Al, if I were you, I would save my energy. Been down this road before, the perspectives are just too different. You're thinking globally and in accordance with the pioneer's thoughts and wishes. He is not.
Certification
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Al, if I were you, I would save my energy. Been down this road before, the perspectives are just too different. You're thinking globally and in accordance with the pioneer's thoughts and wishes. He is not.
I can't speak for the entire U.S., but there's something interesting I'm discovering in my neck of the woods in the St. Louis metro area and I'm sure this applies to many other parts of the nation. A number of big and succesful taekwondo dojangs here, which many might describe as McDojangs, advertise themselves as Kukkiwon style schools, with Kukkiwon certified "grandmasters," but they no longer offer their members opportunity for Kukkiwon dan certification. I don't think such dojangs should really be considered as Kukkiwon taekwondo schools. Those dojangs often carry the Kukkiwon logo on their web sites, teach variations of Kukkiwon poomsae and sparring for the most part, but when it comes to certification, they issue in-house dan certificate, for which they charge very stiff prices. Often members of those dojangs assume they've been issued internationally recognized certification, only to sadly realize that is not the case when they visit dojangs run by Kukkiwon certified instructors, who strongly believe their students should get opportunity to get the same type of certification they (teachers) have.
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ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Or perhaps, unlike you, he is prepared to take onboard all schools of thought. Its been a great discussion. Its not a 'game', there is no winner in these discussions. It is people from different backgrounds sharing their experiences and beliefs, it's what makes places like these so great.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Thats interesting. It seems a double standard to "use" the kukkiwon as a sales tool but not pass on acreditation from the kukkiwon. They cant have their cake and eat it too. Its a different thing entirely when a school does not give out kukkiwon certs but also does not say they teach the kukkiwon material.
Over and above the fact that there are no "ex kukkiwon" guys. Even if you do something incredibly hateful, malicious or fraudulent towards the kukkiwon, the kukkiwon won't kick you out. They may demote you, and take away your kukkiwon poom and dan promotional privileges, but they won't kick you out such that you are an "ex kukkiwon guy".
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
What about someone who starts out training kkw tkd but leaves and trains in another form of tkd never to return, wouldnt that make them ex-kukkiwon? when a rugby league player leaves the code and goes to rugby union he is considered an ex-league player, would the same not apply in other sports? I know my instructor regards himself as an ex-kkw guy.
We try to help these types of students too. They have stage 1 and for the most part stage 3, but not 2, the most common situation really in the United States. Easy fix.
One thing we try to tell these students is not to be bitter, angry or resentful towards their teachers, who are their teachers for the rest of their lives. In my book, there is no such thing as "former teacher", just like there is no such thing as "former father" or "former mother". Your parents are your parents for your entire life. Once someone becomes bitter towards their teacher, then it is only natural that they will also become bitter towards other seniors as well. That we cannot have. That trait, open disrespect for seniors, has caused more harm to taekwondo and all other martial arts really, than all other causes combined. Once I see that trait, I generally do not promote them. Sometimes I will, if I wish to set up "the bachi" as we say in Hawaii. But open disrespect for seniors is a huge red flag.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Actually, talking with puunui over the past 16, 17 or so years (I forget) eventually moved me to a point when I am more willing to look at other schools of thought. I'm still not as accepting as he is though. Just because you don't agree with his comments, don't think he is not willing to look deeply into something. Maybe what you are experiencing is that he has already been there and done that, for real, kind of thing.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
IMEO, it is very odd that someone tells others "I'm not longer with Kukkiwon" [insert excuse]. I knew some guys like that. It seems to mostly be guys (not all) with big egos and self image problems who want to be the big fish but could only do so in a small pond, so they went off to make a small pond and plopped down in it. I observed these guys and always notice they are really self conscience in the main stream, to many other big fish, or bigger fish swimming around in the big pond. And they make up all these negative things to say about the big pond to keep there student away from the big pond. I feel like they they hide behind the false vale of so-called tradition because ultimately, they feel they can not compete in the bigger scheme of things. Of course that is just in my very limited experience.
Reminds me of that movie THE VILLAGE
The Village is a 2004 American thriller film written and directed by M. Night Shyamalan about an end-of-the-19th-century village whose inhabitants live in fear of the creatures inhabiting the woods beyond it.
The occupants of a small village live in fear of nameless creatures in the surrounding woods. They have built a barrier of oil lanterns and watch towers that are constantly manned to keep watch for "Those We Don't Speak Of." It is explained that the villagers have a long-standing truce with the monsters; the villagers do not go into their woods, and the creatures do not enter their village. The villagers execute a well-rehearsed alarm, in which they rush home, lock their doors and hide in their cellars. The dead, skinned bodies of small animals start to appear around the village. But it all turns out to be an elaborate hoax.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Any time Ive come across an "ex-kukkiwon", they have been quite good about it with no ego. In fact, if you dont ask, they wont bring it up. I was unaware of what the kukkiwon was until one day reading about it on the internet. I was a red belt at the time and asked my instructor if he was kukkiwon certified. He told me that years ago he was, but had moved on. He didnt speak negatively of the kukkiwon at all, and had I never asked he never would have brought it up. The many, many kukkiwon guys who come to our club are the same. When they first start they may briefly mention that they are looking for something a little less 'sporty', but as a whole they generally speak quite favourably of the kukkiwon and really dont discuss it. Ive been out many times with these guys at our post-grading korean bbq and I have often spoke to them at length about it and they are more than happy to discuss their time in kukkiwon clubs, but unless someone asks they really dont bring it up. Its a shame you know of ex kukkiwon guys who have ego and openly speak negatively about it. My personal experience has been different. I think there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides of the fence. I quite often find that people think that independent clubs are made up of anti-kukkiwon people spreading their anti-kukkiwon propaganda to all who will listen. My experience has been very different, and no doubt the same can be seen in most independent clubs . We dont see the kukkiwon as a threat to our business, they offer a different product. Not a better product, not a worse product, just a different product, just as we are no threat to kukkiwon clubs. We co-exist just nicely and dont need to bag out on the other to boost our own egos.
I know I met you person at that USTU Meeting which was attended by Dr. KIM Un Yong and Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan. In fact I was sitting with GM Lee in the lobby of the hotel when you came up to say hello to GM Lee. That was in the mid 90's sometime.
Kukkiwon certification does carry a lot of weight. It is at the same time the most desired certification out there and also the one that is given the most. It is easy to see why some people would want to rain on the Kukkiwon's parade.
Either that, or they simply want to keep all of the testing fees for themselves, and then make up elaborate stories about how much more valuable the dojang certification is, because it is signed by them and not someone thousands of miles away in Korea. If they want to keep all the testing fees, then fine, but they don't need to speak ill of the Kukkiwon, especially if they themselves are busy seeking out higher kukkiwon dan for themselves.
Yes, those who like to criticize the Kukkiwon should really show up and try to do the same thing at the World Hanmadang, the World Championships or the Olympics. Stage an "Occupy Kukkiwon" sit in, and see how much support they get for that from taekwondoin. Kukkiwon certification is the most desired taekwondo certification in the world. People do all kinds of crazy things to obtain it. What I try to do is take the madness out of the process, as well as the high costs sometimes associated with kukkiwon certification. When I process Kukkiwon certification, I charge them cost, plus whatever it is for postage. I don't make anything on this stuff. But then again, I am not in the habit of charging family members big bucks when they need help.
Good movie. I never thought about how the parable of the movie fit with sheltered martial arts students before. Mr. Shyamalan made good movies, but I think he has slowed down now.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Yes and no. Remember the KKW does not dictate what you can and cannot teach in your school. All they require, for their certification is that you, at minimum, adhere to a set standard of form and techniques in order to receive their certificates. If you want to teach arnis, kempo, kumdo, hapkido, they don't care. When you stand in front of their board, you will only be tested on their standards.
Example: If I was to go to a KKW school, I will be recognized as a KKW 3rd dan (hopefully 4th by the end of this year
). I will know their KKW curriculum requirements. However, they may have more curriculum above that set by KKW which they require in order for me to achieve their school certificate. So in essence you have an idea of what you are walking into from a KKW perspective, but the school may have more material than just KKW.
d1jinx
Master Black Belt
Yes and no. Remember the KKW does not dictate what you can and cannot teach in your school. All they require, for their certification is that you, at minimum, adhere to a set standard of form and techniques in order to receive their certificates. If you want to teach arnis, kempo, kumdo, hapkido, they don't care. When you stand in front of their board, you will only be tested on their standards.
Example: If I was to go to a KKW school, I will be recognized as a KKW 3rd dan (hopefully 4th by the end of this year
I just dont understand how people cant understand this. It seems everyone looks at Kukkiwon's requirements and says "thats it?"...
I cant tell you how many times i tried to explain that to people and they just didnt want to "get it". I think it was more of an-anti-kukkiwon thing. usually those against it love to quote the "requirements of kukkiwon".
but it does not help when schools out there only do that, the minimum.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I think the idea is a little bit foreign to martial artists that study other arts. Take for example the various karate styles, even those that came from common (relatively) ancestry such as Seidokan Shorin-ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. They have different syllabi, perhaps with more shared than not, but there's sufficient differences as well as an overall VOLUME of material that it makes the idea of a small federated subset of learning such as the KKW requirement, to be odd in conception to people who used to the other way of doing things.
Now translate that to entirely different systems like Goju-ryu vs. Shotokan and the perplexed looks get bigger.
I make no value judgement on the KKW's 'sparse' way of doing requirements. I can see pluses and minuses either way, depending on what one considers important.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
As I said in a previous post, I really dont think that many people are "anti-kukkiwon".There are people who dont see joining the kukkiwon as necessary, but I really havent met many people who are anti-kukkiwon, Im certainly not.
If that were "only" the requirements, then why did so many people flunk out or didn't even bother to take the test at the Kukkiwon special testing? If people think that they requirements are "easy", then let them take the test themselves.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Again, I dont recall anybody saying kukkiwon requirements were "easy", Ive seen my kukkiwon friend grade for his black belt and it certainly wasnt easy. I couldnt have done it, but then I couldnt pass a shotokan, bjj, judo, aikido, hapkido, wing chun etc grading either because its not what I do. I think thats the point most make, they dont think the kukkiwon is 'easy', or 'watered down' or for 'kids' etc, I think the point I hear most make (not just here, but most people I talk to), is that they dont see the point in being acredited in something they dont do.If that were "only" the requirements, then why did so many people flunk out or didn't even bother to take the test at the Kukkiwon special testing? If people think that they requirements are "easy", then let them take the test themselves.
