benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Don Roley]

once we have understand these accomplishments, we can either 1.) Keep on just practicing this hobby of traditionalism, or, 2.) move on to understanding what has developed SINCE and ADDING to the body of knowledge.

Which is what "traditional" arts like the Bujinkan have done with Hatsumi's book on Knife and Pistol Fighting, etc.

But of course, there was a body of knowledge that preceded that. This is the big disadvantage of the modern arts I know of that just try to piece together what they do.

 

[heretic888]

This is one thing I appreciate about Modern Martial Sciences, as the Shinobi gathered as much knowledge as possible and in existance during his lifetime, seems the Moderns are doing the same thing.

Alright, I'm just gonna chime in a moment here.

I'm gonna have to agree with Don in this regard. While my knowledge of budo is quite lacking in comparison to others, the vast majority of "modernist" martial arts groups that I have observed (not all mind you, but most) --- whether "ninjutsu" or not --- have this tendecy to apply a cut 'n paste, mix 'n match approach to studying budo. In one of his early books on ninjutsu, I believe Hayes called them "patchwork quilt" martial arts.

Now, in the short term, this kind of approach might be useful for the athletically or tactically gifted. In the long term, not so much (especially to those who weren't particularly great fighters to begin with).

In any event, the outcome is that they pick up a few "neat tricks" from whatever art they are studying, without ever really having any kind of deep knowledge of the art when they left. Now, that's all well and good --- and it might even be a lot of fun --- but, you cannot claim for a second this is anything analogous to what the Sengoku Jidai shinobi were trying to do.

I cannot possibly see an understanding of "natural movement principles" resulting from such a pick-and-choose approach, and I sincerely doubt it will ever result in something like mushin.

But, hey, whadda I know?? :asian: :asian:

 

[sojobow]

Which is what "traditional" arts like the Bujinkan have done with Hatsumi's book on Knife and Pistol Fighting, etc.

But of course, there was a body of knowledge that preceded that. This is the big disadvantage of the modern arts I know of that just try to piece together what they do.

Yes, we have noted how you keep re-defining "traditional." If Hatsumi himself defines Ninjutsu as the study of how the Ninja accomplished what they did in warfare, then one could only summise that those studing Ninjutsu are limited to the study of a long-lost artform. While those studying Ninjitsu study the tactics and accomplishments before, during and after the age of the Ninja/Shinobi up to and including today. Hatsumi is more than capable of inventing another additional school to make up for this limitation if that is what you're trying to impose on us. I have no problem with anyone, including your Soke, adding additional Ryu-ha. It's all good.

There is no "piecing together" anything in the modern arts. It's all "battle-tested" and constantly evolving (e.g., a science). No reason to be so defensive, we're all trying to master that which grows faster than we can keep up with.

 

[Don Roley]

Yes, we have noted how you keep re-defining "traditional."

That is probably one of the best examples of the pot trying to call the kettle black I have seen.

For the purposes of martialtalk and the discussion here "traditional" refers to arts that can prove to be found in, or come from, Japan. Nothing more, nothing less. What Hatsumi does is not like a fly trapped in amber. It is a river that has a long flowing past that adapts to the form the path takes. Your attempts to say that Hatsumi says things he does not and define his art as you would like is not going to go over well with many people.

There is no "piecing together" anything in the modern arts. It's all "battle-tested" and constantly evolving (e.g., a science).

opcorn:

I do remember Bester asking you about this matter of proving your art and proof of same. You seem to have ignored that. IIRC, all of your teacher's claims about his experiences in the CIA, the secret Kumite, etc have been unprovable or debunked. So how the heck can we say that his techniques have been "battle tested?"

 

[gmunoz]

Don, please stop! This is the modern side for pete's sake! Why the belittling all the time? Can you please stop?

 

[Enson]

Yes, we have noted how you keep re-defining "traditional." If Hatsumi himself defines Ninjutsu as the study of how the Ninja accomplished what they did in warfare, then one could only summise that those studing Ninjutsu are limited to the study of a long-lost artform. While those studying Ninjitsu study the tactics and accomplishments before, during and after the age of the Ninja/Shinobi up to and including today. Hatsumi is more than capable of inventing another additional school to make up for this limitation if that is what you're trying to impose on us. I have no problem with anyone, including your Soke, adding additional Ryu-ha. It's all good.

sojobow, this post would be better discussed on the trad. side. please keep your opinions based on your own art.
the same for everyone.
peace -mt moderator-

 

[tshadowchaser]

MOD WARNING
Gentelmen
Please keep the discussion POLITE and RESPECTFUL

tshadowchaser
Sheldon Bedell

 

[sojobow]

That is probably one of the best examples of the pot trying to call the kettle black I have seen.

For the purposes of martialtalk and the discussion here "traditional" refers to arts that can prove to be found in, or come from, Japan. Nothing more, nothing less. What Hatsumi does is not like a fly trapped in amber. It is a river that has a long flowing past that adapts to the form the path takes. Your attempts to say that Hatsumi says things he does not and define his art as you would like is not going to go over well with many people.

Well, lets see if us Moderns can help you out with a couple of definitions. EG FYI:
1. * http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~mcweigel/r...tml#16.ninjutsu

2. * Some guy named Kaith Rustaz says (and since he seems to own, me know agrue with the Rustaz - I get kicked out occasionally for strange reasons):

"What is "Traditional Ninjutsu"?
By our definition, it is the arts taught by the current Grandmaster, Dr. Maasake Hatsumi. It also includes those groups which split off from Dr. Hatsumi but still remain true to the core ideals.

Please see the Ninja FAQ for more in-depth descriptions.

There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.
This forum is for the discussion of the history, techniques, concepts and ideas that relate directly to these groups.
__________________

"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.""​

*
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do remember Bester asking you about this matter of proving your art and proof of same. You seem to have ignored that. IIRC, all of your teacher's claims about his experiences in the CIA, the secret Kumite, etc have been unprovable or debunked. So how the heck can we say that his techniques have been "battle tested?"

since it is well known that sojobow does not discuss his school nor anyone or anything directly related thereto, me know see yo point unless you're just trying to keep interjecting that which you dream of being.

I'm only pointing out that even the Great Hatsumi Sensei defines Ninjutsu as the artform delving into "how the Ninja accomplished what they did" centuries ago. don't get mad at me since Hatsumi wrote this definition and not I. Since he, himself is now incorporating modern mechanisms into the Literatures, seems only logical that even HE recognizes the BENEFITS of Modern and the drawbacks of Hobbies (as defined by the IRS). Have fun. don't be so serious. He said it not me. Hope this helps out Enson too.

 

[Cryozombie]

since it is well known that sojobow does not discuss his school nor anyone or anything directly related thereto, me know see yo point unless you're just trying to keep interjecting that which you dream of being.

Sojobow.

If you are not here to discuss your school, or anyone or anything related to it... that would include, but not be limited to, the history of ninjutsu/jitsu, tactics, strategy, techniques, etc...

Then your only purpose here would be... what exactly? To be disruptive?

 

[Enson]

Sojobow.

If you are not here to discuss your school, or anyone or anything related to it... that would include, but not be limited to, the history of ninjutsu/jitsu, tactics, strategy, techniques, etc...

Then your only purpose here would be... what exactly? To be disruptive?

i have to agree with technopunk... sojobow one of the purposes of modern ninjutsu is to discuss our schools and techniques/tactics/ etc. what exactly are you doing on this side. your post should be in general if you are not going to share anything about your school.

peace

 

[heretic888]

I'm only pointing out that even the Great Hatsumi Sensei defines Ninjutsu as the artform delving into "how the Ninja accomplished what they did" centuries ago. don't get mad at me since Hatsumi wrote this definition and not I.

Prove it. Cite a source....

.... yeah, I know, guys. But, hey, first time for everything, right??

Since he, himself is now incorporating modern mechanisms into the Literatures, seems only logical that even HE recognizes the BENEFITS of Modern and the drawbacks of Hobbies (as defined by the IRS).

Yup. Taking things outta context must be a regular hobby of yours, neh?

 

[Enson]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MT Moderator-

 

[sojobow]

Sojobow.

If you are not here to discuss your school, or anyone or anything related to it... that would include, but not be limited to, the history of ninjutsu/jitsu, tactics, strategy, techniques, etc...

Then your only purpose here would be... what exactly? To be disruptive?

I do believe the thread topic is "benefits/drawbacks of modern?" Not benefits/drawbacks of DRN. You all know that if we start a discussion with the name "Hanshi" is every posts, all hell will break out. Locked threads and all. Don't think I'm being disruptive at all. We can discuss Modern without discussing any particular school. Tis possible, is it not?

 

[sojobow]

Prove it. Cite a source....

.... yeah, I know, guys. But, hey, first time for everything, right??

I always liked that about you. No matter what, you always agree with me.
Try this as a source - just for you now as you know, I don't like revealing my secrets. But, since you've read every book, you already knew.

"Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi: The Historical Ninja,..............................As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I always liked that about you. No matter what, you always agree with me.
Try this as a source - just for you now as you know, I don't like revealing my secrets. But, since you've read every book, you already knew.

"Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi: The Historical Ninja,..............................As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

You're quoting "History and Tradition". That book was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

And to think, I was just beginning to like him.

 

[gmunoz]

Sojobow,

Although I do not accept your philosophies regarding the origin of ninjutsu - some things you say are just flat out whack in my opinion, I do respect the fact that you do have an opinion and aren't hesitant to articulate them. It's okay to disagree with me and I think it's okay to disagree with you. Just want to say that keep up the posts. I find them interesting sometimes actually. I enjoy diversity. Whether I find something as true or not, I can formulate my own conclusions based on history and personal investigation.

I say we move beyond all the bashing of everyone trying to convince others that "their way" is the only way. I think we can still progress forward with diversity. It's like eating fish... eat the meat and spit out the bones!

 

[heretic888]

You're quoting "History and Tradition". That book was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes.

Not to mention, "ninjutsu" was used somewhat liberally as a term in the 1980's....