Bad mouthing Kata, and other martial arts training methods

ppko

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Sarah said:

Yep, one thing we do a lot is break down the Hyung's and learn the application for each move and the pressure points you are working on etc etc. It is really interesting and gives meaning to the moves, so when we are doing them we do them with more commitment and power, you can imagine someone there and it is no longer just a bunch of moves in sequence.
I also agree with the point you made about know one kata well. There is a saying that goes something like:

'Fear not a man that knows a thousand kicks, fear the man that knows one kick and practises it a thousand times a day'

Also what is this Sanchin Kata sounds interesting??

I learned Sanchin in Ryukyu Kempo it is a breathing kata. Who is your instructor and what group is he with, I am with DKI. Are either one of these your instructor.
Paul Hinton
Self-Defence Systems
59 Ferry Rd
PO Box 323
Thames
011 64 7 8624971
[email protected]

Lance & Ava Strong
7 Lush Avenue
St Johns, Auckland
New Zealand
011 649 528 2363
[email protected]



PPKO :asian:
 
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DeLamar.J

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Bammx2 said:
When I teach,I break things down to almost the"molecular" level.
When I was a yung'un...I used to ask "why" and all I got was...because!
I need to know more,so I started learning about the human body,i.e....physiology,kineseology, sports medicine and so forth.
I learned what was putting undue stress on the body and how better to help people adapt to thier best abilities.
My syllabus for my first belt(yellow) is based in traditional basics so I can show people where the things I am teaching are comming from and then I can help them make the transition to thier own freestyle application.
I have a slight mix of applications...I like japanese base stances and linear movement as opposed to circular. I like savate kicking techniques as opposed to tkd. And I like western boxing combined with some japanese hand techniques. Oh yea....the muay thai knees and elbows
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I understand completely about the whole "skipping the katas" part as not making the art whole and Lord knows I will never downplay tradition...God bless those who came before us!
But personally...as I got older and recieved a couple of permanent injuries,I realised there were traditional things I could no longer do...and that just just sucked!
So I learned to adapt ways around those problems,which meant letting some things go,and now I try to pass that education on the best I can.
I still go step by step,and to be honest...I lose most of my students in the first syllabus because its so damn monotonous and repetative.But it tests thier patience and makes damn sure they have a good grasp on the basic body mechanics and movements to achieve the choices of freestyle movements as they see fit.
Damn I am long winded
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Where most classes are and hour...mine are 2. I will explain down to the very last detail I can and give both theoretical and practical applications.....not just "because".
I cater to the individual,not the masses,the best I can.
Good fighters are nice...but I like to train better teachers.
This is the short version of how I teach!
If I can answer anything else...please ask!
Sounds cool. You have your own style of teaching. :ultracool
 

Sarah

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ppko said:
I learned Sanchin in Ryukyu Kempo it is a breathing kata. Who is your instructor and what group is he with, I am with DKI. Are either one of these your instructor.
Paul Hinton
Self-Defence Systems
59 Ferry Rd
PO Box 323
Thames
011 64 7 8624971
[email protected]

Lance & Ava Strong
7 Lush Avenue
St Johns, Auckland
New Zealand
011 649 528 2363
[email protected]


PPKO :asian:

Havent heard of these instructors, I train with Steve Wallace in Hamilton, we train in mostly in TKD, but I think he has also trained in Karate. However I use to train in Wing Chun Do with Ian Waite who also teaches Ryukyu Kempo, is this Kata from Kempo??
 

ppko

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Sarah said:
Havent heard of these instructors, I train with Steve Wallace in Hamilton, we train in mostly in TKD, but I think he has also trained in Karate. However I use to train in Wing Chun Do with Ian Waite who also teaches Ryukyu Kempo, is this Kata from Kempo??
I am not sure where Sanchin comes from I will find out however.

Best Regards

PPKO:EG: :mad: :waah:
 

ppko

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here is some stuff on Sanchin I did not have a chance to read through it all but from what I saw it looked alright

History - Kata Sanchin

Sanchin is generally accepted as the oldest kata in Okinawan Karatedo. It's origin has been said to be related back to the stationary breathing exercises performed by Buddhist monks at the original Shaolin monastery.
These breathing exercises were developed by Bodhidharma to provide a regimen for the monks so that they would not fall asleep during long hours of meditation. The folklore says that these basic exercises were then expanded by succeeding Shaolin monks into a method of empty-hand combat so they could defend themselves and their monastery from invaders.

Sanchin is said to be similar to the original Iron Monk Form, Tei Shao Mu Tshien. Kanryi Higaonna brought a version of Sanchin to Okinawa in 1879 after studying Gung Fu in Fukien province in South China for nearly 15 years. Also for Kanbun Uechi it was one of the three original Pangainoon kata that he brought from China.

Sanchin was originally performed from one rooted stance. The inclusion of steps forward and backward were added later. Originally Sanchin was practiced with open hands. The original version of Sanchin Kata Higaonna Kanryo Sensei taught, was executed with three steps forward, a 180 degree turn, four steps in that direction, another 180 degree turn, one step forward and then one step backward. This version of Sanchin kata was practiced and taught by another Higaonna Kanryo Snesei's senior student Juhatsu Kyoda. Kyoda Sensei was a founder of To'on Ryu Karate-Doh. Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju-ryu, altered Sanchin to closed fists and developed his version of Sanchin kata with no turns but with three steps forward and two steps backwards.

Sanchin translates as "Three Conflicts" or "Three Battles" and is often referred to: mind, body and spirit. It is also that: posture (stance), tension (muscles) and proper breathing technique are in conflict until practiced, understood and applied. Therefore becoming harmonious and working in unison with each other.

Through Sanchin practice, beginning practitioners create the "Iron Shirt" and are ready to perform and execute advanced movements and techniques, Sanchin brings these together to create a state of enlightenment. Sanchin is a widely practiced kata, with minor variants in Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Isshinryu, Shito ryu and in Shorinjiryu.

In Naha-te derived Karate, Sanchin Kata was historically the first kata taught at the 10th Kyu/white belt level and forms the core of Karate systems such as Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu.

Kanbun Uechi, the founder of Uechi Ryu, felt that Sanchin Kata was so critical, that he required his students to study it for several years before progressing to the other kata.

Sanchin teaches neither new techniques nor fighting skills. It's purpose is said to be esoteric. Sanchin requires a lifetime of training. It involves deep tension breathing known as ibuki and precise body movement or tai sabaki. The different types of breathing are revealed at different stages in the learning of the kata. Many Sensei believe that Sanchin represents the true essence of Karate-do, both spiritually and physically and leads to ki development.

The basic step can serve as a throw, the basic strikes can be aimed at a variety of targets, and the circular motions have many applications in grappling, joint locks and breaking holds. The mere presence of the specialized Bushiken fist should inspire students to consider targeting strikes against a great many weak areas of the body.

Although Sanchin is a superficially simple drill, performing it correctly requires understanding on many levels. The details of body position and stance are easiest to learn; mastering the blocks and strikes or the steps and turns takes longer because all of them must be performed from one's center, with the participation of both the mind and the whole body. But Sanchin performed with only perfect motions is only half a kata; the whole exercise involves the intense concentration of mushin and specialized Sanchin breathing, which serves to protect the martial artist and clear the mind.

Understanding then integrating all these aspects of Sanchin takes years; perhaps the most interesting thing about Sanchin is that during those years it teaches itself. With a few words about the purpose of the movements, concentration or breathing, and occasional comments from an instructor, student's kata develop in all of their depth with practice. Once students have a solid understanding of the kata, it encourages them to think about the basics they have learned and apply them in many ways, in different situations, to meet a variety of needs.

Naha-te derived styles require the proper and consistent practice of Sanchin Kata to promote strong ki development, catharsis on physical, emotional, and mental levels, and breath control.

The only stance used in Sanchin is Sanchin-dachi. When in a Sanchin-dachi, the shoulders must not be lifted, the spine must be straight, your chest must be open and your stomach muscles must be tightened. Your chin must be drawn slightly towards your chest, this enables the wind pipe to be most effective when inhaling and exhaling. The gluteus maximus (buttocks) muscles must also be tightened, but do not make too much of the often seen exaggerated lifting of the pelvis. This lifting in itself causes the shoulders to cave in, thus again affecting the breathing. There should be no unnecessary restriction placed on the body, e.g.: hips not on the same plane as the ground (horizontal).

From musubi-dachi no kamae, do not step forward in Sanchin-dachi, but rather simultaneously sink your body and slide your right foot in a circular fashion into migi-Sanchin-dachi. Ensure that the heel of the front foot is in line with the toes of the rear foot. The width between the feet should be the width of your hips. Your toes should be gripping the floor by spreading the toes as far as possible and grip the floor like the roots of a tree. This is known as tako ashi. Both feet should be turned inward, and the knees must be bent directly over the toes. The knees, as in all stances, must be pointing in the same direction as the toes. The eyes must be fixed firmly forward as if gazing at a far mountain. The chest must remain open so that breathing is not restricted.

[Sensei Henderson: in the version we practice the first motion is a step backward with the left foot in a circular motion placing the karateka in the same position as described above, all other things above applicable.]

When stepping forward in Sanchin-dachi, the feet never lift up off the floor. The movement must be of a sliding nature with the feeling that only one sheet of paper can slide between your soles and the floor. This movement is termed suri ashi. Keep your muscles tight when moving and use a circular sliding foot movement. Focus must always be placed on the heel when moving backwards in Sanchin-dachi, it must not lift off the floor - a common error. The muscles of the body must be tense during the entire duration of the kata and the breathing must be co-ordinated with all foot movements.

[Sensei Henderson: In the version we practice the last statement is true for the parts of the kata that are executed in Sanchin-dachi, however not applicable in the other portions.]

Sometimes the mind will drift off, actively keep it alive and stimulated and always keep your tanden full of strength. Do not rush in your practice and remember consistent practice, focusing on the above, will make your Sanchin-dachi a natural movement for you.

[Sensei Henderson: The above is a true statement with regards to all kata exercise]

At the early stages of Sanchin, training focus must be placed on the coordination of the breath with the correct execution of the techniques. The simple techniques of the kata involve only basic punches, chest blocks, and circular blocks.

Each technique demands the karateka to focus under extreme tension. Although the techniques are elementary, the breathing is decidedly complex. Due to the slow ibuki breathing, Sanchin is a long kata to perform in terms of elapse time. At the end of the kata, the air remaining in the karateka's lungs is expelled in three sharp burst.

[Sensei Henderson: This last closing breathing technique is not practiced in our version but is replaced by one continuous, concentrated exhale.]

In some styles, when a student is tested on Sanchin, an upper rank delivers multiple blows to the student's body whose muscles are tensed. This is known as Sanchin shime testing.

[Sensei Henderson: This practice is not followed in our school.]

Isshinryu Master, Tatsuo Shimabuku stated there was not any discernable fighting application for Sanchin Kata, and its purpose was exclusively to develop muscle tension and conscious breathing.

In 1962, Jui Meng, a famous Shaolin Monk, stated that "the lungs are reservoirs of air, and the air is the lord of strength. Whomever speaks of strength must know of air."

Many Okinawan Karate authorities criticize the regular practice of Sanchin Kata for health reasons. Sanchin is a pseudo-isotonic and pseudo-isometric exercise which enables one to achieve and sustain a high heart rate with low impact. The deep tension breathing in Sanchin also opens the lungs, increases blood circulation, opens the capillaries, strengthens the heart muscle, massages the lymph system, and opens epidermal glands. However, Sanchin has also been blamed for the early deaths of many Okinawan karate masters, manly from Naha-te based karate styles, which practice Sanchin rigorously.

Sanchin should always be practiced with dynamic tension and students must be careful to proceed slowly when learning this kata and clalify its purpose. An already healthy individual will not experience any adverse effects from Sanchin, but an individual prone to heart problems should exercise extreme caution.

As a spiritual and mental exercise, Sanchin provides numerous benefits. It induces memory, both nuero-muscular and cerebral, of the feeling of being either hard or soft. This is beneficial because it enables one to obtain an awareness of inappropriate muscular or mental tightness or looseness. Sanchin also serves as a strict Zen exercise of breathing and mushin (no-mindedness) and induces calm, awareness and egoless confidence. It also develops ki by focusing the energy into a single-minded purpose.

[Sensei Henderson: This is the essence of Kata for all kata exercise and not solely Sanchin.]

From an historical perspective, Shinan Dr. Kori Hisataka, the founder of Kenkokan Karatedo and teacher of Shinan Donivan, may have learned Sanchin Kata from his friend and training partner Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju Ryu Karatedo, and modified it to the version used today with our own style. Some exponents of Naha-te derived kata would argue that our version of Sanchin is not Sanchin Kata at all, because of the lack of slow ibuki breathing or isometric muscle tension.

[Sensei Henderson: This argument seems to be one of magnitude only and not whether the principle lessons of the kata remain. Our version of Sanchin still focuses on all the principle lessons and includes the same elements as the original kata or other kata versions.]
Best Regards
PPKO :EG: :mad: :waah:
ps all info came from http://www.henderson-ryu.net/Sanchin.htm
 

cfr

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My take on katas is this:

If you beleive in them, nobody can talk you out of them. You will defend they're practice and beleive in them whole heartedly. You will cast aside any arguement you hear against them and have lots of good reasons as to why they should be practiced.

If you dont beleive in them nobody can talk you into them. They will appear to be a silly waste of time and your head will never shut up about how rediculous they are. You may have even @ one time been willing to give it a shot, but just cant seem to beleive in they're value no matter who says how benificial they are.


I beleive in them... but only for other people. I know lots of people here really cant imagine training without them and I think thats great. I beleive that if you beleive in them and that they can help your training, you should do them with enthusiasm. If however, you just cant seem to see the benifit to spending 5 - 10 minutes learning to do the perfect downward block while turning to your 6 into the perfect cat stance, you should go elsewhere. IMO that doesnt mean you're a bad apple, have a short fuse, have no patience, or have no business learning how to fight in the first place. It could mean some of that, but not always. It could also mean that you've read about too many people that did them for years, got good at them ,beleived in them, spent time perfecting them, and then one day said, "this is lame." It could mean that you've read about too many people that have gone before you that invested lots of time and then thought of it as a waste. One more point, just because people like me dont like kata doesnt mean we dont understand why you do them. All too often its thought by the pro kata people that people who dont like kata "just dont understand". I think its possible to understand but still not like them.

To me, this is something for each individual to answer for himself.
 
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DeLamar.J

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cfr said:
My take on katas is this:

If you beleive in them, nobody can talk you out of them. You will defend they're practice and beleive in them whole heartedly. You will cast aside any arguement you hear against them and have lots of good reasons as to why they should be practiced.

If you dont beleive in them nobody can talk you into them. They will appear to be a silly waste of time and your head will never shut up about how rediculous they are. You may have even @ one time been willing to give it a shot, but just cant seem to beleive in they're value no matter who says how benificial they are.


I beleive in them... but only for other people. I know lots of people here really cant imagine training without them and I think thats great. I beleive that if you beleive in them and that they can help your training, you should do them with enthusiasm. If however, you just cant seem to see the benifit to spending 5 - 10 minutes learning to do the perfect downward block while turning to your 6 into the perfect cat stance, you should go elsewhere. IMO that doesnt mean you're a bad apple, have a short fuse, have no patience, or have no business learning how to fight in the first place. It could mean some of that, but not always. It could also mean that you've read about too many people that did them for years, got good at them ,beleived in them, spent time perfecting them, and then one day said, "this is lame." It could mean that you've read about too many people that have gone before you that invested lots of time and then thought of it as a waste. One more point, just because people like me dont like kata doesnt mean we dont understand why you do them. All too often its thought by the pro kata people that people who dont like kata "just dont understand". I think its possible to understand but still not like them.

To me, this is something for each individual to answer for himself.
Some people just prefur to train in the manner they fight. But that still doesnt mean that most wont benift kata if they learn it PROPERLY. I know alot of guys who used to fight full contact and would do sanchin about 30 minn before there fight and said it makes alot of difference in there performance. That kata is also better than foldgers in your cup in the morining if you know how to do it properly.
 

tshadowchaser

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That kata is also better than foldgers in your cup in the morining if you know how to do it properly.
How verry true. I knew one gentelman who only did Sanchin Kata. He was a fine physical speciman well into his sixties and had abdominal muscles that looked like he came out of a Golds gym. He always said it was the best feeling to do it early in the morning.
 

ppko

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tshadowchaser said:
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That kata is also better than foldgers in your cup in the morining if you know how to do it properly.
How verry true. I knew one gentelman who only did Sanchin Kata. He was a fine physical speciman well into his sixties and had abdominal muscles that looked like he came out of a Golds gym. He always said it was the best feeling to do it early in the morning.
I do sanchin every morning along with all my other katas and they really do help to energize you

PPKO
 

Sarah

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ppko said:
I do sanchin every morning along with all my other katas and they really do help to energize you

PPKO
I would love to learn more about this Kata, do you know of any videos?? I am defiantly a visual learner.

 
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DeLamar.J

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I dont think you can learn Sanchin from a video. Alot of it is very internal, the breathing is the most important part. The movements are easy and can be learned in a day or two, but the internal part will take you years. I dont belive you can learn it from video but who knows.
 
S

ShenChuan_Ninja

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I am not familiar with Katas personally, since my art doesn't teach them. I personally have no interest in them. I find that most times in a fight, the guy blindsides me, or throws a punch when i may not be expecting it. Like Muhammad Ali said "Everyone has a plan until they get hit" and i see Katas as a "plan". But, on the other hand, i believe they might help with foot work, and yeah they do look cool i think :) . But as far as being practical, im not so sure. i also understand them as being a "stepping stone", but alot of times, its much harder to unteach, than it is to teach. If a student gets too caught up in forms and katas, he may find himself waking up with a crowd around him/her.

In Shen Chuan, we have "sets", usually 10-15 techniques. They include all different attacks from standing, and ground fighting. But what we hope to get from these pre-designed sets is the muscle memory of countless techniques. If someone grabs my collar and punches at me, it doesn't mean im going to react like i would from number 9 in the green belt set. Hopefully, what i hope to achieve is the spontanious aspect of Shen Chuan. Not "knowing" what im going to do until i do it. The person attacking usually opens up opportunities against himself everytime he moves a muscle!

But, whatever floats your boat :)
 

Lisa

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Kata, simply put is not for me.

I started my MA training doing karate and learning kata. I guess I never "got" its significance. To me it was like learning dance steps. As much as my instructor may have tried it just wasn't in me to see much more then that. No ones fault but my own. I know other martial artists that can truly see the importance of it and I am glad for them. No need to bash what someone else enjoys just because it doesn't suit me.

I guess as Adam put it... it just doesn't float my boat.
 
R

rmcrobertson

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Regrettably, not everything in the world is simply a matter of personal preference and individual opinion.
 
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DeLamar.J

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rmcrobertson said:
Regrettably, not everything in the world is simply a matter of personal preference and individual opinion.
Yep, If something is hard or to challenging people dont want to do it. To bad for them I guess, because they will never truly learn martial arts styles like karate.
 
S

SMP

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I have never been a big fan of Katas or forms. pinions (because I am a slow learner) but I am a firm believer in their necessity. They have been very helpful in developing the mental/chi sides as opposed to the physical. Now I look at forms as having the opportunity to have multiple mental fights without the physical abuse. (yes we still do a lot of sparring) Further once in a tournament I did a series of moves that worked perfectly winning the match and the devision. It wasnt until I watched the match on video did I realize the combination came right out of a pinion.
 

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I have to be honest.With regards to using kata to learn the building blocks of combat, I think it is almost useless.
My experience of Katas in traditional MA's (TKD,Karate,Shaolin KF) was alot of solid immobile stances, telegraphed punches thrown from the hip, often with a lunge step, and blocks which required a retracting move before an extended one. Plus a whole lot of beautiful but impractical animal movements, double strikes,jumping kicks etc.
Application was often only taught verbally.eg; "this is to block a front kick" or if the technique was demonstrated, it was against a slow tellegraphed attack.
SOME of the moves would be practised in 1 step sparring.Again against slow single technique attacks, where you might do 2 or 3 movements while your willing partner stands there and lets you do it."Good" dojos would have you refine these techniques till you could perform them against a full speed attack actually aimed near your targets.But generally without resistance , combinations or follow up attacks against you.
From there you jump to sparring, and find yourself wondering "why cant I use those blocks from my kata? Am I just too slow?
And is there anybody out there who actually uses Horse/cat/bow/pigion toe/crane stances when they freespar?
Can any of you relate to what I'm saying here?
I found this to be an extreamly frustrating and confusing experience.Even though I was the best at kata in my school, and the sharpest, fastest techniques, I would often lose to opponents far less skilled then I was in tournaments because I couldn't apply many of my techniques in a practical manner.
Then I started Muay Thai.
NO katas.
1 step sparring was used with light contact and always aimed to your targets.i.e. your partner actually TRIES to hit you.First with single techniques, then against combinations. Then you would take one area of your defence and have your partner throw random attacks.First slow then building up in speed.
The techniques were always simple and practical with a minimum of waisted movement.Your partner always to a fighting stance immediately after throwing the technique.Never just standing there while you do a bunch of moves.
You would be given alternatives on what to do in various circustances and always taught to keep yourself guarded against follow up attacks.
Techniques are practised in the air,in the form of shadow boxing, but always with realistic foot work,and using your own intelect to imagine an opponent before you and "fight" him in the same way that you would spar.
Which is quite different to Kata.
AAAAAAH Im out of time . have to go and train.
 

Marginal

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One of the problem with the perception of kata comes from not being able to seperate the technique from the training tool. For example, when someone says "If you get in a fight, you'll punch from the hip and get clobbered." They're missing the positives that punching motion in the kata introduces. Chambering at the hip etc all encourages you to keep your elbows in, even when you move to free sparring. You're not still punching from the hip then, but the exaggeration gets the principle across.

Same thing with stances. Do you fight from a static stance, or specifically from a horse stance etc in free fighting? Nope. Doesn't mean you don't hit on them while you're in motion even if it's briefly.

Even if you blithely discount those, it's about the same as discounting wrestling drills, NHB stances, boxing footwork etc. It doesn't make sense. The're all just the means to the end, not the end in of theselves. If you were losing in tournaments it wasn't because you weren't able to use the techniques, it's because you couldn't see the forest for the trees, and the people who could see the bigger picture excelled where you stagnated.
 

Drag'n

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Those are all good points.
And I'm sure some of you do use more practical steps in the process of taking your kata moves to an applyable level.No doubt I had alot of bad teachers.None of my traditional teachers had been in a realistic confrontation and it showed in their teaching methods.But before I did MT I was too naive to recognise the difference.Sadly I think my experience was a very common one among traditional martial artists.
After MT ,every dojo I visited reeked of impracticality.I'm not trying to say MT is the best and everyone should do it.Far from it. But MT did open my eyes to the faults in the teaching methods common to traditional MA.
The argument that understanding a kata takes years is not a good argument for the use of it as a SD training tool.Quite the opposite.
Hiding techniques within katas, and stylising their movements may have had a good purpose in fuedal societies where ordinary people were banned from martial training or to keep their fighting secrets from enemy spies.But today any Joe can go to a MMA or kick boxing gym and learn the most effective techniques, proven and tested in countless full contact matches,through the most efficient training methods.They learn how to fight FAST.And they dont get the benefit of the deeper spiritual and character developing purposes behind traditional arts.They're tough , like to fight,and are itching for a chance to prove how dangerous they are.Indeed some of them are a big danger..to society that is.
The reason I'm so critical of kata is because I've seen too many dojos teaching rediculous moves from katas against telegraphed unrealistic attacks,and poor students who havent had the experience to know any better get sucked into thinking these moves will actually work.
I waisted too many years/money/ sweat/ blood/trying to perfect BS defensive techniques based on hearsay of their effectiveness.
I'm also concerened about the direction that some modern MA are taking .I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.Have you tested them against a trained fighter?Do you have the confidence in your art to try?
If we want the traditional values and ideals to survive I think we have to really put our methods to the test and bring them to a compatible level with modern fighting systems.
Truth is I love practising kata.But only as a means of self perfection.Its like meditation in motion for me, and it has many benifits.But I've never seen anyone who could convince me that kata is an essential tool for learning how to fight.But I'm always open to new possibilities.Maybe someone will someday prove me wrong.I hope so.I'd love to teach kata someday.
But for the moment I can only speak truthfully according to what I have seen and experienced.
 
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