benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Shizen Shigoku]

Wow, this is still being discussed!?

Has any new information come up? I thought all the facts have been laid out. Will further analysis yield any different results?

 

[Enson]

*sigh* Enson, the point Don was making that what is being done is not ninjutsu.

i understand the point don is trying to make... which is the same point he always makes... modern is not what is done in japan, and if we want to know the only source is x kan. does that about sum it up?

i think gmunoz's analogy of the taco says it best. the word ninjutsu has obviously taken on a life/meaning of its own in the states, by americans. the tacos are different, and i like the american version better. 'more tastey'!

peace

 

[Don Roley]

re: your experience with said schools. i don't know how since you are in japan and you said there are no such schools over there. "things that make you go humm?"
your post sounds like something sojobow would say and you therefor have no proof. you are so big on documentation. show me your membership card from rtms so i can see you have experience with this school. and i know you will say you were never a memeber and blah blah blah... but then how can you honestly say that you have experience in a certain ryu without actually studying it?

No, what I am doing is not the same as what Sojobow would do. I never said I was a member of rtms, but I do not have to be in order to see differences in what he, Bussey, Ron Duncan, Ashida Kim, etc do. I can look at a video clip of Wing chun and Aikido and say they are not the same, even though I do not study either.

But I have studied the tonsogata in Japan. GMunoz has not studied it AFAIK, nor studeid in Japan. Yet he and you have no problem stating that the ninjutsu in America is similar to that in Japan. I bet neither of you have ever even seen the tonsogata or could recognize it if you did. You lack the experience of studying it and are working under the premis that everything in the Bujinkan is ninjutsu. If you knew enough about the subject, you would know that they tonsogata is the taijutsu of the Togakure ryu and would understand the part it fills in the role the ninja needed to fill. Just as a cop needs some sort of control techniques for his unarmed art, the ninja needed certain things in theirs.

And speaking as a person who has studied the tonsogata of Togakure ryu ninjutsu in Japan- the stuff on the Robert Bussey tapes from Panther is nothing like it. It is not even very similar to Bujinkan as a whole with its "snap" and use of muscle. Ronald Duncan's tape is just plain silly and nothing like Togakure ryu. Ashida Kim, Nindo ryu, Frank Dux, Rick Tew, etc- never met any of them just like GMunoz has never met Hayes. But by the means that they chose to convey their message about their art, I walked away with the impression that they do not know what real ninjutsu is.

I have no problem with someone saying that their art is a modern form of ninjutsu with no ties to Japan as long as they are honest about their claims and everyone is clear that the two are seperate in what they do. I am making a fuss about the fact that you made the claim that Rick Tew studied and incorperated ninjutsu into his system. Not modern ninjutsu- just plain ninjutsu. You phrased it in such a way that made it sound like Tew had learned the stuff that is taught in Japan, and the truth seems to be that he has no background or knowledge in Japanese ninjutsu.

 

[sojobow]

Thought I should appropriately label the quoted material:
:bs:
Now, to address some specific points...

And you wanted to be a moderator. Why the constant insults?

If they don't use the term "ninjitsu" (which is a nonsense word anyway), then how are they neo-ninja?

I believe its been posted more than once that some Moderns no longer use the the MA term (Ninjitsu) because they grew out of it. Expansion.

I believe this claim fell apart in Dux' court case vs. Van Damme. But perhaps it's only his knockout and other records that were disproved. In any event, I find it curious that no one knew Dux (and Duncan, for that matter) were taching ninjitsu [sic] until after Hayes' books became popular and the ninja boom took off.

You're welcomed to believe whatever you want. Still has no basis in the discussion of trads verses neos. Just your opinion with no links to any truths or proofs.

Could you provide documentation of this, from a reputable Japanese source? After all, they are Japanese words, well, ninjutsu is, anyway.

Sure, start by looking at Shizen Shigoku's post containing the actual Kanji. Then (and you can use your toes and fingers) simply count the number of Combinations. Those with a mathmatical background can use the Counting of Combinations and permutation's Formula. But remember to add 1 to your computation.

If it's different, why not give it a different name? And again, I'd love to hear these "definitions" from a reputable source.

Its different from Togakura in that it has been expanded and concentrates more on efficience in Modern terms. What's the problem with the name? Has no physical or pyscological effect upon you. If you don't consider Shizen Shigoku a reputable source, there is no need in helping you.

 

[sojobow]

If they do not use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu", then they are not "neo-ninjitsu" groups and should not be discussed on this forum
I challenge you to prove this statement with independent verification. Gee, where's Mr. Busman when yah need him??

Please pay attention. Asked and answered. The proof is contained in the statement. What exactly needs verification?

 

[Don Roley]

If you don't consider Shizen Shigoku a reputable source, there is no need in helping you.

Not only do I have a problem recalling a post by Shizen Shigoku that would help your case, but based on your past history I doubt that you are representing what he said in a totally accurate manner. Using exact quotes would help instead of trying to dodge the issue.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think you guys need to quit bickering. Enson, This thread is beginning to serve no purpose...

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Don Roley: "Not only do I have a problem recalling a post by Shizen Shigoku that would help your case, but based on your past history I doubt that you are representing what he said in a totally accurate manner."

I agree. If you want to use me as a source, it would help to use direct quotes and a logical string of ideas to connect your generalizations with any specifics.

Sojobow: "Sure, start by looking at Shizen Shigoku's post containing the actual Kanji. Then (and you can use your toes and fingers) simply count the number of Combinations."

Wow, . . . just, wow. Look sir, as one with a strong mathematical background, I can tell you that this has nothing to do with math. And if it did, here is what the equation would look like:

nin 忍　＋　jutsu 術　＝　ninjutsu 忍術

Counting Theory is unnecessary. This is simple arithmetic.

Forget combination math, forget semantics; forget fantasy. Come back to earth for a couple minutes. Close your open mind a little before your brain falls out.

If you really do want to play around with combinatorics, then please show me the formula you used to arrive at 32 combinations.

For nPr = 32 or nCr = 32, what are the values of n and r, and what terms are included in each set?

I'll help you out:

The easiest way to arrive at 32 is 2^5 (each additional term doubles the number of possible combinations). But this means that there are five terms, and you are allowing for any combination of any number of those terms - including taking none of them.

A more complicated way of saying the same thing is 32 = sum(nCr), n = 5, r = {0,1,2,3,4,5};

where nCr = n!/[(n-r)!*r!]

Now, what does any of this have to do with ninjutsu?

. . .

I have no idea.


"And you wanted to be a moderator. Why the constant insults?"

He wasn't insulting you (not directly), he was calling what you said BS (and I agree with him). Attacking the words is not the same as attacking the person.



Again, read this: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287198#post287198 for more information.

Oh, and by the way, I don't consider myself a reputable source, and neither should you.

 

[sojobow]

Not only do I have a problem recalling a post by Shizen Shigoku that would help your case, but based on your past history I doubt that you are representing what he said in a totally accurate manner. Using exact quotes would help instead of trying to dodge the issue.

Posted here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17421&page=5

Re: benefits/drawbacks of modern?
I touched on this subject in the general section under Traditional/Neo:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...7198#post287198

As for the transliteration issue:

ninjutsu = ninjitsu only if you are using two different romanization systems. If you are being consistent, and if you are using the most commonly accepted way of transliterating Japanese, then they are vastly different.

nin = shinobi = 忍　= endurance, patience, stealth
jutsu = 術 = art or set of techniques
jitsu =　実 = truth; reality

That's why I think it's so funny (because of the irony if you follow me) that some of these modern/neo (read: non-authentic) styles call themselves ninjitsu. If you don't get the joke, I'm sorry.

I'm not even going to discuss effectiveness, or believing your art is superior on faith. I guess to the practicioner, those things would be benefits.

But the drawback remains, as heretic plainly stated - repeatedly (without being argumentative) that arts that were not created in Japan that have Japanese names (especially when they spell them incorrectly) are misleading.

For everything else I feel about this, please refer to the post I referenced above.

Thanks for your patience and understanding,

S.S.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Need additional help, let me know.

 

[sojobow]

Don Roley: "Not only do I have a problem recalling a post by Shizen Shigoku that would help your case, but based on your past history I doubt that you are representing what he said in a totally accurate manner."

I agree. If you want to use me as a source, it would help to use direct quotes and a logical string of ideas to connect your generalizations with any specifics.

Sojobow: "Sure, start by looking at Shizen Shigoku's post containing the actual Kanji. Then (and you can use your toes and fingers) simply count the number of Combinations."

Wow, . . . just, wow. Look sir, as one with a strong mathematical background, I can tell you that this has nothing to do with math. And if it did, here is what the equation would look like:

nin 忍　＋　jutsu 術　＝　ninjutsu 忍術

Counting Theory is unnecessary. This is simple arithmetic.

Forget combination math, forget semantics; forget fantasy. Come back to earth for a couple minutes. Close your open mind a little before your brain falls out.

If you really do want to play around with combinatorics, then please show me the formula you used to arrive at 32 combinations.

For nPr = 32 or nCr = 32, what are the values of n and r, and what terms are included in each set?

I'll help you out:

The easiest way to arrive at 32 is 2^5 (each additional term doubles the number of possible combinations). But this means that there are five terms, and you are allowing for any combination of any number of those terms - including taking none of them.

A more complicated way of saying the same thing is 32 = sum(nCr), n = 5, r = {0,1,2,3,4,5};

where nCr = n!/[(n-r)!*r!]

Now, what does any of this have to do with ninjutsu?

. . .

I have no idea.


"And you wanted to be a moderator. Why the constant insults?"

He wasn't insulting you (not directly), he was calling what you said BS (and I agree with him). Attacking the words is not the same as attacking the person.



Again, read this: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287198#post287198 for more information.

Oh, and by the way, I don't consider myself a reputable source, and neither should you.

I'm impressed!

 

[sojobow]

I think you guys need to quit bickering. Enson, This thread is beginning to serve no purpose...

I'm saying this openly versus sending you a PM. You should have long ago noticed that threads get locked in the Modern subsection because of trolling Bujinkan's and their Traditionalist coharts constantly entering personal attacks. You should have also noticed that the Modern's get alone quite well. I'm not suggesting that anyone from any other system outside of Modern be not allowed to post here. But I am suggesting that when and if a personal attacked is part of a Reply, the complete Reply be deleted. This will be somewhat difficult for you as you'll be deleting your own fellow school members and even deleting another moderator's constant attacks on 4 particular schools when these schools are not part of the subject being discussed.

Long story short - learn to hit the delete button and stop locking interesting threads.

 

[Bester]

So you are saying "Ninjitsu" means something like "Stealth Truth"?

Fine, call it that. Why lie about it's real origins, mislead the public into thinking it is what it is not (Japanese) and just call it something else?

Could it be that the "hodge-podge" "mix-n-match" that makes up these "Ninjitsu" systems just wouldn't sell without the "smoke and mirrors"?

In any event, you folks argue like a bunch of old women, and really appear to be missing the "maturation" that comes from serious immersion into the real arts. You know, those that have age long traditions extending back farther than 1940.

Now, here is a novel thought.
Why don't you folks get back to the main topic of this thread rather than continuing to rehash the fact that the trads think the neos are FOS and the neos think "ninja" is just a word and not necessarily a Japanese one at that?

Then again, more locked threads, and a few less trolls might help make the truth about all these arts public. In the mean time, I think I will stick to looking for a traditional school of "Ninjutsu" that is not just "smoke and mirrors marketing hype".

 

[Enson]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Enson
-MT Moderator-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good advice, which I sincerely hope a few folks will take to heart.

We recently suspended or banned 14 individuals over a 17 day period.
Let's not make it 20 in 20, okay?

- Bob Hubbard
- MartialTalk Administrator

 

[sojobow]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you. -Enson
-MT Moderator-

Real interesting Enson. I tried to add 4 individuals to the Ignore feature. 2 didn't work for some reason, 2 others didn't work because the message said they were moderators and couldn't be Ignored. I'll try again on the first 2.

Can someone help me out here? Serious answers. I've already been beat down for saying that what is known today as Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu actually originated in China during the Chinese Warring State Period. Evolved as it did, built upon as it was isn't my question. Now, what I'd like you big time Kanji experts to help me out with is this: Is the Kanji for "Shinobi" actually Chinese or Japanese or some offshoot of either?

Thanx.

 

[sojobow]

So you are saying "Ninjitsu" means something like "Stealth Truth"?

Nope. what i am saying is that just about every Modern school I've looked at the now uses or once used the term "Ninjitsu," used it with different definitions. One school as an example, simply used the term as a monitor for all of its techniques, philosophies etc. If a technique didn't demonstrate a degree of "invisibility," that technique was not considered part of its teachings. If a strike wasn't "concealed," it wasn't used. Just one example.

Fine, call it that. Why lie about it's real origins, mislead the public into thinking it is what it is not (Japanese) and just call it something else?.

The statement was presented as a "question" and not a fact. It was presented here for discussion as a possible "root" of what is commonly called Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu. One advantage of Modern schools in America is that we are not held prisioner to any "tradition." We are able to look to a root, and then move from that root to the 21st Century implications. The spectrum of what we look at starts at day one, then, we put to the test its use and efficiency to the modern battlefields. Along the way, we might find that someone else has misrepresented the War Arts use so we just discount that theory and move on.

Now, here is a novel thought.
Why don't you folks get back to the main topic of this thread rather than continuing to rehash the fact that the trads think the neos are FOS and the neos think "ninja" is just a word and not necessarily a Japanese one at that?

I agree with you on this one. Believe me, it took the wind out of my own sail to recently come to the conclusion that the "Ninja" no longer exist and hasn't existed since well before the restoration periods. All those new students wanting to become a "Ninga" are flat out of luck. We're all just mimiking what we "think" must have been the way of the shinobi. Who knows? do you? If in Japanese, there are no alphabets, as someone here said, then, how can you "mis-spell" a word?

 

[heretic888]

Now, what I'd like you big time Kanji experts to help me out with is this: Is the Kanji for "Shinobi" actually Chinese or Japanese or some offshoot of either?

I'm no "big time Kanji expert", but it is my understanding that the particular character combination of yaiba (blade) over kokoro (heart) is a specifically Japanese, post-Heian innovation.

I have read that the actual sound 'shinobi' had been used before and during the Heian period, but that it was written with different symbols (and thus had a different meaning).

 

[heretic888]

It was presented here for discussion as a possible "root" of what is commonly called Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu.

Ninjutsu had many "roots", some of which were Japanese in origin and some of which were not. Same thing can be said for any number of Japanese cultural traditions, or non-Japanese ones for that matter.

The spectrum of what we look at starts at day one, then, we put to the test its use and efficiency to the modern battlefields.

I sincerely doubt any of these neo-guys have "tested" their arts on the "modern battlefields".

We're all just mimiking what we "think" must have been the way of the shinobi. Who knows? do you?

Once again, this is a logical fallacy.

The truth is that no one really knows anything in life with 100 percent certainty. To twist this simple truth into the delusion that somehow everything is just anybody's guess is tantamount to an intellectual crime (if you know what I mean). Its the kinda crap the goofier postmodern writers get made fun of for nowadays...

If in Japanese, there are no alphabets, as someone here said, then, how can you "mis-spell" a word?

Have you been paying attention at all when this issue has been brought up?? :shrug:

Its a transliteration issue. "Jitsu" and "jutsu" are transliterations of two differnet kanji into English. Its not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

It would be akin to collapsing read and red into a single concept because, well, they sound "kinda alike".

 

[sojobow]

http://home.planet.nl/~polen050/shadow.wmv

 

[heretic888]

Ummmm..... okay?? :idunno: