Strangulation Techniques

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Genin Andrew

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Who here has been taught strangulation techniques, and how important are they in your art?

I was taught very basic strangulation techniques on saturday morning for the first time and also the anatomy of the neck and wrists and the best ways to apply such techniques. The strangulation techniques are very effective but icant see myself using them often. :idunno:

I learnt that along each side of your oesophagus run groupings of arteries and veins which carry blood to and from your brain, This is also the same on the back of your neck on each side, hence why you can feel your pulse when applying pressure under your jaw to the side. I was told that pressuring these arteries is alot more effective than blocking the windpipe. you can effectively kill someone alot faster blocking off the blood flow to the brain rather than blocking off the flow of oxygen.

At the base of your hand on the inside of your wrist is a small knuckle shape of bone, it is this part that is used to press into the arteries when applying the stranglehold. I was impressed by the effectiveness of these techniques and how many different wariations there are to applying a good hold with minimal effort. Have any of you experianced similiar teachings and how much focus is there on these techniques in your syllabus?

thanks
-andrew
 
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AnimEdge

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I dont think we have gone into the detail that you have but we have done liek the sides for blood front for air type stuff
 
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auxprix

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Chokes are very important in Judo. I've done them often and have had them done to me often.
Not only can you, as you say, kill someone faster with a blood choke, but you can decapacitate them quicker and reduce the chance of long term injury.

I would strongly warn against Air chokes. they are dangerous and inefficient. think about it. Fainting occures because the brian is not getting enough oxigen to support higher functions, so it shuts them down. If you are doing a blood choke, you are cutting off the oxigen directly. If you air choke, the opponent still has the air in thier lungs and the oxigen in the blood circulating. They can last for a long time on these reserves.

Also, air chokes hurt. Blood chokes, while uncomfortable, do not nearly produce the level of pain as pressure on the larynx (sp?)

On a side note, one of my senseis once decapacitated an armed robber with a bare choke (a choke unaided with clothing). The gun went off as the burgler lost consciousness, but sensei was well out of it's way. With a good, powerful, and accurate choke, the brain will begin to shut down almost instantly.

And they say Judo isn't effective for self defense...

BJJers often use their legs to choke. We do as well, but not to their extent. This tends to use the natural strength of the legs to constrict the neck. It's much less precise and therefore not as quick, but the added strength of the legs makes up for it.
 

bignick

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not only are you attacking the veins and arteries....but you are attacking the nerves that run along them as well, these baroreceptors when struck or disrupted cause instant drop in blood pressure to the brain...which is what knocks people out from the ol' "judo chop"

also, you will notice a difference in feeling between closing the veins or arteries...closing the arteries gives the lightheaded feeling, but closing the vein makes it feel like your head is going to explode...

finally, i believe the number given for a good solid choke is 2-6 seconds until unconciousness
 
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Genin Andrew

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Yes "air chokes" do produce a significant level of pain, when we train in them (which isnt as much as "blood chokes") we generally tend to 'fake' the choke, just applying the technique without the pressure and focussing more on flow and speed at getting the technique right.

I will never be one to question the effectiveness of Judo :) That post made all "Judo haters" question their antagonistic ways i'm sure. The level of power and strength in Judo techniques is an aspect of the art that martial artists will always admire. The weakness of the windpipe will always be a desired target thats why i favour a good quick knifehand blow across the front of the neck over most attacks.

keep the posts coming, you guys are giving some good in depth responses that myself and others can learn from.

thanks
-andrew
 

sojobow

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Genin Andrew said:
keep the posts coming, you guys are giving some good in depth responses that myself and others can learn from. thanks -andrew
In Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, it is called Shime-te or Shime Te. It is a complete section of the course in Strangulation/Constriction. You can do a google search on Shime Te a get an idea on how many techniques they use and how to do them correctly. A comprehensive section in my notebook.

My sensei had a moto: He who gets his choke in first - wins. It's true too. Learn to "tap out" fast as we practiced these techniques daily. A Bujinkan friend taught me one where you actually grab the lapel, flip over the Uke (whose on his knees) and slip underneath flipping the Uke on his back and choking him out automatically. Done fast, the technique works real well.

As I am taught that if you're on the ground, you most likely made a mistake somewhere, I find that most Shime Te can be performed standing up (accept the leg chokes). Jujitsu sites are very open with information. You'll find complete technique information. Good luck. Its a lot of fun.

One other thing: Its good to start wearing T-Shirts a lot when being social. Never know when someone will attack that shirt and tie.
 

Bujingodai

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we do shimewaza. vascular, airway, nerve and body.

I am a big fan of the itemi chokes as they are subtle and really require nothing at all for effort.
 

Enson

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we too practice them frequently. when it comes to air chokes i prefer to do a throat strike first. don't have to lock your hands up trying to close his windpipe. blook chokes are a favorite of mine in a grapple. they work faster than a air choke and then you win!

peace
 

bignick

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as people have said, air chokes can be very painful...but they take too long for me to want to use them, think of how long you can hold your breath...i can go at least a minute...now it's gonna be a lot less when you're struggling and using up oxygen...but it's still way too long for my tastes...

also, it brings in the hazard of crushing the windpipe...if you're windpipe is crushed and your not treated almost immediately...you're a goner...blood chokes work faster and are safer as well...
 

DuckofDeath

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auxprix said:
BJJers often use their legs to choke. We do as well, but not to their extent. This tends to use the natural strength of the legs to constrict the neck. It's much less precise and therefore not as quick, but the added strength of the legs makes up for it.

Rigan Machado has just come out with a book appropriately titled The Triangle--200+ pages of nothing but ways of slapping the triangle choke (sankaku jime in judo) on someone. Highly recommended.
 

DuckofDeath

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sojobow said:
A Bujinkan friend taught me one where you actually grab the lapel, flip over the Uke (whose on his knees) and slip underneath flipping the Uke on his back and choking him out automatically. Done fast, the technique works real well.

This sounds a lot like one of the "rolling chokes" taught in BJJ. Tori and uke are on knees facing each other. Tori reaches across with his right hand and and slides his fingers deep under uke's right lapel up against uke's neck and takes a palm-up grip. Tori then snaps uke's head down with his left hand while bringing his right forearm up under uke's throat and rolling to the left, rolling uke over also. It generates a lot of constricting torque and can put your lights out fast. The only time I've ever momentarily blacked out while practicing chokes was with this one--happened so fast I didn't have time to tap, but since we were releasing the chokes immediately after rolling over, I quickly recovered and no one was the wiser.
 

sojobow

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DuckofDeath said:
This sounds a lot like one of the "rolling chokes" taught in BJJ. Tori and uke are on knees facing each other. Tori reaches across with his right hand and and slides his fingers deep under uke's right lapel up against uke's neck and takes a palm-up grip. Tori then snaps uke's head down with his left hand while bringing his right forearm up under uke's throat and rolling to the left, rolling uke over also. It generates a lot of constricting torque and can put your lights out fast. The only time I've ever momentarily blacked out while practicing chokes was with this one--happened so fast I didn't have time to tap, but since we were releasing the chokes immediately after rolling over, I quickly recovered and no one was the wiser.
That't it. The one I was referring to. Thanks. I need to put it in my notebook. Someone's gonna be in trouble tonite! Do you remember Avatar.
 

sojobow

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bignick said:
also, it brings in the hazard of crushing the windpipe...if you're windpipe is crushed and your not treated almost immediately...you're a goner...blood chokes work faster and are safer as well...
Personally, I don't think lower belts should be allowed to practice any windpipe chokes or that we should allow windpipe chokes to practices upon ourselves. You can lose your entire dinner in someone's face is you use your knuckles or spear fingers on a certain point of the throat.

You can also have a delayed heart attack/stroke on the way home. Practice chokes with caution.
 

Enson

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if lower belts don't train in choke techniques do they at least train against them? i think anyone that is willing to learn should. then again that is how our school in structured.

peace
 
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AaronLucia

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Wev'e done a few chokes, mainly 1 with the hanbo, but other than that not too much.

Although iv'e only been training 3 months, so...
 

DuckofDeath

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sojobow said:
That't it. The one I was referring to. Thanks. I need to put it in my notebook. Someone's gonna be in trouble tonite! Do you remember Avatar.

I remember Avatar well and hope he shows back up on the revived Dux Forum. Is he the one who showed you the choke, the one you're going to use the choke on, or both?

Also, once you've snapped uke's head down with your left hand and started rolling over to your left, take your left hand off his head and overhook his right arm with your left arm, sinking your left arm down under his arm pit to anchor the choke.
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Hello Genin Andrew,

Chokes are an integral part of judo submission techniques, along with arm-bars.

In Judo, chokes are of three types: Pain application, air deprivation, and blood deprivation. Sometimes depriving uke of air and blood can be one in the same. We are taught in Judo that the more tired uke (your opponent) is, the quicker the choke will put him out. Air/blood deprivation chokes are usually used with clothing, and pain chokes can be used without clothing.

A good example of a pain choke is Hadaka jime, the naked strangle. A pain choke is good because you get quick results, and uke doesn't have to be tired for it to work.

NOTICE: All chokes are potentially dangerous, which is why you are not taught shime-wazas (chokes) in judo until the age of 13, so you are both smart enough, and physically developed enough to be able to use a choke responsibly!

Here are three good websites explaining the dangers of the Judo choke:

http://www.fightingarts.com/content01/judo_choke.shtml

http://www.ebji.org/akeem/choke.html

http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

Remember, becareful with all choking techniques.




Genin Andrew said:
Who here has been taught strangulation techniques, and how important are they in your art?

I was taught very basic strangulation techniques on saturday morning for the first time and also the anatomy of the neck and wrists and the best ways to apply such techniques. The strangulation techniques are very effective but icant see myself using them often.
nixweiss.gif


I learnt that along each side of your oesophagus run groupings of arteries and veins which carry blood to and from your brain, This is also the same on the back of your neck on each side, hence why you can feel your pulse when applying pressure under your jaw to the side. I was told that pressuring these arteries is alot more effective than blocking the windpipe. you can effectively kill someone alot faster blocking off the blood flow to the brain rather than blocking off the flow of oxygen.

At the base of your hand on the inside of your wrist is a small knuckle shape of bone, it is this part that is used to press into the arteries when applying the stranglehold. I was impressed by the effectiveness of these techniques and how many different wariations there are to applying a good hold with minimal effort. Have any of you experianced similiar teachings and how much focus is there on these techniques in your syllabus?

thanks
-andrew
 

sojobow

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DuckofDeath said:
I remember Avatar well and hope he shows back up on the revived Dux Forum. Is he the one who showed you the choke, .....
Yes.
 
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