Blocks or Parries

[Senin]

A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.

The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.

Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.

 

[Tarot]

Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.

What a lovely thing to say about other schools.

Why is a successful parry rare? Do you have statistics on parries? Have there been some testing and research done on parries?

There are many things one can do after a parry, it doesn't have to be a punch. There is more to self-defense and the arts than punching alone.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Always keep an open mind, Martial arts techniques (many) will work for most times. Blocking and parries have a purpose. DUCKING works just as well, so is backing away.

NO two punches or strikes will always be the same. There will be times a block works...others times to just parry. There is NO solid rules for engagements (techniques that you must DO?). What works now, may not work tommorrw.

Study boxing and you will see blocks,parries,ducking,backing away,lots of movement. Blocking,parries, are some of the ways to survive an attack. NOT THE ONLY WAY.

Your training may differ from others,as well as your thoughts on certain techniques to use to defend yourself.

Blocking does work! So does Parries! Each has it's purpose,place and time for it to work for you. ...Aloha

-------------------

We love BLOCK parties, we love chinese DUCK, and we always back up in REVERSE. (an open mind is a head that was not blocked)

 

[exile]

A parry doesn't have to be a move distinct from a strike. If someone throws a righthand roundhouse at your head—a very common kind of untrained attack—and you turn 90º so your right shoulder is facing their centerline, use a righthand `inward block' to `parry' by using the `block' to strike their upper arm just below the shoulder and then, from your position very close to them at this point, use your conveniently chambered right hand to strike their throat under their jaw, then sure, you've parried their strike, but you've also positioned yourself for a finishing strike, or a setup for a finishing strike. This is a realistic interpretation of kata/poomsae sequences in which an inward `block' is followed by a `middle knifehand block'. The first block is a parry/strike and the second is a straight strike, and bingo—you walk and he doesn't.

If you think of all blocks as having this kind of versatility, combinable in different ways to yield different counterattacking scenarios, then you can add a whole new dimension to your fighting art...

 

[MattJ]

Senin -

Still learning nails it. This is not an either/or question. Blocks work well, and so do parries. Your description of a parry is, in fact, my description of a block. Anything that meets the incoming strike at a perpendicular angle with force is a block. Anything that meets the incoming strike at a more parallel angle with less force is a parry.

You are right that parries are not the best choice against a flurry of haymakers, but that is far from the only kind of attack there is.

 

[jks9199]

The definition of a block or parry will change with different arts and instructors. When I say "block", I mean a motion designed and intended to STOP the incoming attack (not necessarily stop dead on your block, but meeting force on force), damage the weapon, and create opportunities for counterattacking. "Parry" means a motion designed to redirect the incoming attack, and allow a counterattacks. They are often interchangeable in practice, but not always. (It's almost impossible to trap a limb you've blocked, for example.) You'll often find that a technique or kata taught at a beginner level with a simple block (say the classic full step, upward block, reverse punch combination) can be done equally well with an appropriate parry by more advanced students. That doesn't mean the first way (with the block) is now wrong, or "too defensive" -- it's just another way of applying the underlying principle (step in, stop the attack, and counterattack).

But both are very practical and very applicable to a real fight; I've done both with people fighting me for real. To say that a technique that's been passed down for generations and exists in multiple martial arts is "teaching losing" is making an incredibly huge leap... You say parries are "too defensive." What if that parry is used as you're stepping in and striking? (Open your eyes and watch a good boxing match... Maybe one of Ali's... I bet you see some parries.)

 

[Touch Of Death]

A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.

The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.

Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.

The angle of incidence is the only thing seperating a block from a parry physically; mentaly, your instructor may be on to something, but he just threw out the baby with the bathwater.
Sean

 

[Senin]

I think often times it is the terms that we use that gets in the way of explaining or understanding. Unfortunately, I say parry, you say block (or visa versa) and are meanings get mixed.

For example, in a boxing match, you would rarely (if ever) see a boxer use a box/parry (in for example the karate termonology). The closest thing a boxer uses to a parry (other that just putting his arms up to let the opponet hit his forearms) or would be another punch. You don't really see parrying in boxing. i hope I am not mixing my terms too much. Basically, humans are rarely fast enough to parry a real in-coming punch. Oh, in the dojo, we are plenty fast-- often because the punch is at half speed. But not usually in real life. Now that is not to say, I am against side-stepping or moving. But to parry, parry, parry, seems to be a losing proposition.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

A lot of what I've been taught, especially the past couple of years, is what is called a block or a parry, really isn't. I've been, to great effect even in a couple of "street" situations, training where the "prep" to the technique deflects the incoming attack and the block or parry is is actually the strike. Makes those preps really useful.

Jeff

 

[morph4me]

The definition of a block or parry will change with different arts and instructors. When I say "block", I mean a motion designed and intended to STOP the incoming attack (not necessarily stop dead on your block, but meeting force on force), damage the weapon, and create opportunities for counterattacking. "Parry" means a motion designed to redirect the incoming attack, and allow a counterattacks.
But both are very practical and very applicable to a real fight; I've done both with people fighting me for real.

This is how I define parrying and blocking. Parrying is also used to unbalance the attacker, because his attack doesn't land where he expected it to and he's usually not ready for that.

 

[jks9199]

I think often times it is the terms that we use that gets in the way of explaining or understanding. Unfortunately, I say parry, you say block (or visa versa) and are meanings get mixed.

For example, in a boxing match, you would rarely (if ever) see a boxer use a box/parry (in for example the karate termonology). The closest thing a boxer uses to a parry (other that just putting his arms up to let the opponet hit his forearms) or would be another punch. You don't really see parrying in boxing. i hope I am not mixing my terms too much. Basically, humans are rarely fast enough to parry a real in-coming punch. Oh, in the dojo, we are plenty fast-- often because the punch is at half speed. But not usually in real life. Now that is not to say, I am against side-stepping or moving. But to parry, parry, parry, seems to be a losing proposition.

You insist on starting from a bad premise, namely that parries don't work. And you're assuming that boxing is an adequate representation of a real fight... (That's a whole 'nother thread!)

Research boxing a little... You'll find that there are actually blocks and parries in boxing. They don't stand out for several reasons (very restricted targets involved, movement that accompanies them, lack of appreciation for counterfighting currently, are just a few of them) -- but they are there.

You're assuming that people aren't fast enough to parry an incoming punch. Someone must have been -- or the techniques wouldn't exist in martial training.

I suspect that part of your problem is some common poor training habits. Very few people ever really learn to work properly with a partner; they learn to pound a bag, they learn to "spar" or "rock-n-roll" or "thump", they learn kata or shadowboxing... But they never learn to work WITH a partner to develop a technique. I'll use a simple outward parry, since that's the topic, to explain. I think most of us can picture fighting left foot forward, and using the lead (left) hand in an outward/counter-clockwise circle to contact and redirect a right hand punch from our partner, then following up with a right hand punch. (Choose your own footwork -- but use some!) How do we go about learning this?

First, practice the motions in the air, no opponent. Figure out your balance, where your hands need to be, how deep you think you need to step and so on. (This is just kata training or shadowboxing in disguise.) Then... grab your partner. Set up at a REALISTIC range (this is vital!), and assign your roles. (He's punching, your parrying.)

The first few times -- your partner's throwing the punch easy, maybe half speed or less, with plenty of warning, maybe even on a command. You're shifting it off effortlessly because he's not making it hard for you. You ARE finding out how you have to step around him, about when you have to move to parry the hand and be in position to strike, and so on. One catch... YOU can't go full speed when your partner's going half speed. Y'gotta both play at the same pace!

After a bit (how long depends on your skill and how fast you're picking things up) -- your partner starts to pick up the speed and intensity. Now it's not so easy to move him and he's not giving you as much notice. It's getting trickier... but stick with it. Don't cheat the technique, and keep your speeds the same. With more practice, pick up the speed even more.

Finally, your partner is going almost full speed (or even full speed if your skill levels are there), no notice, and even varying the attack or the target he's punching at. And you're going just as fast... I bet you find out that you can parry a strike.

Lots of people are lousy partners; they don't throw good strikes or they make it too easy (or too hard!) for the person they're training with. They move at full speed when attacked at half, or they move at half when attacked at full. If you're feeding the technique, your job is to throw a good, effective strike that your partner MUST block/parry/trap or otherwise respond correctly to, or they get hit. (With good control, they shouldn't usually be hurt, though it remains a possibility.) If you're practicing the technique -- your job is to do THAT technique, not something else, not something that "works" or "feels right" and to match your partner's speed.

 

[MJS]

A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.

The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.

Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.

So, let me see if I'm understanding this.

1) Your teacher finds no use in parries, so he is assuming that nobody else will either?

2) Rather than experimenting and seeing if they will work for you, you're just going to dismiss them?

3) You're both assuming that nobody is fast enough to parry?

4) You insult other schools that teach parries. Have you seen every school that teaches them?

5) Because you don't see it in MMA, that means that its no good?

6) You're assuming that a parry is strictly just for defense?

Parries are in fact a very usefull tool. The FMAs use them quite a bit and with much success. Gunting or limb destruction is often done off of a parry. I've used them in sparring with success, I've used them when doing SD techs. and have had quite a bit of luck, and I've used them successfully off of a push. Something else to keep in mind...a parry, just like anything else, is a tool that we have available to us. Will a parry always be the best tool? No, but as I said above, I'm not going to throw it out because someone else may not be able to make it work. Before you discount something because someone else says it wont work, it may be a good idea to work with someone who does.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I think often times it is the terms that we use that gets in the way of explaining or understanding. Unfortunately, I say parry, you say block (or visa versa) and are meanings get mixed.

For example, in a boxing match, you would rarely (if ever) see a boxer use a box/parry (in for example the karate termonology). The closest thing a boxer uses to a parry (other that just putting his arms up to let the opponet hit his forearms) or would be another punch. You don't really see parrying in boxing. i hope I am not mixing my terms too much. Basically, humans are rarely fast enough to parry a real in-coming punch. Oh, in the dojo, we are plenty fast-- often because the punch is at half speed. But not usually in real life. Now that is not to say, I am against side-stepping or moving. But to parry, parry, parry, seems to be a losing proposition.

I'm confused. You state a human isn't fast enough to parry, but they're fast enough to block? What do you suggest people use to block a punch? If the hands are up, executing a parry is actually quite easy. You also state that in the dojo its easy because the punch is coming half speed. Actually, when I'm in the dojo, we progressively increase the punching speed. Sure we start off slow, but in the end, that punch is coming and if we don't move off line, block or parry, we're getting hit. Your last paragraph, you state "Parry, parry, parry." To me, this sounds completely defensive. Sure, if thats all someone is doing, yes, I'd say that doesn't make sense, but a parry with a simultaneous counter strike is very effective.

Mike

 

[351C]

Darn, parries don't work? Guess I'll just have to quit Hap Ki Do. All those locks and arm bars Im learning to do after a parry must not really work. In fact most of Hap Ki Do must be flawed. So I guess the best thing to do is stand there, shield youself as best you can and take a hit. I'm just a beginner but obviously I disagree a little bit.

 

[Senin]

So, let me see if I'm understanding this.

1) Your teacher finds no use in parries, so he is assuming that nobody else will either?

2) Rather than experimenting and seeing if they will work for you, you're just going to dismiss them?

3) You're both assuming that nobody is fast enough to parry?

4) You insult other schools that teach parries. Have you seen every school that teaches them?

5) Because you don't see it in MMA, that means that its no good?

6) You're assuming that a parry is strictly just for defense?

Parries are in fact a very usefull tool. The FMAs use them quite a bit and with much success. Gunting or limb destruction is often done off of a parry. I've used them in sparring with success, I've used them when doing SD techs. and have had quite a bit of luck, and I've used them successfully off of a push. Something else to keep in mind...a parry, just like anything else, is a tool that we have available to us. Will a parry always be the best tool? No, but as I said above, I'm not going to throw it out because someone else may not be able to make it work. Before you discount something because someone else says it wont work, it may be a good idea to work with someone who does.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I think you may have misunderstood me.
1- No, I don't think parries are useless. They may have value. If an oppenent is moving slowly.
2- Oh, I have experimented with them. I have used them practice of various martial arts. Not very practical.
3- Nope. I am not say NOBODY is fast enough to use them. I am sure Bruce Lee was probably fast enough to use 'em. And there are extraordinary people in all walks of life.
4- Sorry to insult those schools. No, I have not visited every martial arts school in the world.
5- No, it is not just because you don't seem them in MMA. You don't really seem them in boxing either. And, you rarely seem them (used successfully) in real fights-- unless the oppenent is really slow. For example, one might be able to use them against a drunk, or a older person.
6- Yeah.

And by block, I mean as when a boxer has his arms up and an oppent punches landing on the boxers forearms.

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike,
I think you may have misunderstood me.
1- No, I don't think parries are useless. They may have value. If an oppenent is moving slowly.

I disagree. I get the impression that you didn't have much luck with them, so you're discounting their effectiveness. My point is, is that you shouldn't assume that they're ineffective because you can make them work. Apparently, looking at the replies here, I'm not the only one that a) has had success with them, and b) finds use in them.

2- Oh, I have experimented with them. I have used them practice of various martial arts. Not very practical.

Can you expand on this a bit more? Again, as I said above, you're discarding them because you havent had luck. Perhaps if someone was to show the finer points of them, maybe you'd view them differently, then again, maybe not.

3- Nope. I am not say NOBODY is fast enough to use them. I am sure Bruce Lee was probably fast enough to use 'em. And there are extraordinary people in all walks of life.

So unless someone is as fast as Bruce, nobody can use them?

4- Sorry to insult those schools. No, I have not visited every martial arts school in the world.

So, perhaps if you were to visit a school with someone who could show you the value in them, you'd view them differently.

5- No, it is not just because you don't seem them in MMA. You don't really seem them in boxing either. And, you rarely seem them (used successfully) in real fights-- unless the oppenent is really slow. For example, one might be able to use them against a drunk, or a older person.

I beg to differ.
http://www.how-to-box.com/boxing/boxing_defense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing

6- Yeah.

Yes, a parry is a defensive move, however, upon parrying the incoming punch, a counter strike is launched.

And by block, I mean as when a boxer has his arms up and an oppent punches landing on the boxers forearms.

So, you're saying that this is how you want to defend punches? By letting them pound away at your arms? Sure, during sparring sessions, I've absorbed hits on my arms. However, its eventually going to start taking a toll. Also keep in mind that the padding on the gloves takes away some of the impact.

Mike

 

[Senin]

Hi Mike,

I think we might be walking a fine line hear with the parry/blocking thing. I will concede that a boxer may flinch outward when taking a punch, but pretty much he has his arms in and takes the punch on his forearms (if he cannot get out of the way).

You know, when I first took karate lessons as a kid I was taught "up block, up block, cross block, cross block, down block, down block" plus a few others. Those blocks were actually parries. Mostly useless in real fighting. Why were they taught? Because karate was watered down after WW2. (plus the fact that the samurai used to fight in armor, in which a block might have worked).

If a parry works, it is because the defender is incredibly faster than the opponent or pure stupid luck (or it is a school where the fight is choreographed). Please show me where these parries actually work elsewhere.

So, if I am in a fight, and I can't dodge the hit, and I have to take it somewhere, yeah, the forearms aren't bad. Bone and muscle. Odds are, he will hurt his hands before he hurts my forearms. And, I am not going to stand and take it, there will be retaliation.

Thanks for the discourse.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If we are saying that a block is some thing that stops the attack at the point where the two body parts meet and a parry is some thing that dose not stop the attack but rather moves the attack to a different position from its intended destination, then I must say that parries do work.
it is sometimes much easier to redirect (even a little) an attack than it is to stop it dead in its tracks especially if you are much smaller and weaker than your opponent

 

[Bigshadow]

IMO, if someone is fast enough to block, or fast enough to slip, or get out of the way of the punch, IS certainly fast enough to parry it. However, I believe parrying requires better self control than getting out of the way or blocking.

IMO not only are parries useful, I believe they are down right indespensible in the overall toolbox of abilities.

 

[bydand]

I think we might be walking a fine line hear with the parry/blocking thing. I will concede that a boxer may flinch outward when taking a punch, but pretty much he has his arms in and takes the punch on his forearms (if he cannot get out of the way).

Does this mean you train to approach an encounter with your own arms hanging at your sides? I would hope not, they should be up as well. Wow, already most of the way to a parry/block, so the argument of being quicker is gone.

You know, when I first took karate lessons as a kid I was taught "up block, up block, cross block, cross block, down block, down block" plus a few others. Those blocks were actually parries. Mostly useless in real fighting. Why were they taught? Because karate was watered down after WW2. (plus the fact that the samurai used to fight in armor, in which a block might have worked).

If a parry works, it is because the defender is incredibly faster than the opponent or pure stupid luck (or it is a school where the fight is choreographed). Please show me where these parries actually work elsewhere.

So, if I am in a fight, and I can't dodge the hit, and I have to take it somewhere, yeah, the forearms aren't bad. Bone and muscle. Odds are, he will hurt his hands before he hurts my forearms. And, I am not going to stand and take it, there will be retaliation.

Thanks for the discourse.

Quick question first then on to my thoughts.
Did you start this thread just to argue? You had to have known what the general response would be.

My thoughts: They are not the "be all- end all" but they are very useful. No I'm not lightening quick, yes they work.
As for showing you where they work outside of the dojo, I personally don't cart around a video camera and somebody to run it 24/7, and if I did, I still wouldn't post those types of clips. You still wouldn't believe it anyway.
Can I prove to you they work? Nope.
Do I care? Nope.

As long as you are comfortable with the training and your instructor, that is what matters, not what others you don't know think. But, the other side of the coin is the fact you are not going to convince those of us who kknow they are useful and good otherwise either.