candy with very poor instruction. How can both these clubs be kukkiwon? I would have thought the one big advantage of an organisation is that it provides consistency throughout their schools.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How long do they stay a white belt? If they lack skill I understand it. If they meet the standard of a black belt form a skill perspective I would bet that they would move up pretty fast.

It depends a lot on the individual. Usually it would take someone 12 to 18 months to learn the forms to a black belt standard and be proficient in the rest of our curriculum. Probably just as long as it would take me to become proficient in the kukkiwon's curriculum.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does?

one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....

This is what I've always been told as well. It is among several reasons that the KKW masters that I know have distanced themselves from the KKW i.e. standards have gone to the wayside.

 

[puunui]

you are helping ITF practitioners to gain Kukkiwon certification? Does this mean that they must start practising the Kukkiwon curriculum, ie taegueks over chan hong forms? And that they should start competing in WTF organised events in place of ITF?

Back in the 1970s and through the 1980s, the Kukkiwon had an ITF dan assimilation program, whereby the Kukkiwon would give corresponding Kukkiwon dan rank to ITF dan holders. Many ITF instructors got grandfathered in this way. There was a list published of those who participated, including practitioners such as GM CHO Hee Il, etc. Others went through the Oh Do Kwan, which I believe did the bulk of the transfers. Or maybe transfer is not the right word, since as Oh Do Kwan members, they never left in the first place.

Of these Oh Do Kwan/ITF practitioners, some continued to practice the chang hon tul. Many or most eventually changed over to the Kukkiwon curriculum and participated in WTF events. I can tell you that of the ITF conversions I did here in Hawaii, I think all eventually made the transfer over, including a korean born senior I helped, who in turn helped his students. I will also say that the conversion process was not immediate in all cases, and some still practice itf forms on their own, or teach those itf forms at the higher dan levels.

Funny but true story. I was helping judge the forms competition at our state championships a while back and one of the competitors did an itf form. One of the judges, a newly minted first dan, got confused and asked me "what form is that?". I responded "an itf form", to which she responded "what is itf?". the funny part is that five years prior, her instructor was an ITF man teaching the itf forms only.

It's just that i saw you and mastercole say that the Kukkiwon has no standardization which made me wonder why there isn't more ITF practitioners with Kukkiwon certification. I just wanted to know the particulars.

that isn't what mastercole and I said. What I said was, the unification efforts of the pioneers went in three stages -- name, certification and technical standards. First stage was deciding on the name. Second stage was agreeing to a unified certification instead of kwan certification. Last stage is unification of technical standards. It took Korea, with all its motivated pioneers and leaders, forty five or more years to unify. It took twenty years to settle the name, thirty years to agree on kukkiwon certification, and forty five to finally get technical standards unified. Today, the instructors coming out of korea are all very much standardized in their name, certification and technical standards.

In the US and in other countries, we are still at stage two, which is unification of certification through the Kukkiwon. At some point, we will be at stage three, and I believe these kukkiwon instructor courses as well as the WTF World Poomsae Championships are helping that process. But in the US, especially, there are those out there who desire kukkiwon certification, but cannot obtain it for whatever reason. Those are the people we are trying to help.

Those who are already at stage three, in my opinion would better serve the efforts of the Kukkiwon by doing their part in getting others to stage three, instead of complaining. Anyone can complain, but it is a different thing to go out there and actually try to improve things.

How can people help to raise the technical standards? Many ways. For one thing, they can continue to concentrate on their students. they can also go to courses and help people there who are having a hard time with a particular movement. they can take their technically accurate students to tournaments and raise the bar by winning medals at those tournaments. They can become poomsae referees and help to have referees' standards of accuracy raised. they can give seminars to other schools, for free, to help raise their standards. they can go train with their fellow instructors and show them the latest standards. there are many many things that people can do to help raise the standards in their neighborhood, their state, nationally and worldwide.

All we ask is 1%. Do your part to better taekwondo by 1% and take care to not hurt taekwondo in anyway. There are enough people out there whose entire mission seems to be to try and hurt taekwondo, the kukkiwon, usat, wtf, the olympics as much as possible. Please do not be one of them. Instead, if you are a kukki taekwondoin, go out of your way to be the opposite of that. Use those people as an example of how not to be. 1%. If everyone did that, then we all will get there that much faster.

Put another way, treat your fellow taekwondoin, all taekwondoin irregardless of affiliation or certification, like family members. Welcome them in. Make them feel at home. If they need help, help them. Treat them as you would your own father, mother, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, cousin, son, daughter, because that is what they are. Taekwondo is a family, and they are your family members.

 

[puunui]

If the KKW is looking for unification and inclusiveness, why not maintain individual styles' techniques and form sets? Is this the direction the KKW is moving towards? If so, then I can understand the so-to-speak "lack of technical standard."

See my discussion about the three stages of unification. There is no "lack of technical standard".

 

[puunui]

The inclusiveness that Glenn seems to be supporting for the KKW reminds me of the 1st dan promotion that Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee wrote about in A Modern History of Taekwondo. Because all of the kwans practiced different forms and had differences in technique, the examinees were allowed to choose from certain forms for each Dan level.

That was stage two, where the pioneers attempted to unify the certification through the Korea Taesoodo Association, instead of individual kwan giving kwan dan certification. With the creation of the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae, that set up stage three, which wasn't fully set into motion until the 80's and early 90s. That belt test was in 1962. Think stages of unification, then things will be clear. And on your own personal situation, ask yourself, which stage are you at?

 

[puunui]

but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does? one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....

Sure, when everyone is at stage three (technical unification) then yes everyone will be doing basically the same thing. That is the way it is in korea, for less than twenty years now. In the US, we are not quite at that stage. we are still stuck at stage two, which is trying to get everyone on the same page, certification wise. We are at least past stage one, which is agreeing on the name taekwondo, although General Choi tried hard to chaotically destroy or muddle that, by saying kukki taekwondo is not "real" or "authentic" taekwondo.

Bottom line for you is, if you do not want kukkiwon certification, then don't worry about it. no one will force you to get it.

 

[puunui]

Does this mean that they must start practising the Kukkiwon curriculum, ie taegueks over chan hong forms? And that they should start competing in WTF organised events in place of ITF?

I don't know if I really answered this question of yours. But let me say this, I have helped a lot of very sincere instructors out there all over the US, and I can tell you that every time I look at the medalists at a USTU National Event, I always see people that I have promoted to kukkiwon poom or dan rank. I also see people who I have promoted who are now becoming WTF International Referees, and at least one is being suggested as a possible state president candidate, and that sort of thing. I saw names of those I promoted as participants at last week's US Olympic Trials. They are all over the place, achieving great things for themselves, their teacher, their school and their art. Why not promote them and help them live out their dreams? I rather do that than sit behind my computer and try to continuously rain on their parade. I want to help them, just like I want to help any other member of my family.

And if that makes me a bad guy, for wanting to help fellow members of my family, then so be it.

 

[puunui]

I believe this has been the approach of the pioneers with respect to kukkiwon certification, Matthew Chapter 13:

1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

The Kukkiwon (and I) concentrate on and hope for the last group, the ones that hopefully fall on good ground and bear fruit, some hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. The haters concentrate on those seeds that fall by the wayside, or upon stony places, or among thorns, and then criticize the Kukkiwon for giving certification to those types of people. Which would you rather be, someone who gives their faith and hope to people, or the one who condemns the entire system because not every seed bears fruit?

 

[RobinTKD]

Please don't misunderstand me, my thoughts were that I think it's a good thing for all Taekwondo to come under one umbrella. For me, I'd like to still practice the Chang Hon tul, but if I was to fight in competition, I'd do it under the WTF rule set because it's full contact, and I can't stand 'semi-contact' sparring. Taekwondo is so broken in the UK with regards to the ITF it's ridiculous, but you look at our Kukkiwon schools and they're churning out champions like Aaron Cook, Sarah Stevenson, and a hopeful future champion Jade Jones. If the ITF came under the Kukkiwon, with the freedom to still practice the way they do, but with full contact sparring, i can't see that as anything other than positive

 

[Kong Soo Do]

See my discussion about the three stages of unification. There is no "lack of technical standard".

Not what you said previously, which I quoted on page 3;

It is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their political affiliation or the technical guidelines that they follow

I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.

If they don't know the KKW curriculum then they lack the technical standards of the KKW.

And to continue, Twin Fist asked made the following legitimate observation;

but isnt the whole point of the KKW so that if any KKW dan holder goes to a new school, he KNOWS the school teaches what he knows and makes sure the dan holder knows what the school does? one of the big selling points i was told was that you can travel and know what you are walking into with any KKW school anywhere in the world.....

Your reply;

Sure, when everyone is at stage three (technical unification) then yes everyone will be doing basically the same thing. That is the way it is in korea, for less than twenty years now. In the US, we are not quite at that stage. we are still stuck at stage two, which is trying to get everyone on the same page, certification wise.

So we now have a huge, glaring problem Glenn. According to you and this '3-stage' program the KKW wants to get everyone on board with the same certification and THEN they want to get the technical unification part taken care of at some point in the future. But wait just a moment!!!

I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life.

Many came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum.

I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.

You just defeated this 3-stage program Glenn. If this 3-stage program is sincere, which it looks like quite a few people have their doubts and consider it a money grab, but IF it is sincere then they will never get past the 2nd stage thanks to people like you and others that hand out KKW certs to anyone and everyone. By your own admission, you've given KKW certification to individuals that had no intention of ever learning the KKW curriculum! By stating this, you knew in advance. Now those that didn't care about the KKW or their curriculum can provide KKW certification to others that never learn or intend to learn the KKW curriculum! And your just one person that has done this multiple times. There are others that have gone on to do the same thing over and over. So by your hand, and the hand of those like you the KKW now has untold numbers of people that don't know the KKW curriculum....will never know the KKW curriculum and will get KKW certification to others that don't know and won't know the KKW curriculum. And obviously its still happening today.

So much for ever getting to stage 3!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Sure, when everyone is at stage three (technical unification) then yes everyone will be doing basically the same thing. That is the way it is in korea, for less than twenty years now. In the US, we are not quite at that stage. we are still stuck at stage two, which is trying to get everyone on the same page, certification wise. We are at least past stage one, which is agreeing on the name taekwondo, although General Choi tried hard to chaotically destroy or muddle that, by saying kukki taekwondo is not "real" or "authentic" taekwondo.
Bottom line for you is, if you do not want kukkiwon certification, then don't worry about it. no one will force you ito get it.

It seems more logical to me to get technical unification first and then go from there. Thats the way most successful business models work. Set standards, make sure standards are adhered to and then grow the business/org. The theory of just monopolise a service, then worry about standards seems quite backward from a business perspective. As a potential kkw convert I would rather see the complete business model, the standards, the degree to which standards are enforced, THEN I can make an informed decision regarding the organisation. Then again, Im australian and am probably too backward to understand doing it the other way around