Archangel M
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What about relationships w/fellow students? That can effect the class dynamic as well.
Attracted to the teacher?
- Thread starter Knives
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Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
How you act is ultimately up to you, but know that by acting on it will change the environment of the school and your role in it, regardless the outcome.
As a female instructor myself, I will tell you right now that I will never date a student. Like JKS and Arch have both mentioned lately, when someone has authority over another person, the relationship is going to be "weird" and there are going to be consequences. This is not making martial arts something special, I believe it stands for any teacher student or coach athlete relationship. I am not going to date a student and then deal with the issues that will bring- disrespect on the floor that is only meant as playful teasing, hurt personal feelings when correction is given in training, perceived favoritism seen by other students. The list goes on and on. My professional reputation is worth more to me than dating one of my students. Period.
Now.... say Mr. Right walked through that door and happened to be wearing a yellow belt. Say he says he wants to take me out and I am interested. I would have to be VERY interested because I would tell him if he wants to take me on a date he can no longer be my student, no matter how the date goes. If you are willing to take this risk then go for it. But understand, your training will never be the same.
As a female instructor myself, I will tell you right now that I will never date a student. Like JKS and Arch have both mentioned lately, when someone has authority over another person, the relationship is going to be "weird" and there are going to be consequences. This is not making martial arts something special, I believe it stands for any teacher student or coach athlete relationship. I am not going to date a student and then deal with the issues that will bring- disrespect on the floor that is only meant as playful teasing, hurt personal feelings when correction is given in training, perceived favoritism seen by other students. The list goes on and on. My professional reputation is worth more to me than dating one of my students. Period.
Now.... say Mr. Right walked through that door and happened to be wearing a yellow belt. Say he says he wants to take me out and I am interested. I would have to be VERY interested because I would tell him if he wants to take me on a date he can no longer be my student, no matter how the date goes. If you are willing to take this risk then go for it. But understand, your training will never be the same.
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
Yup. I bet I have seen about half a dozen relationship begin between students. All of them ended poorly and in every case either one or both people quit martial arts.
It changes the dynamic. It very likely will be a hard road to go down, so just really make sure it is worth it to you.
Archangel M
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Great points. Im not arguing FOR or AGAINST class relationships. I don't really think there is anything right or wrong with them per se. They just come with risks...as does any decision. Just be aware of them and be willing to live with your decision.
Same issues -- though to a bit of a lesser extent. I would suggest again that the student balance the risks... Would they continue to be comfortable in class with someone who dumped them? Or simply wasn't interested? Did you ever ask someone out in a college or high-school class, and when they turned you down, find the class to be a little uncomfortable? Or change the dynamics in the class?
chungdokwan123
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You've encountered a rather interesting situation, haven't you?
1st point: There's nothing sexier than a pretty woman in a MA uniform. Resting solely upon that notion, the natural inclination would be to suggest..........hit it..........and with a loud Giyap.
Yet there is a more important component to your conundrum. I agree with what seems to be the majority of opinion here that a relationship with the instructor will undoubtedly change the dynamic of the class.......at least to some degree........at least for a short while. It can be accommodated by all, but that depends primarily on how you and the instructor handle the situation. If the instructor is respected enough that she will be given the benefit of the doubt that no favoritism will tolerated in any event, then this could work out.
2nd point: What you have to sort out is if this is a mere infatuation or something of more substance. If it is only a fleeting fascination, then you have to consider the possibility that it is not worth the likely headaches that will result....for all concerned.
I like this short and sweet comment:
I've come to see that the main regrets one has in life are the chances you don't take. The flip side to that bit of wisdom is that those chances you take do affect other people to some degree.
Therefore, put enough time and thought into what this really means to you and decide what this truly represents.
I'd be willing to bet that there are any number of people on this forum who would like to suggest that they've plowed this particular field before. They'd also likely relay the fact that you will unearth one hell of a lot of rocks.
Why?
Because people like to watch the farmer work, and they're often jealous of the field he is plowing.
Archtkd
3rd Black Belt
That's an interesting perspective. I wonder what many dojang owner, parents, attorneys, insurers, judges, educators, sports regulators and psychologists would say about that. A good instructor, we would agree, helps a student become a good martial artist by training them a couple of hours, two to three times a week, for a number of years. A bad instructor, many of us understand, could cause a student permanent physical or psychological damage in a lot less time.
i tend to agree with archangel on this...i have a ton of respect for my coaches, but as much as i like martial arts as well as eastern culture & history, i usually relate to my coaches in a very western context. anyway before i get into a ramble on the subculture of martial arts, i don't think an MA instructor has any more or less influence on a student then a football coach has on his athletes. classical MA "wisdom" makes the student far too subservient to his instructors. yes, the student needs the instructor's expertise, but the instructor needs students to keep his school open.
my grappling coach holds two 7th dans, one in judo & one in jujitsu. he prefers to be called coach rather then sensei, & really dislikes the title "master". he'll usually just shrug & say "everyone is a master of something". it's much easier for me to train with people like this, i think it shows a much more realistic approach to the student/teacher relationship at least as it exists in the modern western context. by this i mean that being accepted as a student no longer means living in the dojo & swearing off all other instruction. the nature of the relationship is not the same here & now as it was at the origins of martial instruction, yet some want to treat it the same.
jf
my grappling coach holds two 7th dans, one in judo & one in jujitsu. he prefers to be called coach rather then sensei, & really dislikes the title "master". he'll usually just shrug & say "everyone is a master of something". it's much easier for me to train with people like this, i think it shows a much more realistic approach to the student/teacher relationship at least as it exists in the modern western context. by this i mean that being accepted as a student no longer means living in the dojo & swearing off all other instruction. the nature of the relationship is not the same here & now as it was at the origins of martial instruction, yet some want to treat it the same.
jf
Archtkd
3rd Black Belt
I think we might be getting into a semantics jam here and getting off the track of this thread. That could partly be my fault.
When I write about instructors, teachers, masters or coaches, I'm referring to the modern type of well trained experts that many of us here in the U.S. know: Teachers who care for and respect their students. This teachers can be called by different names.
In more than 20 years of practicing Taekwondo in the U.S and overseas, I have not, and hope never to meet, a teacher, who expects me to be their serf, servant, or sworn disciple. I even dislike "modern" Taekwondo teachers who expect their juniors to teach and automatically help them run dojangs, without compensation of any kind.
When I write about instructors, teachers, masters or coaches, I'm referring to the modern type of well trained experts that many of us here in the U.S. know: Teachers who care for and respect their students. This teachers can be called by different names.
In more than 20 years of practicing Taekwondo in the U.S and overseas, I have not, and hope never to meet, a teacher, who expects me to be their serf, servant, or sworn disciple. I even dislike "modern" Taekwondo teachers who expect their juniors to teach and automatically help them run dojangs, without compensation of any kind.
Archangel M
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EXACTLY!
I don't think that comparing a MA's instructor to an attorney, psychologist, judge or parents equates.
In the far east, the master student relationship is patterned after the Xiao Jing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao_Jing ideals of loyalty to a social order where everyone knows their rank.
Back in the 80s, there was one dojo in my town where the students could not attain the higher ranks until they had *proven* their loyalty to the master...who would take them to a bar, start a fight, and have the student finish it for him.
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Archtkd
3rd Black Belt
When a thread spins in so many directions it's easy to be misunderstood. My reference to insurers, dojang owners, attorneys, psychologist, judges and parents in my last post, was meant to imply those groups of people generally expect martial artists instructors and athletic coaches to have a higher professional duty of care when handling students/clients in their charge.
In another post I argued that the relationships that many people have with martial arts instructors or athletic coaches could be compared to those that people sometimes form with professionals such as attorneys, doctors or psychologists. Those professions bar or discourage formation of romantic relations with clients for various reasons, many of which might apply to martial arts instructors and athletic coaches. Also many good martial artists and athletic coaches also put in as much, if not more, time and effort to acquire their skills, as members of many regulated and licensed professions.
Jenny_in_Chico
Black Belt
Consider this, people...where the heck are we supposed to meet eligible dating partners? If we can't date people from work, and we can't date people from any outside activity that we really care about (such as martial arts), and we can't date people we meet in a professional capacity (our doctors, lawyers, etc) then we are left with sleazy bar pickups or the internet.
My advice is this: don't date someone with whom there is a disparity in power (don't date your sensei, your professor or your boss). Feel free to date anyone else, as long as there are no rules against it. And throughout the whole process, act like an adult. If you date someone in your dojo, don't send them special little looks across the mat or eagerly volunteer to be their technique dummy. Keep everything in its place...you are there to train, not to hook up.
My advice is this: don't date someone with whom there is a disparity in power (don't date your sensei, your professor or your boss). Feel free to date anyone else, as long as there are no rules against it. And throughout the whole process, act like an adult. If you date someone in your dojo, don't send them special little looks across the mat or eagerly volunteer to be their technique dummy. Keep everything in its place...you are there to train, not to hook up.
KELLYG
2nd Black Belt
Here are my 02 worth. I think that people place too much importance on status inside a Dojo, who is what belt level. If you are attracted to your instructor and feel she is attracted to you as well, and both are adults and single I say do what your heart tells you do. I think that Master level Martial artists are knowledgeable it their area of expertise but they do not hold the same sway that a doctor, lawyer, or your direct boss does over your life. They are just people there is nothing mystical about it.
blindsage
Master of Arts
If people don't see the potential for conflict in an instructor-student relationship, then those people are being willfully blind.
If individuals think that they could handle it and be mature so everybody should be able to do the same, then individuals are projecting context that may or may not (more likely) be there.
If individuals think that they could handle it and be mature so everybody should be able to do the same, then individuals are projecting context that may or may not (more likely) be there.
Archangel M
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Exactly. Most dating advice you see these days tell people to pick up hobbies/activities in order to meet people with similar interests.
Archangel M
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I think that people are manufacturing an equivalence between martial arts instruction and other professions that isn't there IMO.
All of life is risk/reward.
