Can an underweight man realistically protect himself/fight his way out of a situation?

[Hyoho]

Aren't we taking about MA. What has weight and size got to do with it? For that matter, strength, speed, age etc.

 

[Kofo]

For the record my taiji shifu is half my size and over 20 years older than I am and can throw me around like a ragdoll, knock me to the floor, joint lock me and move me all over the place....and he does it all while looking way to relaxed to be doing it all....that in an of itself can make you nervous

Sounds like you, like so many others got too much respect or fear for your trainer. If your trainer fought a twice his size street criminal, with a killer instinct, then your trainer would lose big time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sounds like you, like so many others got too much respect or fear for your trainer. If your trainer fought a twice his size street criminal, with a killer instinct, then your trainer would lose big time.

Sounds like you...don't know me very well

 

[Hyoho]

After years of teaching and training Japanese to win competitions. One can say we look for specific body types in specific arts. We also look for that "killer instinct" and channel it. However students do grow up. I have seen police riot team members as big as myself wipe the floor with others and smaller guys do the same. So size has little to do with it. As for age a visiting kyudan in his 70s early 80s wipes the floor with everyone, the older the better. Speed factor plays little in the outcome. Its all about timing. M.A is not about strength but fitness and techniques are.

The youngest fittest, strongest stand little chance. Just like swatting a mosquito. I spend years on the opposite side to anything up to 55 of them seven day

 

[Kofo]

Time for reality check.

If you have two persons with identical technical and mental skills, then the biggest guy will win.

Hence the reason why all combat sports got weightclasses...

 

[Kofo]

As for age a visiting kyudan in his 70s early 80s wipes the floor with everyone, the older the better.

People belived that stuff in the 80ies. How about that kyudan entering UFC ?

Didnt think so...

 

[Hyoho]

Time for reality check.

If you have two persons with identical technical and mental skills, then the biggest guy will win.

Hence the reason why all combat sports got weightclasses...

You forgot identical age.

 

[Hyoho]

Of course not UFC dont have such ages but senior guys seem to make mincemeat of younger inexperience ones. As said there are rules in UFC but maybe they wouldn't stick to them. But the same can by said for other arts. This is 2013. Buy a gun! If someone breaks into my house I'm not going to shout out, "Hey I taught budo in Japan for 40 years" I'll shoot him in a way that he won't tell tales.

 

[Kofo]

Well the "sensei respect" is probably worthy a discussion of its own. But my impression is that noone will beat their sensei in sparring because they think they cant or because they are afraid of some wicked revenge like a hit in the troat. Just imagine if theres a visiting master to the club and a yellow belt street guy beats the crap out of him ? The senseis are building an aura that they are unbeatable and knows secret technics unknown to the lower ranked that they will use if necessary. Like "You will learn so and so at 2. dan"

 

[Kofo]

But, back to the main question: is it realistic for someone like me to be able to protect himself/fight his way out of any surprise situations? Especially against a larger opponent? (multiple opponents are subject to debate for heavier people, so I'll leave this one out for now)

(By fight I mean being cornered, and having no choice but to take the guy(s) down)

Realistically, no.

People who decide to train MA are nice middle class people who dont want to fight.

Mean Street people dont bother with MA as they instictively knows it does not work. A street person would train weights and kickboxing,MMA or just depend on his fighting spirit personality.

So we got a nice little middle class guy versus a big mean criminal...

 

[Hyoho]

We "sensei respect" is probably worthy a discussion of its own. But my impression is that noone will beat their sensei in sparring because they think they cant or because they are afraid of some wicked revenge like a hit in the troat. Just imagine if theres a visiting master to the club and a yellow belt street guy beats the crap out of him ? The senseis are building an aura that they are unbeatable and knows secret technics unknown to the lower ranked that they will use if necessary. Like "You will learn so and so at 2. dan"

No aura about it. You have your job because you 'can' stand on the teachers side and take on the best of 55 students every day. They learn from losing and hopefully become good enough to win national championships. Add to that the fact that they got there in the first place because many of them won scholarships to be in the dojo.

Practice twice a day Monday to Friday, all day weekends. A Show an is a rank beginer. A sensei has no business disillusioning a lower grade that he can handle himself in such circumstances.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ooh, you look like you're going to be fun...

Sounds like you, like so many others got too much respect or fear for your trainer. If your trainer fought a twice his size street criminal, with a killer instinct, then your trainer would lose big time.

And... this is substantiated by...?

Time for reality check.

Really.

If you have two persons with identical technical and mental skills, then the biggest guy will win.

Again, substantiated by....?

Hence the reason why all combat sports got weightclasses...

Er... actually, no. The weightclass thing is nothing to do with the bigger guy winning, it's to create more even consistently even matches. I know you're going to think that's the same thing, but it's really not.

People belived that stuff in the 80ies. How about that kyudan entering UFC ?

Didnt think so...

Hmm, if the Kyudan is from an art that I think Hyoho is talking about, I'd probably back them in the UFC.... provided they're actually allowed to use their art, of course. What's the typical UFC competitor's muto dori like? And I'm not quite sure what a sporting contest has to do with the OP asking about being able to defend himself... very different environments and skill sets, after all...

Well the "sensei respect" is probably worthy a discussion of its own. But my impression is that noone will beat their sensei in sparring because they think they cant or because they are afraid of some wicked revenge like a hit in the troat. Just imagine if theres a visiting master to the club and a yellow belt street guy beats the crap out of him ? The senseis are building an aura that they are unbeatable and knows secret technics unknown to the lower ranked that they will use if necessary. Like "You will learn so and so at 2. dan"

There's the question... where is your impression from? I've done sparring with my instructor and beaten them (not often, and not without then receiving fair recompense...), and I encourage my students to look to ways to beat me when we get into free-form training... of course, the distinction isn't whether or not the instructor can be beaten (occasionally), it's the consistency in the way they win. A lucky shot or technique can really be just that.

Of course, there are other secrets, but I can't tell you about them until you're at least 3rd Dan...

Realistically, no.

You don't have anywhere near enough information to make that call... no-one on the thread does, not even the OP.

People who decide to train MA are nice middle class people who dont want to fight.

HA! You seriously believe that? Really? People who don't want to fight, those who aren't interested in fighting, they're the ones seeking out instruction in combative technique and technology? Really? I suppose the Army is only made up of people who don't like guns as well...

Look, some people who train martial arts do so due to some "Karate Kid" idea of "so I won't have to fight".... but to say that that's the sole, or even dominant demographic is just plain ignorant of reality. And that's without even getting into the different appeal of different martial arts....

Mean Street people dont bother with MA as they instictively knows it does not work. A street person would train weights and kickboxing,MMA or just depend on his fighting spirit personality.

"Mean Street people"? And they don't bother with martial arts, so they train in... martial arts? Kickboxing and MMA? Oh, and for the record, weight training is, in a real way, one of the most dominant self defence practices out there... it's an attempt to apply a tactic of dissuasion via appearance ("I'm big and scary, please don't attack me"). Again, not all, of course, but it's certainly a major reason (unconsciously, at least).

The reality is that a "bar-room brawler" is more likely to "train" by drinking beer (adding weight behind their actions), physically, verbally, and psychologically dominating, and launching a sudden (often single), unexpected, and blindsiding attack.... most often a basic, but reliable and experienced one. Of course, you'd need to clarify first if you're talking about social, or asocial violence... is it a resource predator (more likely to train by carrying a weapon, not even necessarily knowing how to use it other than to threaten), is it a social status seeker (fuelled by adrenaline and alcohol, not training, but more likely to be a more athletic person than other types), or what?

Your profile states that you train in "real self defence". What do you mean by that? Your posts here don't indicate much reality, honestly, nor any real understanding of actual self defence methodology, violence, or anything outside of MMA/UFC imagery....

So we got a nice little middle class guy versus a big mean criminal...

Both of whom seem to only exist in your mind.

 

[Kofo]

Ooh, you look like you're going to be fun...



And... this is substantiated by...?



Really.



Again, substantiated by....?



Er... actually, no. The weightclass thing is nothing to do with the bigger guy winning, it's to create more even consistently even matches. I know you're going to think that's the same thing, but it's really not.



Hmm, if the Kyudan is from an art that I think Hyoho is talking about, I'd probably back them in the UFC.... provided they're actually allowed to use their art, of course. What's the typical UFC competitor's muto dori like? And I'm not quite sure what a sporting contest has to do with the OP asking about being able to defend himself... very different environments and skill sets, after all...



There's the question... where is your impression from? I've done sparring with my instructor and beaten them (not often, and not without then receiving fair recompense...), and I encourage my students to look to ways to beat me when we get into free-form training... of course, the distinction isn't whether or not the instructor can be beaten (occasionally), it's the consistency in the way they win. A lucky shot or technique can really be just that.

Of course, there are other secrets, but I can't tell you about them until you're at least 3rd Dan...



You don't have anywhere near enough information to make that call... no-one on the thread does, not even the OP.



HA! You seriously believe that? Really? People who don't want to fight, those who aren't interested in fighting, they're the ones seeking out instruction in combative technique and technology? Really? I suppose the Army is only made up of people who don't like guns as well...

Look, some people who train martial arts do so due to some "Karate Kid" idea of "so I won't have to fight".... but to say that that's the sole, or even dominant demographic is just plain ignorant of reality. And that's without even getting into the different appeal of different martial arts....



"Mean Street people"? And they don't bother with martial arts, so they train in... martial arts? Kickboxing and MMA? Oh, and for the record, weight training is, in a real way, one of the most dominant self defence practices out there... it's an attempt to apply a tactic of dissuasion via appearance ("I'm big and scary, please don't attack me"). Again, not all, of course, but it's certainly a major reason (unconsciously, at least).

The reality is that a "bar-room brawler" is more likely to "train" by drinking beer (adding weight behind their actions), physically, verbally, and psychologically dominating, and launching a sudden (often single), unexpected, and blindsiding attack.... most often a basic, but reliable and experienced one. Of course, you'd need to clarify first if you're talking about social, or asocial violence... is it a resource predator (more likely to train by carrying a weapon, not even necessarily knowing how to use it other than to threaten), is it a social status seeker (fuelled by adrenaline and alcohol, not training, but more likely to be a more athletic person than other types), or what?

Your profile states that you train in "real self defence". What do you mean by that? Your posts here don't indicate much reality, honestly, nor any real understanding of actual self defence methodology, violence, or anything outside of MMA/UFC imagery....



Both of whom seem to only exist in your mind.

Well, well

Its my opinion that mindset is the most important in self-defence. Not complicated technics, foot position etc.

Its common sense that the biggest guys win when skill set is identical.

Why would anyone do traditional MA if he wanted to fight ? The logical thing would be to start boxing, kickb or MMA. The majority of people who start with traditional MA want to learn self defense. They do not wanna do realistic full contact sparring, if so they would of course join boxing or MMA.

Why doesnt criminals train traditional Martial Arts if it really works magic in a street fight ?

Muscle is of course a major part of self defense, only a professional fighter would stand a chance in a fight against a 2 meter tall Strong man competitor, your average club black belt wouldnt stand a chance. The level of a black belt is not relatively any better than a recreational tennisplayer compared to Rafael Nadal.

MA would probably work wonders towards a traditional drunk. I actually belive that.

However MA got no chance when the oponent is a seasoned, traumatized, ruthless criminal, used to a hard life in and out of prison. Just the look of his muscular body, tatoos and psycotic eyes would make 99% of black belts freeze.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why doesnt criminals train traditional Martial Arts if it really works magic in a street fight ?

do they learn MMA

However MA got no chance when the oponent is a seasoned, traumatized, ruthless criminal, used to a hard life in and out of prison. Just the look of his muscular body, tatoos and psycotic eyes would make 99% of black belts freeze.

You have statistics of experience to back this claim up or is this just your opinion, have you seen and trained at all TMA schools and styles, do you train MMA to fight and do you fight in an MMA ring....Otherwise you have an interesting little fantasy world going on here....

Personally I am rather impresses with the practioners of MMA and I am also of the belief that there are more in MMA, sanshou and boxing that can handle a fight outside of the ring than those that train TMA. However I also know that there are those that train TCMA that can defend themselves rather well if need be.

But you also have to understand that you are looking at two different views of fighting when you talk TMA and MMA. MMA generally trains to compete in a ring against an opponent they will likely see again either in the ring or outside of it. TMA is training to fight only if necessary and hopes to never see the other guy again.

As for you comment

Why would anyone do traditional MA if he wanted to fight ? The logical thing would be to start boxing, kickb or MMA. The majority of people who start with traditional MA want to learn self defense. They do not wanna do realistic full contact sparring, if so they would of course join boxing or MMA.

You obviously never trained Xingyiquan or Baguazhang where I trained Xingyiquan and Baguazhang or Wing Chun were I trained it. And you obviously did not start training when I did, we hit pretty hard way back then

Now before this can move forward you really need to answer my above questions which are

1. Do you have statistics of experience to back this claim up or is this just your opinion?
2. Have you seen and trained at all TMA schools and styles?
3. Do you train MMA to fight and do you fight in an MMA ring?.

And I will also ask

1. Do you train Boxing, or Kick Boxing, or Muay Thaior any other art you feel is usable in a fight
2. If you did train some style you think is traditional, what was that style or styles and how much time did you train it or them individually?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well, well

Its my opinion that mindset is the most important in self-defence. Not complicated technics, foot position etc.

Its common sense that the biggest guys win when skill set is identical.

Why would anyone do traditional MA if he wanted to fight ? The logical thing would be to start boxing, kickb or MMA. The majority of people who start with traditional MA want to learn self defense. They do not wanna do realistic full contact sparring, if so they would of course join boxing or MMA.

Why doesnt criminals train traditional Martial Arts if it really works magic in a street fight ?

Muscle is of course a major part of self defense, only a professional fighter would stand a chance in a fight against a 2 meter tall Strong man competitor, your average club black belt wouldnt stand a chance. The level of a black belt is not relatively any better than a recreational tennisplayer compared to Rafael Nadal.

MA would probably work wonders towards a traditional drunk. I actually belive that.

However MA got no chance when the oponent is a seasoned, traumatized, ruthless criminal, used to a hard life in and out of prison. Just the look of his muscular body, tatoos and psycotic eyes would make 99% of black belts freeze.

There are actually some elements of truth here mixed in with a big old pile of overgeneralizations and misapprehensions. Lets see if we can unpack some of that.

Truths:
Size and strength make a difference in a fight, especially an unarmed fight.
Mindset makes a difference in a fight. (This includes but is not limited to: mental toughness, willingness to inflict harm, awareness, ability to control fear, and much more.)
Experience in real fights makes a difference.
With all the above in mind, it's not inaccurate to say that a martial artist who is a casual hobbyist, who is not particularly large or athletic or a natural fighter, and who trains in a school with limited contact and intensity may be at a disadvantage in a fight with a untrained street thug who is bigger, stronger, tougher, more aggressive, and who has been in more fights.
Many martial artists with black belts do fall into this "casual hobbyist" category.

Corrections:
Boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are martial arts. (You can make the argument that MMA is actually an approach to training that incorporates several traditional arts rather than being a singular art in itself. Either way, the point stands.)
Boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are not the only arts which incorporate full-contact sparring. Not by a long shot.
Some criminals do train martial arts (besides boxing/kickboxing/MMA). Most don't train anything, relying on other elements such as superior weaponry, numbers, or surprise to come out on top. Martial arts require hard work and dedication, which are not the hallmarks of your typical street thug. (You are correct that martial arts are not magic. If they were a magical easy short-cut to automatic victory, then street punks and everybody else would be training.)

Summary:
There are a lot of elements that go into winning or losing a fight.* Strength, athleticism, determination, technical skill, weaponry, tactical considerations, and so on. The more of a deficit you have in one area, the more you have to make up in others. Saying that one of these elements is all-determinative is just as incorrect as saying that it is irrelevant. Good martial arts training can help build some or all of these elements and thereby increase your odds of success. This depends heavily on how you conduct your training and there is no magic about it - just hard work.

*(As Chris and others have pointed out, "self-defense" does not mean the same as "fighting.")

 

[Hyoho]

@kofo

Some of us have done both sports oriented arts and traditional for many years.It's difficult to keep both going without one leeching into the other. But it does help us differentiate the pros and cons of each.

When it comes to fighting spirit, resolution to deal with a situation etc. Either is OK. As I already mentioned "fighters" with a hungry disposition are chosen for gendai (modern)teams and individuals to win national championships.

I never ever took up what I do to defend myself. On the contrary I did get in a bit of trouble when young and initially used budo to let off steam.

MA is self discipline and lots of repetition to ingrain system into natural ability. Not usually a criminal mindset. Then again a lot of MA utilizes tools as weapons. So if you think that some nice defensive guy won't pick up a pool cue or bottle if threatened you would be wrong. Getting back to the original topic...its about winning, whatever the circumstances. Regardless of weight, age, size whatever. If you are threatened, you take the guy out with whatever it takes.

Do you really think that 99% of "black belts" as you call them would freeze? I suggest you come to Japan for a while for some special training. You better bring some pampers and get good insurance. My school kids were Sandan after with eight years of daily training. And that's for starters

 

[Kofo]

Do you really think that 99% of "black belts" as you call them would freeze? I suggest you come to Japan for a while for some special training. You better bring some pampers and get good insurance. My school kids were Sandan after with eight years of daily training. And that's for starters

It depends of course on the blackbelt and the attacker, in every culture you got someone that looks like the ultimate public enemy. In Japan maybe a Yakuza ? So if a regular Japanese office worker, blackbelt, is facing a Yakuza you tell me who should freeze of the two ?

 

[Kofo]

Corrections:
Boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are martial arts. (You can make the argument that MMA is actually an approach to training that incorporates several traditional arts rather than being a singular art in itself. Either way, the point stands.)
Boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are not the only arts which incorporate full-contact sparring. Not by a long shot.
Some criminals do train martial arts (besides boxing/kickboxing/MMA). Most don't train anything, relying on other elements such as superior weaponry, numbers, or surprise to come out on top. Martial arts require hard work and dedication, which are not the hallmarks of your typical street thug. (You are correct that martial arts are not magic. If they were a magical easy short-cut to automatic victory, then street punks and everybody else would be training.)

For me it is natural to separate Traditional Martial Arts from Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA because the difference is simply to big. Whenever you see a guy with a Karate or TKD background enter UFC or K1 you cant see any sign of their roots, its like they have to totally abandon their traditional style to stand a chance.

 

[Kofo]

Summary:
There are a lot of elements that go into winning or losing a fight.* Strength, athleticism, determination, technical skill, weaponry, tactical considerations, and so on. The more of a deficit you have in one area, the more you have to make up in others. Saying that one of these elements is all-determinative is just as incorrect as saying that it is irrelevant. Good martial arts training can help build some or all of these elements and thereby increase your odds of success. This depends heavily on how you conduct your training and there is no magic about it - just hard work.

*(As Chris and others have pointed out, "self-defense" does not mean the same as "fighting.")

I respect your opinion, but I feel that mindset is the most important. You see athletes choke under pressure in all sports, baseball, soccer, tennis etc They have all the training and so on, but still end up freezing at the most important time.

So when it comes to your regular guy blackbelt in a life and death situation, Im sorry, I just dont see him turning in to Jean Claude van Damme kicking the bad guys ***.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The old guys are more skilled and more deliberate. They know their life is on the line; so, any gap given is death to the less skilled wanna be champion. Watch the lions on the discovery channel. They lion with the pride fights much harder than the one trying to take over the operation.
Sean